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| #1SabelkattenAug 30, 2010 12:00:35 | An idea I've been toying with for a while. I don't like the multiclass Druid feat as a "proxy lycontropy" feat - primarly because it's pretty much crap, but also because it doesn't give much feeling of turning into something different. So I came up with this instead. The basic idea is that the change is what's limited - at the lowest level you can only change into a beast or back to normal during an encounter, making it a choice of using your (hopefully better!) class powers for the rest of the encounter, or the benefits of the beast form. Spending a few more feats allow a daily change into the classic hybrid form, bringing you the benefits without the penalties. There's also a choice of Lycantropy type. Either "Sneaky" (rat, cat or the like) which brings mostly noncombat benefits making it a good choice for offensive characters, or "Ferocious" (wolf, bear or the like) which gives a bit less advantages but a better attack, making it a good choice for weaker fighters that can use it if trapped in a melee. The feats:
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| #2Neutronium_DragonAug 30, 2010 12:23:14 | There are a number of mechanics-balance problems with these proposals, but an entirely feat-based system is liable to impose far too much of an opportunity cost to be worthwhile. There are also some thematic clashes with the nature of lycanthropes in 4E within this proposal. This sort of thing might work better as a paragon path rather than as a feat chain, but it probably works best if you take the actual 4E approach that lycanthropes are their own race(s). An example of this is my Werewolf PC writeup, but there are others floating around the forums. Link: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... |
| #3greatfritoAug 30, 2010 13:13:49 | Folks have tried feats in the past too. I know I tried it, since everyone else was doing it. I prefer it to be a bloodline option (feats, essentially), but that's partially because I vastly prefer the "classic" Werewolf fluff, where someone can be bitten and become a werewolf. |
| #4SabelkattenAug 30, 2010 14:37:21 | Yeah, I've seen several race designs. Like Greatfrito I much prefer lycantropy as a curse/blessing that anyone can contract, thought. A Werewolf race is fine if that is the goal, but doesn't do anything if you want an Elf Wizard turned werecat... I also tried to add some elements that has been missing from the writeups I've seen. Most importantly making shifting a real choice. The common "minor action shift at any time" means there's not much point to it - either it's a hybrid form in which case the advantage it can give has to be very small (about what a feat/racial power would deliver without any shapechange mechanic) or it's a beast form (which is pretty much the same, thought it might deliver marginally more due to taking away the hands). The way I did it, with only one change per encounter, the beast form can deliver a lot more due to the character being stuck after shifting. The choice between sneaky and ferocious also means both all types of characters have an alternative that benefits them, without making it overpowered. As for feat cost - well, you know what you're paying for, so it's up to the player if he wants to pay it. It's useful from the start, spending more feats on it just makes it better - you don't need to spend more feats. |
| #5greatfritoAug 30, 2010 15:44:44 | Okay, actual feedback time. First, just note that I would go about this differently (obviously, since my own attempt is different ). I'm going to limit my comments to within your direction.1.) Personally, I'd make it a Bloodline. The different "types" of feats really only serve a minor balance/"sense" role, but I think it would fit here. It would be one of the best Heritages for an adventurer to acquire later in his career (by contact with a Lycanthrope), but that shouldn't preclude it from being a Bloodline. 2.) I think your Shapeshift power is pretty weak, as of the one feat. As an Encounter option that knocks out the majority of your power choices, I can't imagine it getting a ton of use. The Shifters' racial power has similar effects, but doesn't restrict power choice any. 3.) Both of the bite powers seem... off. I'd use "primary ability modifier" in place of (attribute) - like the new Dark Sun themes do (in all of their powers). Make the bite powers scale like normal basic attacks (1dX at 1st-20th level; 2dX at 21st level), and if you want to include Critical damage with them, have it start at +1d6 (or whatever), and increase at at least 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26. That would keep it in line with Magic weapons (which I'm guessing was the goal). 4.) I'd rather you make Shapeshift an at-will option, than twice per encounter, but Experienced Shifter doesn't seem too bad. 5.) I think Great Lycanthrope has the same problem with being too weak. You've spent two feats, and what can you show for it? A minor action basic-attack equivalent once per encounter? +1 Speed? +1 Reflex? +1 Fort? +2 Speed when charging? These are all fairly minor benefits, and the combinations don't really feel worth two whole feats. EDIT: Oh, yikes, and it's a daily power? Yeah, it's pretty darn weak. 6.) Lycanthropic Regeneration might actually make some of this worthwhile (maybe), but it's like a weaker version of one of the Shifter racial powers. 7.) Sneaky Evasion is non-functional - you can't use Immediate actions on your turn, and you're very unlikely to trigger Opportunity Attacks on other turns (though it is possible). If it were a free action, it would work. If you're worried about balance, consider making it "Once per turn as a free action" - which keeps it limited, but makes it functional. It still feels weak to me, but it's probably just fine. 8.) Ferocious Assault seems really sub-par to me. It's limited to Beast powers (of which you have... one? Unless you're a Druid?), and only gives a fairly minor damage bonus. As-is, it's essentially just a Druid feat - rarely is it going to see use with other characters. Just leave it limited to "When in beast or hybrid form..." and it's probably good to go. Woo. That was more than I thought. Anyways. ![]() |
