But, since this is 4.0 we have a problem... Now, my first question... since I can't understand for what reason the devs haven't made a tower shield, I ask you my fellow DMs and players to write your opinion. BUT, before you start with the "cmon, tower shields would be too OP!" type of comments please read what I have to say...
Let's say that that no class is proficient with tower shields and that you need to buy a feat for that type of shields. And let's say that you must fulfill the STR 18 (or maybe even 20) requirement if you want to take that feat.
Now, after many adventures played as a defender we managed to raise strenght to 18/20 and we've bought the tower shield feat! Great, but now comes the tricky part:
Tower shield gives you +3 bonus to AC and reflex when used inactively, and when used actively you gain melee cover/ranged full cover.
What does inactive using mean? It means that you are holding your tower shield in your off hand but you do not concentrate fully on defense, but again it's better than using a heavy shield (which gives +2 to AC and reflex).
What does active using mean? You concentrate fully on defense, you've bent your body slightly and put your shield right in front of you. You gain cover for melee attacks and full cover for ranged attacks, but you're slowed and you have -2 on your attack rolls. All attacks which can negate cover work normally against towers shields. Basically you're in a defensive stance maintaining it as a free action, but if you wish to switch to inactive tower shield using you have to spend a minor action and vice versa.
So, let's sum it up:
INACTIVE USING:
You have a +3 bonus to AC and reflex.
ACTIVE USING:
you have a cover from melee attacks (classic cover core rules PHB p280)
you have a full cover from ranged attacks (classic full cover core rules PHB p280)
you are slowed (classic slowed core rules)
YOU ARE NOT IMMUNE TO POWERS WHICH NEGATE COVER
Now let's hear your opinion about this, is it practical, is the relation between bonuses and penalties balanced and finally, would anyone of you defenders try using a tower shield?
But, I can imagine people wanting to have a Tower shield so lets see what we can do
The +3 bonus to AC and Ref is probably alright though I would make the pre-req Str 17 and prof. with Heavy Shield.
In addition to the normal +3 bonusses, it also gives a +1 feat bonus to AC and Reflex when you use Total Defense (so with a Tower Shield in total defense you get +2 fort +3 ref +2 will +3 ac)
However, as a downside because the shield is so heavy, you cannot use a normal one-handed weapon next to the shield, only an offhand one.
Anyway; this is just my take on the shield, let me know what you think
This is probably too powerful for a regular item. If you can get a single chokepoint and get behind cover, using Total Defense, you'd be impossible to hurt while your party whittles the enemy away.
But, I can imagine people wanting to have a Tower shield so lets see what we can do
The +3 bonus to AC and Ref is probably alright though I would make the pre-req Str 17 and prof. with Heavy Shield.
In addition to the normal +3 bonusses, it also gives a +1 feat bonus to AC and Reflex when you use Total Defense (so with a Tower Shield in total defense you get +2 fort +3 ref +2 will +3 ac)
However, as a downside because the shield is so heavy, you cannot use a normal one-handed weapon next to the shield, only an offhand one.
Anyway; this is just my take on the shield, let me know what you think
You're right about the total defense, with it you'd almost be impossible to hurt if you could position yourself into a choke point, but again, to get into that position in a first place you have to pay dearly for the ability to even eqiup the tower shield. That's why I've put 20 str req on the feat for the tower shield in a first place and that's why you will be slowed if you use it actively. So if someone wants to get that feat he/she has to pay a lot for it.
On the other hand, your suggestion is statistically maybe even better than mine, because it won't be so OP in some situations. But, I think that tower shield should be all about cover...
I think that both of our suggestions could be used in game, it's up to DMs to decide which one would they use as a house rule. Thanx for putting some thoughts on this matter Pluisjen
No problem. However, the thing with a str 20 preq is that it isn't much of a penalty. Pretty much any fighter can get that by 8th level, or 14th level if they're low strength Fighters (ie a Dwarf starting with a 16) so it's hardly an investment.
Slowed is not much of a problem if you don't move anyway. The -2 to attack rolls doesn't matter either, since you're in total defense.
