Extra HP- A Viable Racial Feature? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Extra HP- A Viable Racial Feature?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
skyhoof
Jul 08, 2009 16:07:32 Hey folks, quick question: I'm working on a homebrew race for bugbears, trying to give them a little more depth. I decided that, to remove all the controversy behind it, I'd scratch out oversized, but that leaves me with a bit of a racial feature void. I immediately thought to how tough these things are supposed to be, and I had the thought of giving them, say, 5 bonus HP at character creation, as well as an extra skill (for fluff reasons with these particular bugbears).

Is this a decent feature? Should I perhaps give them more bonus HP, or try to think of something else?
#2
humanmind
Jul 08, 2009 16:53:47 To represent "being tough" I would give them a DR similar to the goliath. More HP seems a bit hollow.
#3
skyhoof
Jul 08, 2009 17:03:41 I'm wanting to keep their racial power, though, so that's not really an option. I'm wanting to make something to compensate for losing their oversized property. Something that expresses their intellect (again, fluff-specific) and something that still makes them strong/tough. The extra skill is easy enough, but I need to show their toughness in a way that lets them keep a better part of their existing properties, few as they are.

EDIT: Looking around at the other races for inspiration. Something like the dragonborn's healing surge bonus could work as well, I suppose.
#4
silent_stone
Jul 08, 2009 17:14:01 Have you considered letting the bugbears have an extra healing surge or two per day?
#5
skyhoof
Jul 08, 2009 17:59:14 That could work. About how many, though? Would an extra 2 be good?
#6
silent_stone
Jul 08, 2009 18:02:56
That could work. About how many, though? Would an extra 2 be good?

It all really depends on exactly what all the race gets. If they get a bunch of other good stuff and just need a little something extra to put them on par with other races, 1 would be plenty. If this ability needs to be a major feature, then 2 would be better.
#7
Dark_Stryke
Jul 08, 2009 20:32:10 You could give them them the equivalent of the toughness feat. +5HP/tier. Allow them to take toughness on top of that, and it's like an extra 1HP/level. Solid, but probably not broken (though it'll make primal classes pretty beefy).
#8
Krusk
Jul 08, 2009 21:58:07 What about a minor action encounter power for some temp hp? Bugbear bloodlust/endurance or something.
#9
DragonsWrath
Jul 08, 2009 22:23:35 Two additional ideas:

The ability to use Second Wind twice per encounter? That's quite powerful, but it would certainly get across the "I'm very tough" vibe.

The power to use Second Wind as a free action when first bloodied, or as an immediate interrupt when knocked unconscious.
#10
Lawolf
Jul 08, 2009 22:57:38 What about the ability to use Strength in place of Constitution to hit points (but not healing surges).
#11
vebrandsson
Jul 08, 2009 23:52:43
What about the ability to use Strength in place of Constitution to hit points (but not healing surges).

Rather bad idea if you ask me (or crimson concerto), you need racial features to be useful to you regardless of class. If you are using a non strength based class this beceomes dead weight and wasted text on the write up. I personally like the bonus hit points or healing surges ideas the best. However there are other ways to do it, perhaps the ability to spend a healing surge when first bloodied, or something along that lines, simular to being able to use second wind twice but not quite as excessive.
#12
pluisjen
Jul 09, 2009 5:19:54 How about giving them +2 Con? :P
That makes them tougher then normal creatures already.

If you really want toughness, I don't think just tacking on more HP or surges is the way to go, it sounds like a Racial Power.

Or, go the Dragonborn way and let them add Con mod to their surge value or something.

Or maybe even give them Resist All 1/tier? That doesn't sound too powerful, but it makes them tougher.
#13
skyhoof
Jul 09, 2009 8:11:55 Thanks a bunch for the output, folks! It's helping, I assure you.

You could give them them the equivalent of the toughness feat. +5HP/tier. Allow them to take toughness on top of that, and it's like an extra 1HP/level. Solid, but probably not broken (though it'll make primal classes pretty beefy).

It's a thought, but I'd probably want to pass it by someone like Crimson Concerto. I'll set that aside for now.

What about a minor action encounter power for some temp hp? Bugbear bloodlust/endurance or something.