| #6SabelkattenAug 30, 2010 17:12:02 | Nice comments! Thanks!Okay, actual feedback time. I don't have the books that introduce bloodlines, so I don't really know what kind of difference that makes... 2.) I think your Shapeshift power is pretty weak, as of the one feat. As an Encounter option that knocks out the majority of your power choices, I can't imagine it getting a ton of use. The Shifters' racial power has similar effects, but doesn't restrict power choice any. But the effects are quite big. +2 speed, +1 reflex and +2 to 3 (important!) skills is something like 3 feats' worth of power. True, you can't really fight that - but you're not supposed to. Use it to sneak in before a fight, or run away if it goes badly. +1 speed, +1 fortitude and +1 to a less useful skill isn't so good, but 1D10 damage is quite a lot for a controller or leader class. If you change after you've used your encounter and (possibly) daily powers it should be a nice boost. Of course if it's much to weak I could make the defense bonus or bite damage larger. Comparing it to the shifter's racial powers isn't really fair - you still keep all other racial powers you have! On second thought maybe it should be a move action. Or possibly combine with making a bite attack. 3.) Both of the bite powers seem... off. I'd use "primary ability modifier" in place of (attribute) - like the new Dark Sun themes do (in all of their powers). Make the bite powers scale like normal basic attacks (1dX at 1st-20th level; 2dX at 21st level), and if you want to include Critical damage with them, have it start at +1d6 (or whatever), and increase at at least 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26. That would keep it in line with Magic weapons (which I'm guessing was the goal). I just lined them up like most racial (offensive) powers seem to be... Honestly, the only things I've set is that: A) They should use the best attribute the character has B) "Sneaky" should go against Reflex, "Ferocious" against AC C) "Sneaky" causes 1D6 damage at level 1, "Ferocious" causes 1D10 (maybe 1D12?) Just how they should scale up I'm not sure about... +X at paragon and again at epic seems to be standard. How would you write them? 4.) I'd rather you make Shapeshift an at-will option, than twice per encounter, but Experienced Shifter doesn't seem too bad. Erring on the safe side. I think making it an at-will makes it rather overpowered. Consider a Rogue Sneaky Lycantrope - if he attacks/shifts/moves and next turn moves/shifts/attacks he'll get +2 speed, +1 reflex defense and 2 extra 1-square shifts (I probably shouldn't call shapechanging "shifting" now that I think of it...) while still being able to attack like normal! In fact there should probably be a some special rule for sneak attack and bite... It's not very fair if a ranger can use Hunter's Quarry in beast form but a Rogue can't use Sneak Attack at all - but if sneak attack can bu used at full strength a Rogue that's burned the encounter/daily powers he wants to use can shift and go to town without losing anything, really! 5.) I think Great Lycanthrope has the same problem with being too weak. You've spent two feats, and what can you show for it? A minor action basic-attack equivalent once per encounter? +1 Speed? +1 Reflex? +1 Fort? +2 Speed when charging? These are all fairly minor benefits, and the combinations don't really feel worth two whole feats. EDIT: Oh, yikes, and it's a daily power? Yeah, it's pretty darn weak. 3 feats in total (Lycantrope, Experienced Shifter, Great Lycantrope) actually... Again, I don't know just how scary it might be. A minor action attack like that is a class encounter power - that's quite big for a feat, you know! +1 speed is a second feat all by itself. My thinking was that the first two feats should be "pay for themselves" so the last one should only give as much benefit as a one feat. But maybe it should be improved a little, say +1 speed extra (keeping the speed bonus of the beast form). 6.) Lycanthropic Regeneration might actually make some of this worthwhile (maybe), but it's like a weaker version of one of the Shifter racial powers. Again it's just one feat while the Shifter "pays" with pretty much his entire list of racial features. So I don't see anything wrong with it being quite a bit weaker. 7.) Sneaky Evasion is non-functional - you can't use Immediate actions on your turn, and you're very unlikely to trigger Opportunity Attacks on other turns (though it is possible). If it were a free action, it would work. If you're worried about balance, consider making it "Once per turn as a free action" - which keeps it limited, but makes it functional. It still feels weak to me, but it's probably just fine. A well, free action is what I meant (in our group we just ignore the wording about when you can use interrupt/reaction powers since there are several cases where it doesn't make much sense!). The way it's supposed to work should be pretty strong in the right circumstances. Try to dodge past multiple opponents. The first enemy makes an attack against you - and then you shift away from any other enemy that threatens that square! Unless, of course, you're so boxed in that they can still reach you after you've shifted, but that should be avoidable in many cases. 8.) Ferocious Assault seems really sub-par to me. It's limited to Beast powers (of which you have... one? Unless you're a Druid?), and only gives a fairly minor damage bonus. As-is, it's essentially just a Druid feat - rarely is it going to see use with other characters. Just leave it limited to "When in beast or hybrid form..." and it's probably good to go. The standard charge damage bonus feat only gives a +2, so I didn't want to go much higher than that. And as you point out, it's already useful for Druids - I can't make it to good for Druids! Maybe it should be restricted specifically to Ferocious Bite and give a somewhat larger bonus - either more damage or pushing the target (knocking the target prone would be thematically nice, but certainly overpowered!). |