Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 fletch137 Oct 22, 2008 7:57:01	I confess, I've had a hard time accepting the idea that some martial powers are limited to once per day. While I see the game balance issue, my mind won't accept a fighter saying "whew, I'm going to need a nap before I try that again." An alternate idea I had was to allow at-will use of otherwise daily or encounter powers, but to instead charge healing surges for them. In effect, these advanced powers are physically taxing and a fighter (or rogue or warlord or whatever) could exhaust himself by pushing himself to the limit. What do y'all think of that idea, and what do you think would be an appropriate cost for each power? Say, two healing surges for an encounter power and three for a daily? One for an encounter, two for a daily?
#2 malkav666 Oct 22, 2008 8:16:16	Wouldn't let them use healing surges in place of encounter daily charges. What I may consider is the following though: As using your encounter and daily powers is physically and mentally exhausting. A character who is in dire straights and really wants to push the envelope may channel her/his very lifeforce into their actions and burn HP and surges to get additional uses. To get an additional use of an encounter power A character may expend a healing surge and take damage equal to their base healing surge value (not surges per day but the actual mount healed value). To get the addition use of a daily power a character must spend 3x healing surges and take damage equal to their bloodied value. Hit point damage taken by channeling ones life force into abilities may not be healed by any means until the character has rested for at least 24 hours. The following restrictions apply to using the channel lifeforce rules exception: You may not use this ability to cast any power or ability that is currently in effect. For example, if your character casts a spell with an effect that has a duration that has not lapsed you may not use this feature to cast it again. This is to prevent the stacking of abilities with durations of encounter or other ongoing effects. (or to prevent mages from getting two flaming spheres out at the same time). So if any remnant of an ability is still in play you may not use this ability to cast it a second time. (even if that remnant is a bonus to rolls). No double dipping! Thats what I would do if I had to make a rule to allow more than one use of dailies. It is punishing enough that they wont do it often as it has drawbacks, and the only obvious loophole I could see is taken care of by not allowing duplicate effects in play simultaneously. love, malkav
#3 Seeker95 Oct 22, 2008 8:37:16	Although I am confident there are many ways to abuse this suggestion... Rather than martial powers being "use and lose", perhaps they could belong to a "power pool" where you have so many points that you can use before a recharge, and can allocate them however you wish on encounter powers, but when they are gone, you must rest. Your choices in allocation are limited to the powers you selected at each respective stage of advancement. The size of your pool would be equal to the combined levels of all the powers you selected. At 7th level, you would have three encounter powers worth 11 "points" (1+3+7). That could let you use the same 3rd level power 3 times if you want. Mana points / Power points / whatever you want to call them. This way you don't have a memory problem, but instead have an energy limitation.
#4 malkav666 Oct 22, 2008 8:43:49	Although I am confident there are many ways to abuse this suggestion... Rather than martial powers being "use and lose", perhaps they could belong to a "power pool" where you have so many points that you can use before a recharge, and can allocate them however you wish on encounter powers, but when they are gone, you must rest. Your choices in allocation are limited to the powers you selected at each respective stage of advancement. The size of your pool would be equal to the combined levels of all the powers you selected. At 7th level, you would have three encounter powers worth 11 "points" (1+3+7). That could let you use the same 3rd level power 3 times if you want. Mana points / Power points / whatever you want to call them. This way you don't have a memory problem, but instead have an energy limitation. smells strangely psionic ;)
#5 Alas Oct 22, 2008 8:52:55	How about using milestones to recharge dailies? As it stands, every milestone earned allows characters an additional "magic item daily power" activation. Perhaps every second (or third?) milestone could allow an additional use of a class-based daily power. The idea here is that parties who really push themselves to keep going dig down into the deep reserves. Another way to justify it is that they're packing more than "one day's worth" of adventure into their day.
#6 Nightshade Oct 22, 2008 11:45:50	How about using milestones to recharge dailies? As it stands, every milestone earned allows characters an additional "magic item daily power" activation. Perhaps every second (or third?) milestone could allow an additional use of a class-based daily power. The idea here is that parties who really push themselves to keep going dig down into the deep reserves. Another way to justify it is that they're packing more than "one day's worth" of adventure into their day. I was going to suggest something similar. I have been in games where we have 2 action points left over, used them when necessary but had to take a extended rest cause our dailies were out and our healing surges low. Waste of action points. Maybe we could use an action point 1/day to replenish 1 power that has been expended, whether that be an encounter or daily is up to the player. This can be used in addition to the action point you can use to take another standard action per encounter.
