Extended Rest Benefits at Milestones - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Extended Rest Benefits at Milestones

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kenku4u
Jun 29, 2008 15:43:11 I'm trying to figure out a way to keep the adventurers moving forward in my game without so many breaks for extended rests. My players are actually pretty good about it and I know they would like to keep pressing forward if it wasn't for the fact that they've basically blown their wad of daily powers and healing surges fighting off a horde of goblins. I hate the idea of the characters completing what amounts to a few minutes of actual combat and then setting up camp or heading back to town because they're all dried up.
It's like everyone is a 1st edition Magic User now. I could try making most of the encounters easy for the party thus prompting them to save the use of their daily powers and healing surges for the big boss waiting at the end of the dungeon but then the challenges will seem scripted (and well, they would be). Besides, the game seems to embrace that fact that most parties will be taking an extended rest before they even reach a milestone (hence the action point reward).

I was thinking about trying something out at my next gaming session. At either each milestone or perhaps the third encounter in row without an extended rest, the party gains the benefit or partial benefit of an extended rest.

I know its been a staple of d&d game design since the original to rest to recover but it really isn't any more realistic than a group of heroes reaching a point and getting a surge of adrenaline pushing them forward, so what's the point of it all? As long as the encounters are challenging and fun I don't see this giving the player's any real advantage or crutch. The only real problem I see is the inability to use the "return to town" necessity as a aid to progress certain elements of the story.

I don't remember Conan stopping to rest before it got dark.

Just something I'm thinking about playtesting tomorrow. I'd appreciate any thoughts on the subject as its still just a vague idea bouncing around my head...
#2
MaximumPain
Jun 29, 2008 15:55:04 Its the same problem as I had running 3.5 wizards. They would spill their wad then hole up and rest. In some situations you have to let it happen at least when it makes sense. In other situations they may not have a good place to rest without being hassled by their foes.

Look at it this way if you bust into the evil wizards tower and kill half his pets and take off with his loot he gonna be ****** and hes gonna send his minions to look for you and harass you denying you that rest. Another thing is if the defending monsters realize they are under attack they can fortify their positions and send for reinforcements. A third option is to put a time limit on it somehow make something that the party has to do before the time runs out. Just a few suggestions I do like the idea of giving something out at the milestones to reward continuous action. I'm not sure how unbalanced replacing their daily powers would be other then reducing the value of the encounter powers maybe you could make it just one daily power. Any way good luck and let us know how it goes
#3
dmgurtook
Jun 29, 2008 16:34:56 To counteract this type of activity keep you're restrictions of it within the story. If the party is sleeping in a town, then heading out to the local dungeoning and going through a couple of encounters than just pick up and head back to the town, how bad does that make them look? For instance, in the keep on the shadowfell adventure, what would KAlarel do if the pcs just kept running back to town after one or two fights to rest up? He'd open the rift, thats what. And how bad do the PCs look if they can only last for an hour or two in a dungeon, any self respecting patron would pull their funding and find people who have a spine and arent scared of going through more than one or two encounters between rests.

It doesn't make ANY sense for players to be blowing their provebial wad after only one to two encounters anyway, thats just bad playing. My group of players usually runs from anywhere from 4 to 7 encounters (combat and non combat) a day before they have to take a rest, and this is mainly for logical reasons, they have been trampsing through the dungeon for eight hours and their characters are tired, sure they can take endurance checks every hour, but tis better to rest up and start fresh.

If you're players are always using their daily powers too early, then give them a reason to WANT to save them, maybe they know that a big bad boss is coming up, but they have to go through a couple encounters first to get to that, and make it so that if they retreat back to town, then hes just going to reposition and re-arm his minions, making the hit and run tactic a very long and very tedious one.

Or perhaps you can solve it more simply, remind you;re palyers that they recieve action points after every other encounter, my players are apprehensive about letting these pwerful points go to waste, basically they give you the potential to deal nearly the same damage as a daily power by expending the point and taking two attacks in the same round. Action points are their for a reason, so remind you're players how powerful they are.

And if the above suggestion doesn't work, try giving them and action point after every encounter (still to a maximum of 3), that way they are never sort on actions they can take in combat.