Once again, I'm keeping their racial power and I'm not fond of the Drow's double power thing.

Two additional ideas:

The ability to use Second Wind twice per encounter? That's quite powerful, but it would certainly get across the "I'm very tough" vibe.

The power to use Second Wind as a free action when first bloodied, or as an immediate interrupt when knocked unconscious.

I... I like this. It can be used as something other than an encounter power, but it's still new and interesting. I'd want to make sure it's not too powerful, but I think I might go with this.

How about giving them +2 Con? :P
That makes them tougher then normal creatures already.

Would be good if their stat bonuses weren't already mapped out. +2 Str, +2 Int. Trust me, it makes sense in context.

Or maybe even give them Resist All 1/tier? That doesn't sound too powerful, but it makes them tougher.

Hm... Not my favorite, but it works.

Thanks again for all the thought, I'll be sure to think on these and keep this board open for further ideas.
#14
Dark_Stryke
Jul 09, 2009 14:51:24 I kind of like the idea of getting second wind as an immediate reaction when first bloodied. I probably wouldn't give it twice per encounter, though, and definitely not the first time you fall unconcious. Immediate healing when someone goes down is generally only available from paragon tier on, I've noticed.

I'd write it up like this:

Battle Surge: You may use your second wind as an immediate reaction the first time you become bloodied in an encounter.
#15
DragonsWrath
Jul 09, 2009 22:56:59 I just had another random thought, though this may be more appropriate for something like Gnolls, which enjoy the feral, visceral, on-the-edge feeling:

Adjusting your bloodied value.

"You are bloodied at 3/4 your HP, instead of 1/2"

Simple, elegant, yet it changes so much. Again, you would have to check the power level, but I don't think it would be busted. At least not until the CharOps got their hands on it, but what else is new.

Pros: Your "I'm bloodied, rar!" powers work more often, though several of those just let you heal more, which won't necessarily be helpful.
Cons: Enemies with advantages against bloodied foes become much more dangerous. I can see someone reaching 3/4 HP in a single round of combat, easily. Especially at first, when minions and traps are going off.
#16
vebrandsson
Jul 09, 2009 23:08:20
I just had another random thought, though this may be more appropriate for something like Gnolls, which enjoy the feral, visceral, on-the-edge feeling:

Adjusting your bloodied value.

"You are bloodied at 3/4 your HP, instead of 1/2"

Simple, elegant, yet it changes so much. Again, you would have to check the power level, but I don't think it would be busted. At least not until the CharOps got their hands on it, but what else is new.

Pros: Your "I'm bloodied, rar!" powers work more often, though several of those just let you heal more, which won't necessarily be helpful.
Cons: Enemies with advantages against bloodied foes become much more dangerous. I can see someone reaching 3/4 HP in a single round of combat, easily. Especially at first, when minions and traps are going off.

I don't like this idea, there are a number of particularly martial effects (most stances) that either end when you become bloodied or are only activatable when you are not bloodied, or both, and this really hurts those powers. Also on the flipside, powers and effects that only kick in while you're bloodied become much stronger. But more to the first point, you are in a round-about way giving the race a penalty for certain classes, and 4e races should not have penalties.
#17
mellored
Jul 10, 2009 8:09:05
"You are bloodied at 3/4 your HP, instead of 1/2"

Simple, elegant, yet it changes so much.

Interesting idea, but i agree that it changes too much. Alot of things are off a bloodied/unbloodied status and this skews things to much. It also doesn't fit bugbears very well.

Extra HP is kind of bland, but it does work. Though if you're keeping the encounter power and giving extra skill training, then 5/tier is a bit much. I'd probably go closer to 2 per tier, or 1 extra surge.
#18
zarquon_higardi
Jul 10, 2009 16:34:50 Take a look at the Half-Orc, they gain temporary hit points when they first become bloodied in an encounter. That's very similar to gaining extra hit points, in a certain sense.
#19
AbdulAlhazred
Jul 12, 2009 20:48:43 I really think a flat 5 extra hit points, while bland in a sense is not a bad way to go. But I also like the immediate reaction surge when bloodied thing. Its more elegant, but it actually is a pretty weak benefit overall. Slight action economy thing, but not huge IMHO. Problem is it can be bad for barbs.