#7 Alas Oct 22, 2008 12:04:23	I have been in games where we have 2 action points left over, used them when necessary but had to take a extended rest cause our dailies were out and our healing surges low. Hmm... the interplay of surges and other resources gives me another idea. I'd be supportive of a houserule that allows a daily power or two to refresh when a character is out of healing surges. I would prefer to reward "running on empty" over straight-up spending healing surges to regain dailies, because then it's more like the party is playing in overtime, rather than blitz playing. It'd recognize that the recovered firepower comes with the risk of having nothing to fall back on.
#8 Altivec Oct 22, 2008 12:13:32	Maybe we could use an action point 1/day to replenish 1 power that has been expended, whether that be an encounter or daily is up to the player. This can be used in addition to the action point you can use to take another standard action per encounter. That nerfs the special paragon abilities of some classes to spend an action point to regain encounter powers.
#9 fletch137 Oct 22, 2008 12:29:12	It also seems counter-intuitive. The character can do more *because* he’s exhausted? I picked healing surges because they are the games currency for fatigue (such as the wight’s energy draining ability). By losing healing surges, you’re basically tiring yourself out. Game mechanics aside, that’s really the flavor I like for allowing additional uses of abilities. Y’all did have some good points, though, which have helped me modify my initial theory. This is the prototype rule that I’ll be going into this weekend’s game with: Characters using martial powers will be able to gain extra uses of those powers at the cost of healing surges calculated on a sliding scale. In all cases, the first one is free, but each additional use of that same ability within the same encounter (for encounter powers) or the same day (for daily powers) will cost one additional healing surge. A fighter, for example, could use his first level encounter power once during an encounter with no cost. A second use of that same power would cost him 1 healing surge. A third use, during the same encounter, would cost 2 surges, and so on. Technically, it will be possible for a martial character to use a single daily power four (or more) times a day, but he shouldn’t expect much healing as he wears himself out. I’m open to arguments, but am looking forward to trying this out on my group Saturday. I’ll get back to you with the results.
#10 Altivec Oct 22, 2008 13:01:06	Why are martial powers fundamentally different from other power sources? My paladin Kithaeron uses divine power source, but it's not as if Pelor himself is granting Kit a power at the time he uses it. It is just a daily or encounter power Kit has.
#11 fletch137 Oct 22, 2008 13:17:36	Yeah, that bugged me too. All of the paladin's abilities are listed as 'divine' and I can only envision a Joan of Arc type character who's battle abilities come exclusively from God rather than from any knightly training. As a DM, I'd probably be open to a player declaring some particular paladin ability to be martial rather than divine and would allow him the same option to exhaust himself by using it multiple times. Same for multiclassed powers. As long as an ability has the "martial" descriptor, I would allow it to take advantage of this houserule. On the topic of the divine, though, I'm really liking Seeker's 'mix-n-match' idea and can see myself invoking that houserule for divine powers to give those characters a different playstyle too. I don't have any divine users in my group, though, so I'm not sweating it too much.
#12 Tharag_Bocc Oct 22, 2008 14:39:38	Instead of thinking of daily/encounter martial powers as being a resource that becomes "exhausted", you could try and approach it from a different direction. Think of limited use martial abilities as being high difficult and/or situational techniques. Such a warrior doesn't use his daily/encounter powers more often because the opportunity to do so just never presents itself. Alternatively, maybe such abilities are more luck than skill. Such a warrior is always "trying" to for the limited power effect, but more often than not the result is an at-will power. Power source is more about flavor than mechanics. Having every class use the same power structure is part of the elegance of 4th edition. Personally, I have no desire see "power source" mean a class has to be built and/or function differently (I can go play 3rd edition for that kind of design). Yeah, that bugged me too. All of the paladin's abilities are listed as 'divine' and I can only envision a Joan of Arc type character who's battle abilities come exclusively from God rather than from any knightly training.QUOTE] Again power source is flavor. A fighter trains every day to hone his skills so that when battle comes he'll be ready. A paladin prays every day and when battle comes trusts in his deity to guide his hand. Even a paladin with a fighter like training regiment is likely to say that he only does so because by exhausting the body is a way to break down the barrier between his physical body and the spiritual power upon, or even if his powers seem mundane the paladin will still praise his deity for blessing him with talent to perform such exploits.
