Fair compromise to give archer ranger Clever Shot? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fair compromise to give archer ranger Clever Shot?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
face_stab
May 07, 2011 20:06:35 In our upcoming game, we are lacking control and solid striker damage. I was going to talk to my DM about allowing a houserule to give my ranger the hunter's Clever Shot, since I see no way of getting it in heroic. I don't want to be overpowered, I just want to be able to give some soft control when needed.

Here is what I came up with: Human - give up Bonus At-Will and Bonus Feat to gain Clever Shot. Thus level 1 would look like:

Human - Ranger (Archery Style)
Powers:
Clever Shot
Twin Strike
Encounter
Daily

Feats:
Level 1: Bow Expertise

Does this seem like a fair compromise? I don't want to dominate the battlefield, which is why I think a slide 2/slow/prone is fair to give up for the added Twin Strike damage I'd normally be doing. If this is too overpowered (or maybe underpowered, since I think I should be able to choose it as a Human anyway), what would you suggest I do to make it fair to the DM and the group?
#2
Neutronium_Dragon
May 07, 2011 22:20:50 The primary problem that I see with this is that the Hunter is a controller class - even though it's considered to be a ranger subtype, it's built around a different set of expectations than the standard ranger.

I'd be more inclined to make Clever Shot a level 1 encounter attack power for the standard ranger.
#3
slobo777a
May 08, 2011 15:17:09
The primary problem that I see with this is that the Hunter is a controller class - even though it's considered to be a ranger subtype, it's built around a different set of expectations than the standard ranger. I'd be more inclined to make Clever Shot a level 1 encounter attack power for the standard ranger.

This idea could be considered equivalent in power swap of Human bonus At-Will for Half-Elf Dilletante . . . which seems pretty reasonable to me, and probably easier to judge as balanced.

Of course, if you go that far, why not play a Half-Elf in any case? Depends partly why you are playing a Human. Quite a few DMs (myself included) might allow you to be considered Human for all RP purposes, but have a Half-Elf build PC for mechanics purposes.

#4
thespaceinvader
May 08, 2011 16:03:37 Grab Hobbling Strike and World Serpent's Grasp. No houseruling needed, slow/prone with Twin Strike.
#5
rampant
May 08, 2011 16:08:40 If the party is normal sized it can probably function with a preponderance of leaders and/or defenders, fights will be longer, but they should be manageable.

Unless the problem is the party is undersized in which case look into a companion character or letting a player play a pair of twins.
#6
magikot9
May 12, 2011 14:21:53 Why would you need to give up anything to gain Clever Shot? It is listed as a level 1 ranger at-will attack power, and since you're a ranger and the human bonus at will states, "You know one extra 1st-level at-will attack power from your class" I see no reason you can't have your starting character look like this.

Human ranger - Archery Style
Twin Strike
Clever Shot
At-Will
Encounter
Daily

Bow Expertise
Human bonus feat

If it were listed as a Hunter at will and not Ranger at will then yeah, you'd have to houserule a way to get it. But you're a ranger and it's listed as ranger. There's no conflict.

Just like if you're playing a Human Hunter who gains a bonus at will instead of heroic effort you can gain an o-ranger at will such as twin strike.
#7
Igfig
May 13, 2011 21:42:36 It's a ranger at-will attack power, yes, but not a level 1 ranger at-will attack power. I'm afraid that's a no-go, Magikot.

The real problem with Clever Shot is that it's just too good on anyone but the class it was designed for. Compare it to Phantom Bolt, another level 1 at-will from a different controller class. Clever Shot deals more damage, has better range, slides further, and offers a choice of two other effects to boot.

If the ranger were a controller, this modification of the power would be balanced:

Ranger Attack 1Almost-As-Clever Shot
#8
magikot9
May 13, 2011 22:11:54
It's a ranger at-will attack power, yes, but not a level 1 ranger at-will attack power. I'm afraid that's a no-go, Magikot.

An at-will attack power you take at level 1 isn't a level 1 at-will attack power? O.o? Color me confused.
#9
Igfig
May 13, 2011 22:22:58 Yeah, the teminology can get confusing at times. Think of it like this: You know how you get the "Basic Attack" power as an at-will attack at level 1? How weird would it be if "Basic Attack" had a level?
#10
nightwalker450
May 18, 2011 12:59:53 Hunter's aren't so bad on the damage, if you were to just play a hunter. There's many inexpensive items that can boost your ranged basic attack. Not to mention the hunter has the greatest accuracy.