How about an extra bonus to Endurance? Sort of makes them "tough as nails" but has little effect on combat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 skyhoof Jul 08, 2009 16:07:32	Hey folks, quick question: I'm working on a homebrew race for bugbears, trying to give them a little more depth. I decided that, to remove all the controversy behind it, I'd scratch out oversized, but that leaves me with a bit of a racial feature void. I immediately thought to how tough these things are supposed to be, and I had the thought of giving them, say, 5 bonus HP at character creation, as well as an extra skill (for fluff reasons with these particular bugbears). Is this a decent feature? Should I perhaps give them more bonus HP, or try to think of something else?
#2 humanmind Jul 08, 2009 16:53:47	To represent "being tough" I would give them a DR similar to the goliath. More HP seems a bit hollow.
#3 skyhoof Jul 08, 2009 17:03:41	I'm wanting to keep their racial power, though, so that's not really an option. I'm wanting to make something to compensate for losing their oversized property. Something that expresses their intellect (again, fluff-specific) and something that still makes them strong/tough. The extra skill is easy enough, but I need to show their toughness in a way that lets them keep a better part of their existing properties, few as they are. EDIT: Looking around at the other races for inspiration. Something like the dragonborn's healing surge bonus could work as well, I suppose.
#4 silent_stone Jul 08, 2009 17:14:01	Have you considered letting the bugbears have an extra healing surge or two per day?
#5 skyhoof Jul 08, 2009 17:59:14	That could work. About how many, though? Would an extra 2 be good?
#6 silent_stone Jul 08, 2009 18:02:56	That could work. About how many, though? Would an extra 2 be good? It all really depends on exactly what all the race gets. If they get a bunch of other good stuff and just need a little something extra to put them on par with other races, 1 would be plenty. If this ability needs to be a major feature, then 2 would be better.
#7 Dark_Stryke Jul 08, 2009 20:32:10	You could give them them the equivalent of the toughness feat. +5HP/tier. Allow them to take toughness on top of that, and it's like an extra 1HP/level. Solid, but probably not broken (though it'll make primal classes pretty beefy).
#8 Krusk Jul 08, 2009 21:58:07	What about a minor action encounter power for some temp hp? Bugbear bloodlust/endurance or something.
#9 DragonsWrath Jul 08, 2009 22:23:35	Two additional ideas: The ability to use Second Wind twice per encounter? That's quite powerful, but it would certainly get across the "I'm very tough" vibe. The power to use Second Wind as a free action when first bloodied, or as an immediate interrupt when knocked unconscious.
#10 Lawolf Jul 08, 2009 22:57:38	What about the ability to use Strength in place of Constitution to hit points (but not healing surges).
#11 vebrandsson Jul 08, 2009 23:52:43	What about the ability to use Strength in place of Constitution to hit points (but not healing surges). Rather bad idea if you ask me (or crimson concerto), you need racial features to be useful to you regardless of class. If you are using a non strength based class this beceomes dead weight and wasted text on the write up. I personally like the bonus hit points or healing surges ideas the best. However there are other ways to do it, perhaps the ability to spend a healing surge when first bloodied, or something along that lines, simular to being able to use second wind twice but not quite as excessive.
#12 pluisjen Jul 09, 2009 5:19:54	How about giving them +2 Con? :P That makes them tougher then normal creatures already. If you really want toughness, I don't think just tacking on more HP or surges is the way to go, it sounds like a Racial Power. Or, go the Dragonborn way and let them add Con mod to their surge value or something. Or maybe even give them Resist All 1/tier? That doesn't sound too powerful, but it makes them tougher.