#13 Alas Oct 22, 2008 15:00:57	Concerning "running on empty": The character can do more *because* he’s exhausted? My suggestion was grounded almost entirely in metagaming. A party that has naturally run out all of their dailies and healing surges has theoretically put in a full day's work, and should go take an extended rest. If however the players are on a roll and tell me, "Aw, just one more chamber," then a recharged daily power would be a sort of cookie/pick-me-up in recognition of the fact that they're operating beyond what's expected. In all honesty, I doubt I'll ever see my group in the sort of marathon session that would allow us to try out this idea. Definitely looking forward to hearing how your experiment turns out!
#14 Neutronium_Dragon Oct 22, 2008 15:06:03	Treating martial powers as 'special' in this way will also create game balance problems - martial suddenly becomes a far better power source than any of the others because hey, you can out-power everyone else (and recover from it too)! Moreover, the logic behind arcane and divine powers being limited while martial isn't doesn't wash either - spells and prayers aren't Vancian anymore; if a martial character can 'overexert' themselves this way, then an arcane or divine character should be able to too.
#15 Altivec Oct 22, 2008 15:46:33	Treating martial powers as 'special' in this way will also create game balance problems - martial suddenly becomes a far better power source than any of the others because hey, you can out-power everyone else (and recover from it too)! Moreover, the logic behind arcane and divine powers being limited while martial isn't doesn't wash either - spells and prayers aren't Vancian anymore; if a martial character can 'overexert' themselves this way, then an arcane or divine character should be able to too. Agreed.
#16 Seeker95 Oct 22, 2008 15:59:28	Treating martial powers as 'special' in this way will also create game balance problems - martial suddenly becomes a far better power source than any of the others because hey, you can out-power everyone else (and recover from it too)! The original question was within the context of martial powers. That does not mean the solutions we come up with are martial-only. Give the solutions a fair review in the context in which the problem was shared.
#17 fletch137 Oct 22, 2008 16:06:59	Option A is, of course, go ahead and let them exert too. If that makes sense in your campaign, go for it. Option 2 is to find other ways to differentiate those power sources so that they all play differently. I’m aiming for Option 2. While martial characters with this option would be more on-the-spot decision makers, I’d like to see arcane casters become more “pre-planning” based with increased spell options but still limited usage once they’ve decided which spells they’ve prepared. That’ll be my next goal but we’ll see how this Martial change goes before I get too crazy. To be fair, I don’t see this as being overly powerful, but I won’t know for sure until I see it on the table. I predict this will make martial characters better at a short work day, but I’ve seen what happens when characters start running out of healing surges and it ain’t pretty. I suspect that will be the deciding factor.
#18 psychotic_robot Oct 22, 2008 16:12:15	At 7th level, you would have three encounter powers worth 11 "points" (1+3+7). That could let you use the same 3rd level power 3 times if you want. Mana points / Power points / whatever you want to call them. This way you don't have a memory problem, but instead have an energy limitation. Since HP partially represents fatigue, spending healing surges should work just fine. It would also prevent the lameness of having an additional clunky mechanic.
#19 Nived Oct 22, 2008 18:14:35	Have you ever watched a boxing match or a Mixed Martial Arts fight? Fighters get tired, and while yeah that devastating take down and ground and pound might be a glorious maneuver, but the fighter can't do it every time. After the first time the other fighter is watching for it.
#20 ssvegeta555 Oct 22, 2008 21:56:06	Have you ever watched a boxing match or a Mixed Martial Arts fight? Fighters get tired, and while yeah that devastating take down and ground and pound might be a glorious maneuver, but the fighter can't do it every time. After the first time the other fighter is watching for it. Who said it was against the same guy? ;)
#21 nowiwantmydmg Oct 22, 2008 22:12:01	I think instead of surges it should use their second wind without giving back any HP or the defense bonus; for dailies it uses the second wind and a second healing surge in addition. Still limited but a little more flexibility.
#22 ipsissimus Oct 22, 2008 23:00:21	Using HS's to recharge dailies favors classes with more hps, feats like toughness, durable, and higher con scores. I think it's fine the way it is, if you feel so compelled house rule a ritual spell that allow a target to regain their daily. Somehow.