A penalty is only a penalty if it's affecting you. Adding Int 17 as a prereq, that's a serious drawback. Fighters don't usually have that. But Str 20 isn't much of a trouble to get, nor is Slowed a penalty if you don't need to move. Slowed is a penalty if you need to engage an archer with your shield up. Not when you're standing in a doorway.
This isn't meant to burn down your idea or anything, just trying to give you some insight in how you should think about penalties and bonusses.
Yes, you're pretty much right about the penalties... Maybe -4 on attacks while actively using tower shield, that would be more balanced.
Concerning slowed, well yes, you can just stand behind a shield and hold your ground, but that makes you a good target for the rogue who could come from behind, and if he does so you don't have cover against him anymore (nor to anyone who is behind you).
And don't worry, I don't look at your posts like they are some sort of burning, I really appreciate that you have the time and energy to share your thoughts about this topic with me
Maybe -4 on attacks while actively using tower shield, that would be more balanced.
-4 penalty to attacks is the same thing as -2 when you are in Full Defense. Its no drawback at all since you cannot attack while in full defense.
this as an example of a penalty that might actually actually affect the tower shield user...-2 to atk after leaving full defense with a tower shield (cuz its such a heavy darned thing, its tough to get moving). This would certainly make it tougher to move with it. As for nerfing the whole choke point tactic? I think this is a mistake, since that situation is one which users of the tower shield should be rewarded for (using good tactics)
And Int would make more sense as a requirement for it than the Str for the reason Pluisjen stated. Rather...a combination of both requirements I think. The tower shield as a tactic seems like the sort of thing which draws up memories of the Dwarven Defender prestige class from 3.5. Perhaps it could be more of a career choice for the character.
Anyways..using the drawback of having to use an off-hand weapon while using the shield, and having it make you slowed, make it a multiclass kinda thing...Then design some powers for use specifically with the shield. Well, I just did, but as I didn't really look up anything powers to balance them I am sure they are NOT balanced, but maybe this will spur the imagination:
Ideas
Tower Shield Specialist: Req: Str 15 and Int 15, and proficiency with the heavy shield. Benefit: You gain proficiency with the tower shield. You gain +1 bonus to AC and Reflex defense while wielding a tower shield and using Full Defense.
Mobile Defender. Tower Shield Specialist power (Lvl. 3)
Encounter * Martial
Move, Personal
Effect: As a free action you may take a move action without taking a penalty to attack for following a Full Defense action when wielding the tower shield, and if you were just in Full Defense you retain the +1 bonus to AC and Reflex defense during this movement.
Active Defense. Tower Shield Specialist power (Lvl. 6)
Daily, Utility * Martial
Minor, Personal
Effect: Until the end of the encounter or for the next five minutes, you may wield a weapon in your main hand normally while wielding a tower sheild.
Tower Shield Bash. Tower Shield Specialist (Lvl. 9)
Daily * Martial
Free Action, Personal
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, when you perform a Bull Rush action while wielding the tower shield, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll. If you hit with this action, you instead push the target 2 squares and may shift into either square the target just exited.
Tower Shield Specialist: Req: Str 15 and Int 15, and proficiency with the heavy shield. Benefit: You gain proficiency with the tower shield. You gain +1 bonus to AC and Reflex defense while wielding a tower shield and using Full Defense.
Mobile Defender. Tower Shield Specialist power (Lvl. 3)
Encounter * Martial
Move, Personal
Effect: As a free action you may take a move action without taking a penalty to attack for following a Full Defense action when wielding the tower shield, and if you were just in Full Defense you retain the +1 bonus to AC and Reflex defense during this movement.
Active Defense. Tower Shield Specialist power (Lvl. 6)
Daily, Utility * Martial
Minor, Personal
Effect: Until the end of the encounter or for the next five minutes, you may wield a weapon in your main hand normally while wielding a tower sheild.
Tower Shield Bash. Tower Shield Specialist (Lvl. 9)
Daily * Martial
Free Action, Personal
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, when you perform a Bull Rush action while wielding the tower shield, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll. If you hit with this action, you instead push the target 2 squares and may shift into either square the target just exited.
