Expanded Combat Options - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Expanded Combat Options

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
philosopherdirtbike
Nov 13, 2008 22:46:32 Here are some new combat ideas I was playing around with. The reason I am adding these, or want to add something like them, is that the only way to really manipulate a foe now in 4th Ed is with special class abilities, like Encounter Powers. I wanted to add something that would allow a creature with no real class levels or template to manipulate foes in a similar (albeit, weaker) manner.

Disarming
Standard Action
This allows a target to forcibly remove a weapon from a foes grasp. A weapon removed in this manner drops to the ground in the same square as it's wielder, unless the disarm is performed as a part of a special Power or Maneuvre that states otherwise.

Strength vs Reflex when attempting to disarm a foe of a 1 handed or ranged weapon.
Strength vs Fortitude when attempting to disarm a foe of a 2 handed weapon

Magical weapon bonuses and bonuses from feats such as Weapon Focus apply to both the attack and defense against these actions, respectively.

Potential Powers and Feats
*Fighter Encounter Ability that allows the fighter, when wielding a Flail Type weapon to deal 1 [W] damage as part of a disarm attack and, if the disarm is successful, to fling a foes weapon up to his Strength Modifier in squares away from the victim. Maybe add some higher level ones that deal more damage or add benefits.
*Basic Feat that allows an attacker to use Dexterity in place of Strength when making a Disarm attack. May lead into a Paragon Feat that allows an attacker to disarm with a ranged weapon.

Shove
Standard Action
This allows an attacker to forcibly move his foe a very short distance by slamming into him, temporarily grappling him, or manipulating his movements in some similar fashion. If successful, the foe is pushed one square away from the attacker.

Strength vs Fortitude if the attacker has Combat Advantage
Strength vs Reflex or Fortitude (Defenders choice) if the attacker does not have Combat Advantage.

Potential Powers and Feats
*Feat that allows an Attacker to use his Constitution rather than his Strength for a Push action.

Trip
Standard Action
This technique allows the attacker to push a foe to the ground. If successful, the attacker knocks the foe prone in the same square he started in.

Strength vs Fortitude if the attacker has Combat Advantage
Strength vs Reflex or Fortitude (Defenders choice) if the attacker does not have Combat Advantage.
#2
thegreatgalstaff
Nov 14, 2008 13:32:55 Wow this thread looks familiar. I wrote up a similar thread for disarm but it can apply to all of these "Expanded Combat Options"

before I begin I think I need to explain how to balance these "Moves"

In 3.5 they were "balanced" by a attacker provoking a Attack of Opportunity (AoO), to discourage people from doing every turn.

4th has gotten rid of that so instead they made things "Encounter" powers.

If you allow players to do this make them take a feat.

If you allow monsters to do this Make it a "Encounter utility" power that says when you hit with a melee attack/melee power the recipient of the attack drops his/her weapon in his or her square. only elites and solos should have this power.

Now here is the rub, what kind of action is it to pick up your weapon?

Free, did you really do anything if there is no hindrance what so ever
Minor, makes it too weak, most front liners don't use theirs anyway.
Move, who cares your not moving if its in melee with you.
Standard, too powerful, its basically saying that you get a free turn to screw over the person and if there is no limit you can kill any weapon based character without taking a hit.

---------------------------
Shove. This one is easy.

Shove is already in 4th ed but it is called something else. Look up "GRAB" page 290 PHB then look up move a grabbed target.
----------------------------

Now on to trip

See above about how 3.5 balanced it and how 4th does it.

if you allow a player to do this make them take a feat to get it.

if you allow a monster to do it make it a "Encounter Utility" just like disarm.

now getting up from prone is outlined and I don't see many problems unless you allow it to be abused.

----------------------------------

Summary,

"Disarm". WHY would you want to do it. it would hardly limit the targets ability to fight unless you Over Powered the ability. the way you have it it does no damage... and does nothing, really. there is no reason for a creature to do this nor is there a reason for a player to do it either.