#13 skyhoof Jul 09, 2009 8:11:55	Thanks a bunch for the output, folks! It's helping, I assure you. You could give them them the equivalent of the toughness feat. +5HP/tier. Allow them to take toughness on top of that, and it's like an extra 1HP/level. Solid, but probably not broken (though it'll make primal classes pretty beefy). It's a thought, but I'd probably want to pass it by someone like Crimson Concerto. I'll set that aside for now. What about a minor action encounter power for some temp hp? Bugbear bloodlust/endurance or something. Once again, I'm keeping their racial power and I'm not fond of the Drow's double power thing. Two additional ideas: The ability to use Second Wind twice per encounter? That's quite powerful, but it would certainly get across the "I'm very tough" vibe. The power to use Second Wind as a free action when first bloodied, or as an immediate interrupt when knocked unconscious. I... I like this. It can be used as something other than an encounter power, but it's still new and interesting. I'd want to make sure it's not too powerful, but I think I might go with this. How about giving them +2 Con? :P That makes them tougher then normal creatures already. Would be good if their stat bonuses weren't already mapped out. +2 Str, +2 Int. Trust me, it makes sense in context. Or maybe even give them Resist All 1/tier? That doesn't sound too powerful, but it makes them tougher. Hm... Not my favorite, but it works. Thanks again for all the thought, I'll be sure to think on these and keep this board open for further ideas.
#14 Dark_Stryke Jul 09, 2009 14:51:24	I kind of like the idea of getting second wind as an immediate reaction when first bloodied. I probably wouldn't give it twice per encounter, though, and definitely not the first time you fall unconcious. Immediate healing when someone goes down is generally only available from paragon tier on, I've noticed. I'd write it up like this: Battle Surge: You may use your second wind as an immediate reaction the first time you become bloodied in an encounter.
#15 DragonsWrath Jul 09, 2009 22:56:59	I just had another random thought, though this may be more appropriate for something like Gnolls, which enjoy the feral, visceral, on-the-edge feeling: Adjusting your bloodied value. "You are bloodied at 3/4 your HP, instead of 1/2" Simple, elegant, yet it changes so much. Again, you would have to check the power level, but I don't think it would be busted. At least not until the CharOps got their hands on it, but what else is new. Pros: Your "I'm bloodied, rar!" powers work more often, though several of those just let you heal more, which won't necessarily be helpful. Cons: Enemies with advantages against bloodied foes become much more dangerous. I can see someone reaching 3/4 HP in a single round of combat, easily. Especially at first, when minions and traps are going off.
#16 vebrandsson Jul 09, 2009 23:08:20	I just had another random thought, though this may be more appropriate for something like Gnolls, which enjoy the feral, visceral, on-the-edge feeling: Adjusting your bloodied value. "You are bloodied at 3/4 your HP, instead of 1/2" Simple, elegant, yet it changes so much. Again, you would have to check the power level, but I don't think it would be busted. At least not until the CharOps got their hands on it, but what else is new. Pros: Your "I'm bloodied, rar!" powers work more often, though several of those just let you heal more, which won't necessarily be helpful. Cons: Enemies with advantages against bloodied foes become much more dangerous. I can see someone reaching 3/4 HP in a single round of combat, easily. Especially at first, when minions and traps are going off. I don't like this idea, there are a number of particularly martial effects (most stances) that either end when you become bloodied or are only activatable when you are not bloodied, or both, and this really hurts those powers. Also on the flipside, powers and effects that only kick in while you're bloodied become much stronger. But more to the first point, you are in a round-about way giving the race a penalty for certain classes, and 4e races should not have penalties.
#17 mellored Jul 10, 2009 8:09:05	"You are bloodied at 3/4 your HP, instead of 1/2" Simple, elegant, yet it changes so much. Interesting idea, but i agree that it changes too much. Alot of things are off a bloodied/unbloodied status and this skews things to much. It also doesn't fit bugbears very well. Extra HP is kind of bland, but it does work. Though if you're keeping the encounter power and giving extra skill training, then 5/tier is a bit much. I'd probably go closer to 2 per tier, or 1 extra surge.
#18 zarquon_higardi Jul 10, 2009 16:34:50	Take a look at the Half-Orc, they gain temporary hit points when they first become bloodied in an encounter. That's very similar to gaining extra hit points, in a certain sense.
#19 AbdulAlhazred Jul 12, 2009 20:48:43	I really think a flat 5 extra hit points, while bland in a sense is not a bad way to go. But I also like the immediate reaction surge when bloodied thing. Its more elegant, but it actually is a pretty weak benefit overall. Slight action economy thing, but not huge IMHO. Problem is it can be bad for barbs. How about an extra bonus to Endurance? Sort of makes them "tough as nails" but has little effect on combat.