Anyways..using the drawback of having to use an off-hand weapon while using the shield, and having it make you slowed, make it a multiclass kinda thing...Then design some powers for use specifically with the shield. Well, I just did, but as I didn't really look up anything powers to balance them I am sure they are NOT balanced, but maybe this will spur the imagination:Ideas
Tower Shield Specialist: Req: Str 15 and Int 15, and proficiency with the heavy shield. Benefit: You gain proficiency with the tower shield. You gain +1 bonus to AC and Reflex defense while wielding a tower shield and using Full Defense.
Mobile Defender. Tower Shield Specialist power (Lvl. 3)
Encounter * Martial
Move, Personal
Effect: As a free action you may take a move action without taking a penalty to attack for following a Full Defense action when wielding the tower shield, and if you were just in Full Defense you retain the +1 bonus to AC and Reflex defense during this movement.
Active Defense. Tower Shield Specialist power (Lvl. 6)
Daily, Utility * Martial
Minor, Personal
Effect: Until the end of the encounter or for the next five minutes, you may wield a weapon in your main hand normally while wielding a tower sheild.
Tower Shield Bash. Tower Shield Specialist (Lvl. 9)
Daily * Martial
Free Action, Personal
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, when you perform a Bull Rush action while wielding the tower shield, you gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll. If you hit with this action, you instead push the target 2 squares and may shift into either square the target just exited.
Also I want to note that I would make it Int for using a Tower Shield, I'd say Strength and Constitution. Ya you have to be strong to carry it, but you have to have the endurance to make it effective.
If I remember correctly, historical tower shields were meant to be planted in the ground and used by crossbowmen. 3e tower shields were really just the shields used by Roman legionaries. Combining the two, I'd count it as a portable wall that takes a standard action to pick up and plant. You need a minor action to hold it up or to hold it up and move it to a different side, unless you use both hands. When it's planted, you gain cover on one side. While carrying it, you're slowed and grant combat advantage, but gain superior cover on two sides (since you can swing it a bit).
If I remember correctly, historical tower shields were meant to be planted in the ground and used by crossbowmen. 3e tower shields were really just the shields used by Roman legionaries. Combining the two, I'd count it as a portable wall that takes a standard action to pick up and plant. You need a minor action to hold it up or to hold it up and move it to a different side, unless you use both hands. When it's planted, you gain cover on one side. While carrying it, you're slowed and grant combat advantage, but gain superior cover on two sides (since you can swing it a bit).
hm, well that does make it cumbersome enough to offer to anyone. and makes it open to more improvements via powers
A real simple way is to make it a magic weapon that grants the heavy shield more AC and Reflex bonus (ups it to a +3) and give it a daily power that involves something about superior cover and/or concealment.
Thats actually...a good idea. Takes out the need for penalty mischief as well if you make it a normal shield with benefits, and have a level attached to it.
Consider what an 18 strength score means, and the strength scores to come as you level (20-28). Fighters in D&D are godly strong. Sure, no normal man may be able to run around carrying a tower shield. But your veteran fighter with a 23 strength score is no normal man, so I'm not sure that he'd be slowed by a tower shield, or take a penalty to attacks. In a similar vein, I see no reason to restrict his weapon to an off-hand weapon while wielding a tower shield.
Also, I don't agree with the intelligence requirement since pretty much anything the fighter does could be considered "tactical" and under the purview of intelligence. Rather, the feat (whatever it would be ) should require heavy shield proficiency and maybe 13/15 strength and possibly constitution (the latter representing the encumberance of the shield). If the shield is potent enough it could be a multiclass feat.
Granting combat advantage while holding the shield sort of negates the purpose of using a superior shield. Someone that is defense-minded isn't going to want to give up combat advantage most of the time.
I saw the suggestion that taking the total defense action (or was it second wind) with a tower shield grants you cover. I think that's a good take on it and pretty intuitive. Also I liked the ideas concerning bull rushing.
Yeah, and the shield could require a minor action to plant it, at which point you are immobilized but gain cover against all attacks, and it takes another minor action to rip the shield up and move again, and you lose the cover.
Great, now I'm picturing Gears of War 2.