"Shove". see Grab I use it sometimes to make creatures set off their own traps. who needs a rouge when you have meat shields:evillaugh

"Trip". there are a lot of creatures that have trip abilities, along with almost all of the PC classes. Why would you need to be able to do it without doing any damage when you can use a power that grants the same thing plus it is killing them at the same time.

I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs and talking your ears off, but if you think about it is there any reason (with exception of "Grab") to preform these combat maneuvers. If the answer is NO then why go to the trouble.
#3
philosopherdirtbike
Nov 16, 2008 10:57:52 Ahhh yes, I had forgotten about the Attack of Opportunity restriction. My primary reason for coming up with less generalized combat options is to keep it somewhat easy but to allow more options in combat than the standard 'I roll, I hit' that most of my 4th Ed games so far have been. It is more an issue with the players, but I did prefer the huge number of options in 3.5 for standard characters.

I had, unfortunately, forgotten that they were balanced by Attacks of Opportunity.

Altenrately, I suppose I could apply some defense penalty or something, but Feats is probably the way to go. Thanks for the response.
#4
bone_naga
Nov 16, 2008 18:29:09 I did a similar thing to what you are posting here, but to balance it I made the disarm and trip maneuvers into "general" encounter powers, which can be selected by anyone regardless of class. This way anyone can do it, even at 1st level, but it is a little more balanced (only 1/encounter and character is giving up a potentially more damaging encounter attack power).

As for Disarm, yes it is useful if your enemy's powers are weapon-based. However, I don't remember off the top of my head what type of action is needed to retrieve the weapon and if it provokes an OA. If it's too easy, you might want to houserule picking up a weapon provoking an OA or have the power drop the weapon in an adjacent square, so the enemy at least has to move to get it.
#5
eldiran
Nov 16, 2008 18:47:19 "Shove" already exists in the form of Bull Rush, and as mentioned earlier, Grab. Disarm, personally to me is something that would require a lot of finesse and skill... something that is beyond any but a melee-specific class, in my mind. Balance-wise, I'm unsure either way.