Getting used to the new rules will take time, and coming up with a solution to this problem should involve you're players, talk it out with them and work it out as a group.
#4
archtyrant_terevoth
Jun 29, 2008 18:05:03 Part of the game is supposed to be resource depletion, it's why you've got a finite number of healing surges. In fact, the designers didn't want people to be able to continue indefinitely.

Generally the problem is one of three things:
1. The players are abusing extended rests and try to rest after every battle. Thus they resort to the strategy of blowing all their resources then expect to rest and use a daily ability every encounter.
2. The PCs just have notoriously poor tactics and don't conserve their dailies. They need to learn good resource conservation.
3. The encounters are very deadly, and the PCs are forced to go all-out to survive.

Now, based on what you've said, the problem probably isn't #1, so it's #2 or #3.

Your PCs shouldn't be blowing all their dailies in the first combat, unless you throw a super difficult battle at them.

in 4E, you should generally stick to the XP budget, because that produces challenging encounters. If you're throwing brutal encounters at them that go way over their budget, then yes... you'll probably kill them.

As for teaching the PCs good resource management, you want to throw some weak encounters at them (things that don't even count towards the milestone, like maybe half XP budget stuff). Then throw in a tough encounter. One that will track them back to their resting place if they decide to pull back. It shouldn't be a killer encounter, but should be enough to let them know that it's in their best interests to try to not open on the first round with their dailies.
#5
kenku4u
Jun 29, 2008 19:32:07 Thanks for the thoughts, guys.

A few points...

There are only 3 players.
2 defenders - Fighter and Paladin. 1 Striker - Ranger.
Not exactly optimized for 4th edition but no reason not to have fun.

Our schedules leave us with only a few hours on one weekday evening to play.

I'm currently running "Keep on the Shadowfell" so I'm dealing with pregenerated encounters.

I've scaled back some of the encounters to match up with their party size and character level and I've made some custom filler encounters, but if we're playing a game that requires setting up a map grid for each encounter we don't want the encounter to be too easy. In fact my players prefer each encounter to be a real challenge.

The DMG states that a "typical" encounter should challenge characters without overwhelming them. The characters should win IF they haven't depleted their daily resources or had a streak of bad luck. Both circumstances can happen a lot it seams. Have you seen their podcast?

Also, would the characters actually know that they should expect several encounters with a much tougher encounter later on? Maybe, if they're after some big baddy, sure. But if so, when will that encounter occur? Is this encounter the tough one? Is the next one going to be the one they need to save their daily power for?

A good example of "out of the blue" nasty encounters is in Keep on the Shadowfell. If you've read it or played it you know which one I'm talking about. That encounter is one the characters are almost immediately guided to and it kicks their butts. Encounter level outside of the lair = 1. Encounter level of the encounter 5 feet from that encounter = 6. Huh? I think they are expecting the characters to rest first. Or maybe go wandering around the woods and grinding until they level up a bit.

They player's aren't wimping out or playing badly. The rules allow for and expect extended rests. What I'm considering is giving the players the benefit of an extended rest as a reward for pushing their characters into taking on greater challenges which would have the additional benefit of keeping the focus of the adventure on the adventure. I'm thinking of allowing for the benefit to kick in after 3 encounters without an extended rest as an "Adrenalin Burst". I'm not sure if it will recharge healing surges, hit points and daily powers or some select benefits only. Any thoughts?

A few questions for anyone paying attention... What number of players of what classes are in your group? How many encounters are they completing without an extended rest? That info would actually be quite helpful!
#6
archtyrant_terevoth
Jun 29, 2008 20:36:28
I'm currently running "Keep on the Shadowfell" so I'm dealing with pregenerated encounters.

WotC adventures tend to be especially brutal. While I haven't played KotS myself, I've heard others tell some stories about some of the nasty encounters in there (especially the final boss).
#7
kenku4u
Jun 29, 2008 21:19:20
WotC adventures tend to be especially brutal. While I haven't played KotS myself, I've heard others tell some stories about some of the nasty encounters in there (especially the final boss).

It is probably set up with encounters a bit tougher than I'd normally throw against my small group, but we've been having a blast and they've really stepped up tactically. My wife, who's pretty inexperienced at the d&d, has taken to 4e like no other edition and has really started to surprise the other players with her sound tactical thinking. She likes it when her Warforged fighter make things dead and has painted a sweet looking miniature to represent herself.

