Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 chanter_hound Nov 12, 2009 9:23:50	yes, i know there is superior weapons, and they kinda replaced exotic from older editions. However, I don't believe they fully did. Exotic weapons cannot be used normally without training. There is prof bonus, but you can't use them if your are not proficient. Most exotic weapons are surrogated though by previous weapons.  An example is Poisoners Dagger - Light Blade +3 prof bonus 1d4 damage While proficient with this weapon, when you make a melee weapon attack that hits its target you can make a secondary attack with the loaded poison as a free action. It takes a minor action to reload this daggers poison capsule. This weapon counts as a dagger for the rogues class abilities. If you are not proficient with this weapon, you cannot use the ability, but treat it as a normal dagger. To take this weapons prof feat, you must also be prof with daggers. This becomes really important however for certian superior weapons like whips, garrote and bola. An exotic whip for example is.. Dagger Whip - whip, flail, light blade. +3 Prof bonus 1d4 points of damage Reach IF you are not prof with this weapon, treat it as a dagger instead and it loses reach and is no longer considered a whip or flail.
#2 pluisjen Nov 12, 2009 10:17:50	Isn't that what the Weapon Mastery feats mean to do? Giving you special options with these odd weapons, above and beyond what you can normally do with them?
#3 chanter_hound Nov 12, 2009 10:48:55	weapon mastery assumes the weapon is a normal version of the weapon.  Just because you are really good at using a whip doesn't mean that it suddenly gots a dagger on the end of it or if you are really good with daggers, it doesn't get the poison injection system. This basically is beyond the normal range of what the weapon could ever be possible of doing by changing and modifing certian aspects of it. Which of course weapon master for the whip would end up also applying to the other types of whips. (Dagger Whip is actually one from 3.5 supplementals, I belive the same book the injection dagger might have been as well.)
#4 chanter_hound Nov 15, 2009 10:53:58	Some other types of exotic weapons would be nunchuku. Nunchuku without proficency can cause a back lash damage.. 1d6 points of damage may be delt back at you. This is because they are more than harder to hit with.. without the proper training when a nuchuku hits a solid object it bounces back. There is also clockwork weapons.. that are big and heavy but having training in them they have a special attack.. For example spears can actually fire off the spear head and become a clockwork quarterstaff. (This form of staff however you are prof with if you are prof with the spear.) There is also the three section staves and spears. (not any that can be thrown) that have some unique mundane traits.
#5 Crimson_Concerto Nov 16, 2009 3:26:56	It sounds to me as though reflavoring could take care of... all of this? I mean, some "exotic" weapons, as you describe them, are just too niche in concept to need their own unique mechanics. Also, I really don't understand why the current weapon rules and the idea of weapon mastery feats don't already cover what you desire. For more specific and directed feedback: Exotic weapons cannot be used normally without training. There is prof bonus, but you can't use them if your are not proficient. Sure you can. As long as a weapon doesn't require some complex understanding of technology in order to basically function, I can pick up and use anything I want. I can't use it well, but that's what the lack of proficiency bonus is for. I'm not seeing what the problem you have with this is. An example is Poisoners Dagger - Light Blade +3 prof bonus 1d4 damage While proficient with this weapon, when you make a melee weapon attack that hits its target you can make a secondary attack with the loaded poison as a free action. It takes a minor action to reload this daggers poison capsule. This weapon counts as a dagger for the rogues class abilities. If you are not proficient with this weapon, you cannot use the ability, but treat it as a normal dagger. To take this weapons prof feat, you must also be prof with daggers. So... This is basically exactly like how daggers and poison already work except that it's a minor action to reapply the poison instead of a standard action... I feel like changing the required action for that is already done by a simple feat or paragon path feature somewhere, and if it isn't, it could easily be, so there's no need to make an entirely new weapon out of this. This becomes really important however for certian superior weapons like whips, garrote and bola. An exotic whip for example is.. Dagger Whip - whip, flail, light blade. +3 Prof bonus 1d4 points of damage Reach IF you are not prof with this weapon, treat it as a dagger instead and it loses reach and is no longer considered a whip or flail. I don't see the point of this at all (no pun intended). It seems to be exactly like a whip, but it also has the Light Blade weapon group. This basically is beyond the normal range of what the weapon could ever be possible of doing by changing and modifing certian aspects of it. Like a weapon enchantment or a weapon mastery feat already does? Again, I'm not seeing why new mechanics are necessary here when existing mechanics are already more than adequate. Nunchuku without proficency can cause a back lash damage.. 1d6 points of damage may be delt back at you. This is because they are more than harder to hit with.. without the proper training when a nuchuku hits a solid object it bounces back. Bluntly (no pun intended again), this sounds like an aweful idea. It's exactly as easy to hurt yourself with a nunchuck that you don't know how to use as it is to hurt yourself with any other flail that you don't know how to use. There is also clockwork weapons.. that are big and heavy but having training in them they have a special attack.. For example spears can actually fire off the spear head and become a clockwork quarterstaff. (This form of staff however you are prof with if you are prof with the spear.) This, again, looks to be where reflavoring and taking advantage of existing mechanics should come is, because this weapon concept is very convoluted and niche. There is also the three section staves and spears. (not any that can be thrown) that have some unique mundane traits. Sounds to me like you can just add the flail weapon group to any of those and be done.