"Trip" as an action anyone can perform is very very powerful if the party has a rogue. Being knocked prone is very influential in any combat, and it is too much to hand out the ability to do it at will. Even if they had to take a feat to be able to trip, it would likely be too potent.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 philosopherdirtbike Nov 13, 2008 22:46:32	Here are some new combat ideas I was playing around with. The reason I am adding these, or want to add something like them, is that the only way to really manipulate a foe now in 4th Ed is with special class abilities, like Encounter Powers. I wanted to add something that would allow a creature with no real class levels or template to manipulate foes in a similar (albeit, weaker) manner. Disarming Standard Action This allows a target to forcibly remove a weapon from a foes grasp. A weapon removed in this manner drops to the ground in the same square as it's wielder, unless the disarm is performed as a part of a special Power or Maneuvre that states otherwise. Strength vs Reflex when attempting to disarm a foe of a 1 handed or ranged weapon. Strength vs Fortitude when attempting to disarm a foe of a 2 handed weapon Magical weapon bonuses and bonuses from feats such as Weapon Focus apply to both the attack and defense against these actions, respectively. Potential Powers and Feats Fighter Encounter Ability that allows the fighter, when wielding a Flail Type weapon to deal 1 [W] damage as part of a disarm attack and, if the disarm is successful, to fling a foes weapon up to his Strength Modifier in squares away from the victim. Maybe add some higher level ones that deal more damage or add benefits. Basic Feat that allows an attacker to use Dexterity in place of Strength when making a Disarm attack. May lead into a Paragon Feat that allows an attacker to disarm with a ranged weapon. Shove Standard Action This allows an attacker to forcibly move his foe a very short distance by slamming into him, temporarily grappling him, or manipulating his movements in some similar fashion. If successful, the foe is pushed one square away from the attacker. Strength vs Fortitude if the attacker has Combat Advantage Strength vs Reflex or Fortitude (Defenders choice) if the attacker does not have Combat Advantage. Potential Powers and Feats Feat that allows an Attacker to use his Constitution rather than his Strength for a Push action. Trip* Standard Action This technique allows the attacker to push a foe to the ground. If successful, the attacker knocks the foe prone in the same square he started in. Strength vs Fortitude if the attacker has Combat Advantage Strength vs Reflex or Fortitude (Defenders choice) if the attacker does not have Combat Advantage.
#2 thegreatgalstaff Nov 14, 2008 13:32:55	Wow this thread looks familiar. I wrote up a similar thread for disarm but it can apply to all of these "Expanded Combat Options" before I begin I think I need to explain how to balance these "Moves" In 3.5 they were "balanced" by a attacker provoking a Attack of Opportunity (AoO), to discourage people from doing every turn. 4th has gotten rid of that so instead they made things "Encounter" powers. If you allow players to do this make them take a feat. If you allow monsters to do this Make it a "Encounter utility" power that says when you hit with a melee attack/melee power the recipient of the attack drops his/her weapon in his or her square. only elites and solos should have this power. Now here is the rub, what kind of action is it to pick up your weapon? Free, did you really do anything if there is no hindrance what so ever Minor, makes it too weak, most front liners don't use theirs anyway. Move, who cares your not moving if its in melee with you. Standard, too powerful, its basically saying that you get a free turn to screw over the person and if there is no limit you can kill any weapon based character without taking a hit. --------------------------- Shove. This one is easy. Shove is already in 4th ed but it is called something else. Look up "GRAB" page 290 PHB then look up move a grabbed target. ---------------------------- Now on to trip See above about how 3.5 balanced it and how 4th does it. if you allow a player to do this make them take a feat to get it. if you allow a monster to do it make it a "Encounter Utility" just like disarm. now getting up from prone is outlined and I don't see many problems unless you allow it to be abused. ---------------------------------- Summary, "Disarm". WHY would you want to do it. it would hardly limit the targets ability to fight unless you Over Powered the ability. the way you have it it does no damage... and does nothing, really. there is no reason for a creature to do this nor is there a reason for a player to do it either. "Shove". see Grab I use it sometimes to make creatures set off their own traps. who needs a rouge when you have meat shields:evillaugh "Trip". there are a lot of creatures that have trip abilities, along with almost all of the PC classes. Why would you need to be able to do it without doing any damage when you can use a power that grants the same thing plus it is killing them at the same time. I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs and talking your ears off, but if you think about it is there any reason (with exception of "Grab") to preform these combat maneuvers. If the answer is NO then why go to the trouble.
#3 philosopherdirtbike Nov 16, 2008 10:57:52	Ahhh yes, I had forgotten about the Attack of Opportunity restriction. My primary reason for coming up with less generalized combat options is to keep it somewhat easy but to allow more options in combat than the standard 'I roll, I hit' that most of my 4th Ed games so far have been. It is more an issue with the players, but I did prefer the huge number of options in 3.5 for standard characters. I had, unfortunately, forgotten that they were balanced by Attacks of Opportunity. Altenrately, I suppose I could apply some defense penalty or something, but Feats is probably the way to go. Thanks for the response.
#4 bone_naga Nov 16, 2008 18:29:09	I did a similar thing to what you are posting here, but to balance it I made the disarm and trip maneuvers into "general" encounter powers, which can be selected by anyone regardless of class. This way anyone can do it, even at 1st level, but it is a little more balanced (only 1/encounter and character is giving up a potentially more damaging encounter attack power). As for Disarm, yes it is useful if your enemy's powers are weapon-based. However, I don't remember off the top of my head what type of action is needed to retrieve the weapon and if it provokes an OA. If it's too easy, you might want to houserule picking up a weapon provoking an OA or have the power drop the weapon in an adjacent square, so the enemy at least has to move to get it.
#5 eldiran Nov 16, 2008 18:47:19	"Shove" already exists in the form of Bull Rush, and as mentioned earlier, Grab. Disarm, personally to me is something that would require a lot of finesse and skill... something that is beyond any but a melee-specific class, in my mind. Balance-wise, I'm unsure either way. "Trip" as an action anyone can perform is very very powerful if the party has a rogue. Being knocked prone is very influential in any combat, and it is too much to hand out the ability to do it at will. Even if they had to take a feat to be able to trip, it would likely be too potent.