I played a one shot level 14 session, and my hunter was sporting a +24 to +26 to attack, with an avg of more than 30 damage per hit. Yeah, they lack nova strikes, but their round over round damage is pretty nice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 face_stab May 07, 2011 20:06:35	In our upcoming game, we are lacking control and solid striker damage. I was going to talk to my DM about allowing a houserule to give my ranger the hunter's Clever Shot, since I see no way of getting it in heroic. I don't want to be overpowered, I just want to be able to give some soft control when needed. Here is what I came up with: Human - give up Bonus At-Will and Bonus Feat to gain Clever Shot. Thus level 1 would look like: Human - Ranger (Archery Style) Powers: Clever Shot Twin Strike Encounter Daily Feats: Level 1: Bow Expertise Does this seem like a fair compromise? I don't want to dominate the battlefield, which is why I think a slide 2/slow/prone is fair to give up for the added Twin Strike damage I'd normally be doing. If this is too overpowered (or maybe underpowered, since I think I should be able to choose it as a Human anyway), what would you suggest I do to make it fair to the DM and the group?
#2 Neutronium_Dragon May 07, 2011 22:20:50	The primary problem that I see with this is that the Hunter is a controller class - even though it's considered to be a ranger subtype, it's built around a different set of expectations than the standard ranger. I'd be more inclined to make Clever Shot a level 1 encounter attack power for the standard ranger.
#3 slobo777a May 08, 2011 15:17:09	The primary problem that I see with this is that the Hunter is a controller class - even though it's considered to be a ranger subtype, it's built around a different set of expectations than the standard ranger. I'd be more inclined to make Clever Shot a level 1 encounter attack power for the standard ranger. This idea could be considered equivalent in power swap of Human bonus At-Will for Half-Elf Dilletante . . . which seems pretty reasonable to me, and probably easier to judge as balanced. Of course, if you go that far, why not play a Half-Elf in any case? Depends partly why you are playing a Human. Quite a few DMs (myself included) might allow you to be considered Human for all RP purposes, but have a Half-Elf build PC for mechanics purposes.
#4 thespaceinvader May 08, 2011 16:03:37	Grab Hobbling Strike and World Serpent's Grasp. No houseruling needed, slow/prone with Twin Strike.
#5 rampant May 08, 2011 16:08:40	If the party is normal sized it can probably function with a preponderance of leaders and/or defenders, fights will be longer, but they should be manageable. Unless the problem is the party is undersized in which case look into a companion character or letting a player play a pair of twins.
#6 magikot9 May 12, 2011 14:21:53	Why would you need to give up anything to gain Clever Shot? It is listed as a level 1 ranger at-will attack power, and since you're a ranger and the human bonus at will states, "You know one extra 1st-level at-will attack power from your class" I see no reason you can't have your starting character look like this. Human ranger - Archery Style Twin Strike Clever Shot At-Will Encounter Daily Bow Expertise Human bonus feat If it were listed as a Hunter at will and not Ranger at will then yeah, you'd have to houserule a way to get it. But you're a ranger and it's listed as ranger. There's no conflict. Just like if you're playing a Human Hunter who gains a bonus at will instead of heroic effort you can gain an o-ranger at will such as twin strike.
#7 Igfig May 13, 2011 21:42:36	It's a ranger at-will attack power, yes, but not a level 1 ranger at-will attack power. I'm afraid that's a no-go, Magikot. The real problem with Clever Shot is that it's just too good on anyone but the class it was designed for. Compare it to Phantom Bolt, another level 1 at-will from a different controller class. Clever Shot deals more damage, has better range, slides further, and offers a choice of two other effects to boot. If the ranger were a controller, this modification of the power would be balanced: Ranger Attack 1Almost-As-Clever Shot
#8 magikot9 May 13, 2011 22:11:54	It's a ranger at-will attack power, yes, but not a level 1 ranger at-will attack power. I'm afraid that's a no-go, Magikot. An at-will attack power you take at level 1 isn't a level 1 at-will attack power? O.o? Color me confused.
#9 Igfig May 13, 2011 22:22:58	Yeah, the teminology can get confusing at times. Think of it like this: You know how you get the "Basic Attack" power as an at-will attack at level 1? How weird would it be if "Basic Attack" had a level?
#10 nightwalker450 May 18, 2011 12:59:53	Hunter's aren't so bad on the damage, if you were to just play a hunter. There's many inexpensive items that can boost your ranged basic attack. Not to mention the hunter has the greatest accuracy. I played a one shot level 14 session, and my hunter was sporting a +24 to +26 to attack, with an avg of more than 30 damage per hit. Yeah, they lack nova strikes, but their round over round damage is pretty nice.