I'm going to mull over the whole extended rest benefit idea tomorrow. If I still think it will benefit our game sessions I'll try it out at tomorrow night's game.

Any more input would be welcome.
#8
bfiggins
Jun 30, 2008 12:18:17 Let them rest. So they're doing 5-10 minutes of adventuring every day? Fine. The monsters are doing their thing 18-20 hours a day. Let the heroes finish their adventure, only to find that the village has been overrun and the trade routes are choked with monsters, because they took two weeks to clear out a goblin pit.
#9
kouk
Jun 30, 2008 14:50:03 Keep on the Shadowfell is a very tough adventure. I'm not sure if it is to drive home the point that the adventurers are just starting out, or they are supposed to overcome epic threats immediately or what, but it is hard at a lot of points.

Try reducing the encounters even further. Not only are they short two players from what the adventure expects (and it's still tough even with 6 players, at least with the pregens), they don't have all the roles covered, which I think may make them play more like they have 3 players missing.

If the players don't want to make a more balanced group, then I suppose in the interest of keeping things moving you might have milestones give maybe half of their healing surges back, or you could just double the number of encounter and daily powers they can have (either allowing them to be used twice or picking additional).

You could always just let players control two characters each, or make a DMPC or something.
#10
kenku4u
Jul 01, 2008 9:09:22 An update from our game last night...

Things went a lot smoother, except for a small tactical hiccup in a graveyard that almost got the Paladin killed.

We discussed the potential of some sort of additional benefit after 3 encounters without an extended rest but the jury is still out regarding what exactly it would be if anything.

Last night there was no need to test out the rule as the flow of the story took them back to town in the middle of the adventure anyway, though the Ranger just wanted to kill the goblin and move on...

Looking at some of the future encounters in KOTS, I still think I may have to do something to balance out the challenge. My players may prefer balls-to-the-wall encounters over easier ones but they also prefer living characters over dead ones.