...
......
I think I'll go play that.
I think some of these drawbacks are too steep or unnecessary. I think it'd be better to tone down the effect than stack on penalties.
Agreed. Too many penalties, and it's just not going to get used (unless someone just has to have one, no matter the cost).
Rather, the feat (whatever it would be ) should require heavy shield proficiency and maybe 13/15 strength and possibly constitution (the latter representing the encumberance of the shield). If the shield is potent enough it could be a multiclass feat.
That's how I've approached it, above (wherever I posted my idea). No Con requirement though (but I considered adding it).
I saw the suggestion that taking the total defense action (or was it second wind) with a tower shield grants you cover.
If it was mine, I actually suggested it on either action (since I figure both are extremely rare in any given encounter), as part of the multiclass feat.
I think that's a good take on it and pretty intuitive. Also I liked the ideas concerning bull rushing.
I believe babyj's multiclass-version featured more bull rushing options (which I, too, like a lot).
Ok here are some feat ideas I've come up with for the tower shield once we figure out how it works.
Brace the Wall
Prerequisite: Shield Wall Prof
Benefit: When the target of a Push/Pull/Slide, you may lessen the movement by 1. Also if you are using the shield for cover you may instead negate an ability that knocks you Prone.
Iron Barrier
Prerequisite: Shield Wall Prof
Benefit: While activly using the shield for cover you grant the cover bonus to an adjacent ally.
If the shield is potent enough it could be a multiclass feat.
...
I saw the suggestion that taking the total defense action (or was it second wind) with a tower shield grants you cover. I think that's a good take on it and pretty intuitive. Also I liked the ideas concerning bull rushing.
This.
I think multiclass is a good idea, and if you look at something like whips, nets, or bolas, you might get a good feel for appropriate power level.
For my 2 cents: let the tower shield always provide cover from melee and raged attacks and give a +3 shield bonus to AC and Reflex when you All Out Defense (AOD) or Second Wind. Give it a few power swap feats to flesh out the multiclass: things that reduce forced movement, protect allies, or provide DR could all be appropriate.
I think this is the most appropriate way to balance something like this.
I don't like the swapping into defensive stance idea, I think this is already well covered by AOD. I DO think that having a daily stance power as a feat would be appropriate; an encounter stance could also be fine (balance against the fighter encounter stances), but I can't think of a single an at-will stance. Regardless, it should fill the stance slot.
Making a stance at-will doesn't break the game however you are right the feat should be balanced against other stances because well from the sounds of it, that's what it is, and your right it is. The thing is it shouldn't be daily or encounter, because well its not an attack, its not doing damage, its just providing an Armor Class bonus OR attack roll penalty to your enemy.
Just because there is not one doesn't mean its game breaking. If I remember correctly there were no at-will utility powers, but now I've seen a dozen or so, and not all of them are high level. The new wizard utility at-will is 2nd level power and is very very useful.
There've been a handful of at-will Utility powers since day one. (Check the Cleric and Rogue in the PH1.)
Edit: I wanted to check and see, and I am wrong, the Rogue had an at-will 2nd level utility in the PHB.
Shall we, GreatFrito? *motions for GreatFrito to okay a collaborative thread*
Shall we, GreatFrito? *motions for GreatFrito to okay a collaborative thread*
Haha, rock on. Though I'll be of little use until the weekend (school- and work-related "real" projects to do).
Tower Shield
+2 shield bonus to AC and Reflex
-2 skill check penalty
Tower Shield Proficiency
Prerequisite: Str 15, Con 13
Benefit: You gain proficiency with Tower Shields. In addition, when you use second wind or total defense while using a Tower Shield, you gain cover until the start of your next turn.
Tower Shield Specialization
Prerequisite: Level 11, Str 17, Con 15
Benefit: The shield bonus your Tower shield applies to AC and Reflex also applies to Fortitude, and you don't take the normal skill check penalty for using Tower Shields.
Tower Shield Mastery
Prerequisite: Level 21, Str 21, Con 17
Benefit: When using second wind or total defense while using a Tower Shield, you gain superior cover rather than gaining cover.