#6 chanter_hound Nov 16, 2009 19:40:52	It sounds to me as though reflavoring could take care of... all of this? I mean, some "exotic" weapons, as you describe them, are just too niche in concept to need their own unique mechanics. Also, I really don't understand why the current weapon rules and the idea of weapon mastery feats don't already cover what you desire. For more specific and directed feedback: Exotic weapons cannot be used normally without training. There is prof bonus, but you can't use them if your are not proficient. Sure you can. As long as a weapon doesn't require some complex understanding of technology in order to basically function, I can pick up and use anything I want. I can't use it well, but that's what the lack of proficiency bonus is for. I'm not seeing what the problem you have with this is. The lack of Prof bonus is, sure, not using it well. That doesn't mean however you can pick up a rod and use it like wizard or warlock could just less proficent. It would be an improvised weapon, an implement.. and in the martial weapon user terms.. an exotic weapon. An example is Poisoners Dagger - Light Blade +3 prof bonus 1d4 damage While proficient with this weapon, when you make a melee weapon attack that hits its target you can make a secondary attack with the loaded poison as a free action. It takes a minor action to reload this daggers poison capsule. This weapon counts as a dagger for the rogues class abilities. If you are not proficient with this weapon, you cannot use the ability, but treat it as a normal dagger. To take this weapons prof feat, you must also be prof with daggers. So... This is basically exactly like how daggers and poison already work except that it's a minor action to reapply the poison instead of a standard action... I feel like changing the required action for that is already done by a simple feat or paragon path feature somewhere, and if it isn't, it could easily be, so there's no need to make an entirely new weapon out of this. Its a minor action to reload, but a free action to administer the poison. Which means you can stab the first guy, even the second guy and on the third guy finally release the poison. Your daggers are already preaped and primed. Carry five of them with quick draw, you never have to take a minor action or a standard action to reload or reapply. And, sure, I'll give you the spider kissed weapon(if you are allowed to use magical items.), the poisoner weapon mastery feats (If you can get training in dungeonering or nature), and the venom soul PP (if your assassin) Though this is the intresting thing here. all of these are fairly limited. The spider kissed does poison damage, but without being able to use its daily.. you are just doing damage. Poisoner mastery, allows you to apply poison effects.. but only when you make an attack. But one attack and you have used it up. Even if you miss.. Same even with the venom soul. This is however, mundane. No magic is involved, (though some might say that poisons are magical.) you hit, as a free action you inject the poison. Clean and precice. This becomes really important however for certian superior weapons like whips, garrote and bola. An exotic whip for example is.. Dagger Whip - whip, flail, light blade. +3 Prof bonus 1d4 points of damage Reach IF you are not prof with this weapon, treat it as a dagger instead and it loses reach and is no longer considered a whip or flail. I don't see the point of this at all (no pun intended). It seems to be exactly like a whip, but it also has the Light Blade weapon group. That is precicly the point though. The damage may be need to be upped into a short sword though. Part of the problem i see here is that supieror is the top weapons. there isn't anything higher.. so how does one express better whips than the common bullwhip. And don't give me the "paint it a differnt color" jazz here, because that really isn't going to fly. Esspecially since as of right now, there is absolutly no martial class that can use the Whip and attack with dexterity. This basically is beyond the normal range of what the weapon could ever be possible of doing by changing and modifing certian aspects of it. Like a weapon enchantment or a weapon mastery feat already does? Again, I'm not seeing why new mechanics are necessary here when existing mechanics are already more than adequate. Enchantment makes the item an magical item. Its basically expressed that magical fairies come down and make your weapon super special now. (Or however else they become enchanted.) Then rust monsters run in and eat said weapon. Weapon mastery feats also, as i said before, assume the weapon in question is a normal weapon. If for example I made a weapon mastery feat that allowed you to now be able to shoot patiroit missles out of your bow and arrow, you would think "what the hell is this?" Basically as a number of people have said often with martial controllers.. "doing a bunch of pushups isn't going to allow me to shoot fireballs from my eyes and lighting bolts from my arse." Nunchuku without proficency can cause a back lash damage.. 1d6 points of damage may be delt back at you. This is because they are more than harder to hit with.. without the proper training when a nuchuku hits a solid object it bounces back. Bluntly (no pun intended again), this sounds like an aweful idea. It's exactly as easy to hurt yourself with a nunchuck that you don't know how to use as it is to hurt yourself with any other flail that you don't know how to use. Not really. Nunchuku tend to have less weight to them.. which results in more bounce.. but whatever. I'll let you have this one. There is also clockwork weapons.. that are big and heavy but having training in them they have a special attack.. For example spears can actually fire off the spear head and become a clockwork quarterstaff. (This form of staff however you are prof with if you are prof with the spear.) This, again, looks to be where reflavoring and taking advantage of existing mechanics should come is, because this weapon concept is very convoluted and niche. Hence why the weapon is exotic. If it was simple and well known it would be.. a simple weapon. If it was somewhat simple but not too much and still well known, it would be a military weapon. If it was hard to use properly but still well known it would be a superior weapon. There is also the three section staves and spears. (not any that can be thrown) that have some unique mundane traits. Sounds to me like you can just add the flail weapon group to any of those and be done. Which would require some sort of weapon prof feat. And since a great spear is a superior weapon..
#7 nightwalker450 Nov 17, 2009 15:07:03	Are you going to require Weapon Proficiency in a Superior Weapon to use them? If not, then they are just Superior Weapons.  If you are going to require it, then its requiring you waste a feat in order to spend a feat to use them.
#8 chanter_hound Nov 18, 2009 10:00:43	They are going to require a prof in whatever the base weapon is. So if its a whip, you need prof with the current whip. The dagger whip will probally become a d6 in damage. If its a dagger, you need prof with the dagger. Some though, might not have a base weapon.