I'm going to sit down and look at retooling the number/type of enemies in some of the future encounters. If we do decide on a house ruling I'll give you all an update on how it actually plays out. Thanks again for the comments. They have been very helpful.
#11
half_dragon_infernal
Jul 01, 2008 10:23:15 I would personally give them 1 renewed daily at every milestone, and regaining 1/4 of your healing surges at each milestone.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kenku4u Jun 29, 2008 15:43:11	I'm trying to figure out a way to keep the adventurers moving forward in my game without so many breaks for extended rests. My players are actually pretty good about it and I know they would like to keep pressing forward if it wasn't for the fact that they've basically blown their wad of daily powers and healing surges fighting off a horde of goblins. I hate the idea of the characters completing what amounts to a few minutes of actual combat and then setting up camp or heading back to town because they're all dried up. It's like everyone is a 1st edition Magic User now. I could try making most of the encounters easy for the party thus prompting them to save the use of their daily powers and healing surges for the big boss waiting at the end of the dungeon but then the challenges will seem scripted (and well, they would be). Besides, the game seems to embrace that fact that most parties will be taking an extended rest before they even reach a milestone (hence the action point reward). I was thinking about trying something out at my next gaming session. At either each milestone or perhaps the third encounter in row without an extended rest, the party gains the benefit or partial benefit of an extended rest. I know its been a staple of d&d game design since the original to rest to recover but it really isn't any more realistic than a group of heroes reaching a point and getting a surge of adrenaline pushing them forward, so what's the point of it all? As long as the encounters are challenging and fun I don't see this giving the player's any real advantage or crutch. The only real problem I see is the inability to use the "return to town" necessity as a aid to progress certain elements of the story. I don't remember Conan stopping to rest before it got dark. Just something I'm thinking about playtesting tomorrow. I'd appreciate any thoughts on the subject as its still just a vague idea bouncing around my head...
#2 MaximumPain Jun 29, 2008 15:55:04	Its the same problem as I had running 3.5 wizards. They would spill their wad then hole up and rest. In some situations you have to let it happen at least when it makes sense. In other situations they may not have a good place to rest without being hassled by their foes. Look at it this way if you bust into the evil wizards tower and kill half his pets and take off with his loot he gonna be ****** and hes gonna send his minions to look for you and harass you denying you that rest. Another thing is if the defending monsters realize they are under attack they can fortify their positions and send for reinforcements. A third option is to put a time limit on it somehow make something that the party has to do before the time runs out. Just a few suggestions I do like the idea of giving something out at the milestones to reward continuous action. I'm not sure how unbalanced replacing their daily powers would be other then reducing the value of the encounter powers maybe you could make it just one daily power. Any way good luck and let us know how it goes
#3 dmgurtook Jun 29, 2008 16:34:56	To counteract this type of activity keep you're restrictions of it within the story. If the party is sleeping in a town, then heading out to the local dungeoning and going through a couple of encounters than just pick up and head back to the town, how bad does that make them look? For instance, in the keep on the shadowfell adventure, what would KAlarel do if the pcs just kept running back to town after one or two fights to rest up? He'd open the rift, thats what. And how bad do the PCs look if they can only last for an hour or two in a dungeon, any self respecting patron would pull their funding and find people who have a spine and arent scared of going through more than one or two encounters between rests. It doesn't make ANY sense for players to be blowing their provebial wad after only one to two encounters anyway, thats just bad playing. My group of players usually runs from anywhere from 4 to 7 encounters (combat and non combat) a day before they have to take a rest, and this is mainly for logical reasons, they have been trampsing through the dungeon for eight hours and their characters are tired, sure they can take endurance checks every hour, but tis better to rest up and start fresh. If you're players are always using their daily powers too early, then give them a reason to WANT to save them, maybe they know that a big bad boss is coming up, but they have to go through a couple encounters first to get to that, and make it so that if they retreat back to town, then hes just going to reposition and re-arm his minions, making the hit and run tactic a very long and very tedious one. Or perhaps you can solve it more simply, remind you;re palyers that they recieve action points after every other encounter, my players are apprehensive about letting these pwerful points go to waste, basically they give you the potential to deal nearly the same damage as a daily power by expending the point and taking two attacks in the same round. Action points are their for a reason, so remind you're players how powerful they are. And if the above suggestion doesn't work, try giving them and action point after every encounter (still to a maximum of 3), that way they are never sort on actions they can take in combat. Getting used to the new rules will take time, and coming up with a solution to this problem should involve you're players, talk it out with them and work it out as a group.
#4 archtyrant_terevoth Jun 29, 2008 18:05:03	Part of the game is supposed to be resource depletion, it's why you've got a finite number of healing surges. In fact, the designers didn't want people to be able to continue indefinitely. Generally the problem is one of three things: 1. The players are abusing extended rests and try to rest after every battle. Thus they resort to the strategy of blowing all their resources then expect to rest and use a daily ability every encounter. 2. The PCs just have notoriously poor tactics and don't conserve their dailies. They need to learn good resource conservation. 3. The encounters are very deadly, and the PCs are forced to go all-out to survive. Now, based on what you've said, the problem probably isn't #1, so it's #2 or #3. Your PCs shouldn't be blowing all their dailies in the first combat, unless you throw a super difficult battle at them. in 4E, you should generally stick to the XP budget, because that produces challenging encounters. If you're throwing brutal encounters at them that go way over their budget, then yes... you'll probably kill them. As for teaching the PCs good resource management, you want to throw some weak encounters at them (things that don't even count towards the milestone, like maybe half XP budget stuff). Then throw in a tough encounter. One that will track them back to their resting place if they decide to pull back. It shouldn't be a killer encounter, but should be enough to let them know that it's in their best interests to try to not open on the first round with their dailies.