#23 emwasick Oct 22, 2008 23:11:14	I think instead of surges it should use their second wind without giving back any HP or the defense bonus; for dailies it uses the second wind and a second healing surge in addition. Still limited but a little more flexibility. The surges-for-powers house rule has been suggested a lot of times, but this is novel and actually somewhat workable. Allowing additional uses of powers on any basis will make combat significantly easier, but this will at least constrain things a bit by forcing players to choose between having additional healing/defense and having additional offense. This doesn't fix the basic problem though, which is that more offense is better than more defense or healing. Killing things faster protects you from damage, after all. Using more daily or encounter powers inflicts more statuses on more enemies, similarly reducing damage. In general, it will be optimal to use your best Daily power in every non-trivial fight if you are allowed to. If I were to implement additional uses of Daily and Encounter powers, I would probably nerf them a bit first. Considering halving the damage of these powers in addition to using the excellent suggestion quoted above. This will stop combat from becoming really, really easy.
#24 kezzek Oct 23, 2008 0:21:46	I really like the idea and was considering something like that myself. The other advantage of burning surges or hp would be to give players the opportunity of doing things differently in combat. Rather than run through a routine of encounter powers and sometimes daily powers against tougher opponents they could choose to use them more often when desperate and avoid using encounter powers when unnecessary. Variety and choice is the best part of having numerous abilities. Why should you use your encounter powers every encounter and your daily powers right before an extended rest. Of course, this makes the characters more powerful so appropriate adjustments need to be made to encounters to preserve balance.
#25 fabius_maximus Oct 23, 2008 8:45:07	I wouldn't restrict the rule to martial powers.
#26 nowiwantmydmg Oct 23, 2008 12:49:57	The surges-for-powers house rule has been suggested a lot of times, but this is novel and actually somewhat workable. Allowing additional uses of powers on any basis will make combat significantly easier, but this will at least constrain things a bit by forcing players to choose between having additional healing/defense and having additional offense. This doesn't fix the basic problem though, which is that more offense is better than more defense or healing. Killing things faster protects you from damage, after all. Using more daily or encounter powers inflicts more statuses on more enemies, similarly reducing damage. In general, it will be optimal to use your best Daily power in every non-trivial fight if you are allowed to. If I were to implement additional uses of Daily and Encounter powers, I would probably nerf them a bit first. Considering halving the damage of these powers in addition to using the excellent suggestion quoted above. This will stop combat from becoming really, really easy. The idea was you could get an extra use once every encounter at a risk, it does seem too good for dailies though: maybe half-damage or only allow the miss effect and nothing if it misses?
#27 vaelan Oct 23, 2008 22:54:26	Resource trading encourages the five minute workday. The five minute workday is boring.
#28 fletch137 Oct 24, 2008 10:42:32	Resource trading encourages the five minute workday. The five minute workday is boring. How is “I used up my healing surges” different from “I used up my dailies”? Since I’ve seen my group break for lunch as soon as they’ve used up their dailies, I could argue that the promise of *more* uses of daily powers would actually extend the adventuring day. But, it's all conjecture at this point. We'll see how things fly tomorrow.
#29 fletch137 Oct 27, 2008 9:08:58	Looks like it's not quite as game-breaking as some feared. I have to martial-powered characters in my group: a ranger and a rogue. The rogue only used his extra daily once, siting that circumstances (his daily is all about moving enemies, I guess, and he didn't have many needs to) kept him from wanting to do it more. The ranger used the option quite a bit, though, and is starting to feel the pinch as he's worked himself down to a single healing surge. He didn't seem to outshine the rest of the group, instead providing some needed damage when the party needed it most. This was at 2nd level, so there's still some potential issues as characters get multiple dailies. We'll have to see as things go on.
#30 szatany_dup Oct 27, 2008 10:05:48	I confess, I've had a hard time accepting the idea that some martial powers are limited to once per day. While I see the game balance issue, my mind won't accept a fighter saying "whew, I'm going to need a nap before I try that again." I have an idea. Whenever a martial character gains daily power from leveling, she can choose an encounter power instead. I know it isn't something you are shooting for but it would make martial classes somewhat more similar to their 3e counterparts. For example a 1st level fighter could have 2 encounter powers and no dailies. His ability to go nova would be reduced but his staying power would improve.