#5 kenku4u Jun 29, 2008 19:32:07	Thanks for the thoughts, guys. A few points... There are only 3 players. 2 defenders - Fighter and Paladin. 1 Striker - Ranger. Not exactly optimized for 4th edition but no reason not to have fun. Our schedules leave us with only a few hours on one weekday evening to play. I'm currently running "Keep on the Shadowfell" so I'm dealing with pregenerated encounters. I've scaled back some of the encounters to match up with their party size and character level and I've made some custom filler encounters, but if we're playing a game that requires setting up a map grid for each encounter we don't want the encounter to be too easy. In fact my players prefer each encounter to be a real challenge. The DMG states that a "typical" encounter should challenge characters without overwhelming them. The characters should win IF they haven't depleted their daily resources or had a streak of bad luck. Both circumstances can happen a lot it seams. Have you seen their podcast? Also, would the characters actually know that they should expect several encounters with a much tougher encounter later on? Maybe, if they're after some big baddy, sure. But if so, when will that encounter occur? Is this encounter the tough one? Is the next one going to be the one they need to save their daily power for? A good example of "out of the blue" nasty encounters is in Keep on the Shadowfell. If you've read it or played it you know which one I'm talking about. That encounter is one the characters are almost immediately guided to and it kicks their butts. Encounter level outside of the lair = 1. Encounter level of the encounter 5 feet from that encounter = 6. Huh? I think they are expecting the characters to rest first. Or maybe go wandering around the woods and grinding until they level up a bit. They player's aren't wimping out or playing badly. The rules allow for and expect extended rests. What I'm considering is giving the players the benefit of an extended rest as a reward for pushing their characters into taking on greater challenges which would have the additional benefit of keeping the focus of the adventure on the adventure. I'm thinking of allowing for the benefit to kick in after 3 encounters without an extended rest as an "Adrenalin Burst". I'm not sure if it will recharge healing surges, hit points and daily powers or some select benefits only. Any thoughts? A few questions for anyone paying attention... What number of players of what classes are in your group? How many encounters are they completing without an extended rest? That info would actually be quite helpful!
#6 archtyrant_terevoth Jun 29, 2008 20:36:28	I'm currently running "Keep on the Shadowfell" so I'm dealing with pregenerated encounters. WotC adventures tend to be especially brutal. While I haven't played KotS myself, I've heard others tell some stories about some of the nasty encounters in there (especially the final boss).
#7 kenku4u Jun 29, 2008 21:19:20	WotC adventures tend to be especially brutal. While I haven't played KotS myself, I've heard others tell some stories about some of the nasty encounters in there (especially the final boss). It is probably set up with encounters a bit tougher than I'd normally throw against my small group, but we've been having a blast and they've really stepped up tactically. My wife, who's pretty inexperienced at the d&d, has taken to 4e like no other edition and has really started to surprise the other players with her sound tactical thinking. She likes it when her Warforged fighter make things dead and has painted a sweet looking miniature to represent herself. I'm going to mull over the whole extended rest benefit idea tomorrow. If I still think it will benefit our game sessions I'll try it out at tomorrow night's game. Any more input would be welcome.
#8 bfiggins Jun 30, 2008 12:18:17	Let them rest. So they're doing 5-10 minutes of adventuring every day? Fine. The monsters are doing their thing 18-20 hours a day. Let the heroes finish their adventure, only to find that the village has been overrun and the trade routes are choked with monsters, because they took two weeks to clear out a goblin pit.
#9 kouk Jun 30, 2008 14:50:03	Keep on the Shadowfell is a very tough adventure. I'm not sure if it is to drive home the point that the adventurers are just starting out, or they are supposed to overcome epic threats immediately or what, but it is hard at a lot of points. Try reducing the encounters even further. Not only are they short two players from what the adventure expects (and it's still tough even with 6 players, at least with the pregens), they don't have all the roles covered, which I think may make them play more like they have 3 players missing. If the players don't want to make a more balanced group, then I suppose in the interest of keeping things moving you might have milestones give maybe half of their healing surges back, or you could just double the number of encounter and daily powers they can have (either allowing them to be used twice or picking additional). You could always just let players control two characters each, or make a DMPC or something.
#10 kenku4u Jul 01, 2008 9:09:22	An update from our game last night... Things went a lot smoother, except for a small tactical hiccup in a graveyard that almost got the Paladin killed. We discussed the potential of some sort of additional benefit after 3 encounters without an extended rest but the jury is still out regarding what exactly it would be if anything. Last night there was no need to test out the rule as the flow of the story took them back to town in the middle of the adventure anyway, though the Ranger just wanted to kill the goblin and move on... Looking at some of the future encounters in KOTS, I still think I may have to do something to balance out the challenge. My players may prefer balls-to-the-wall encounters over easier ones but they also prefer living characters over dead ones. I'm going to sit down and look at retooling the number/type of enemies in some of the future encounters. If we do decide on a house ruling I'll give you all an update on how it actually plays out. Thanks again for the comments. They have been very helpful.
#11 half_dragon_infernal Jul 01, 2008 10:23:15	I would personally give them 1 renewed daily at every milestone, and regaining 1/4 of your healing surges at each milestone.