Feat: Cantrip - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Feat: Cantrip

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
GreyMorgan
Jun 16, 2008 22:14:16 I looked around and haven't seen a suggestion for this house feat anywhere. I think that class features can be made available as feats or perhaps that is should be available as feats. So thinking that I have an idea for a feat to give multiclassed wizards.

Train Cantrip [Wizard]
Prerequisites: Arcane Initiate feat.
Benefit: You learn two cantrips that you can select from the list of wizard cantrips.

I think that would be fair giving 2 at will. I could see all 4 argued but that seems excessive. ::shrug::

I could see a similiar feat to open up Warlock's cursing, marking from paladin, fighters, or warlords etc. Any thoughts on this?
#2
aluman
Jun 16, 2008 23:23:13 Balance wise its fine.

The only note I will make is that opening class abilities through feats, could lead to marginalize initial class selection if thats something that you are ok with, then proceed.
#3
GreyMorgan
Jun 17, 2008 9:22:09 I don't actually have a problem with it because your going to have to burn feats to really benefit. But it lets you pick up that special feature of your second class that defines it for you. We actually see an example of such a feature to feat in the Ritual feat. Rituals being a class feature of clerics and wizards.

Anyway I'm glad to hear that is sounds balanced.
#4
Sailing_Pirate_Ryan
Jun 21, 2008 0:57:40 I've created another version of this same idea, but I came at it from a different direction. Whereas your feat builds on Arcane Initiate, my feat competes with it - you can take one or the other, but not both. Nor any other multi-class feat, for that matter.

This feat represents the casual arcanist or the mage's academy dropout. Very little "power" is gained with this feat, but I happen to think that the cantrips are fun, and that's the most important thing.

Charlatan [Wizard]
Prerequisites: Int 11 or Eladrin.
Benefit: Arcana is a trained skill and you gain the Cantrips class feature (p.158).
#5
GreyMorgan
Jun 21, 2008 12:18:11 That isn't a bad aproach for someone who just wants a bit of magic without going the full multiclass route. Your version is good and certainly viable.
#6
ceiling90
Jun 21, 2008 17:30:06 I think a feat for a single cantrip feels the most balanced, since then you basically gain a modicum of magic, but really don't at all seem to encroach on the wizard at all.
#7
eldiran
Jun 21, 2008 22:10:43 Aye, ceiling, I agree. I was recently attempting to recreate a 3e Rogue/Wizard and I was really pining over that Mage Hand at-will... (disarming traps from a distance, anyone?) I suggested to my DM that I might bend the rules a bit and take Mage Hand via Arcane Initiate (making it an encounter power, but worth it). That seems the most fair to me, and I hope my DM approves it.
#8
theninjad
Aug 15, 2008 13:40:07 I can't decide if I would allow this or not. It doesn't seem broken but I can't be sure.
#9
wyld_mutation
Aug 15, 2008 13:48:52 Just don't let them have prestidigitation.

And why does everyone think that rituals are a feature?

Look: Ritual Caster is a feat. Wizards and clerics get the feat (read it, you get the feat as part of the feature) and get "extra" stuff.

If you apply the "Ritual Caster is a feature" logic to a ranger then you get the idea that the feats granted by ranger specialty are actually class features made into feats.

Hence: THe Ritual Caster feat is not a class feature which was made into a feat. It is a feat granted by a class feature. Please will people just get it right?

That rant aside: It isn't OP, however it probably isn't always gonna have a feat burned on it. Because that's what it is, burning a feat for something which may never be used beyond flavor.
#10
theninjad
Aug 15, 2008 14:01:39 For me, I want people from a certain background that have learned a few magical tricks to be able to use something like Light, Mage Hand, or even more than that Prestidigitation without being a full-blown mage. As the DM, I could just say "you can do this" but I would rather there be a feat for it or something like that.
#11
viatos
Aug 15, 2008 15:52:30 Thank you so much for this. I have been constantly lamenting the impossibility of picking up cantrips ever since I got my PHB. As for balance, I'd say it looks good...I think people kneejerk against Prestidigitation because it's so cool, variable, and useful, but in pure mechanical combat-related advantage it's the least of anyone's worries. Still, for argument's sake, how about this:

Hedge Wizard
Tier: Heroic
Prerequisite: Arcane Initiate
Description: You gain the ghost sound, light, and mage hand powers (see the wizard's Cantrips class feature) as at-will abilities.

Arcane Initiate
Stuff: Blah blah blah and you get prestidigitation (see the wizard's Cantrips class feature) as an at-will ability.
#12
theninjad
Aug 15, 2008 16:26:47 Arcane Initiate is already the name of the Wizard multiclass feat. Also, giving Prestidigitation instead of an extra encounter power would make that particular multiclass feat very weak. Giving Prestidigitation in addition to what the feat already give you would be better, in terms of balance, but would also be unfair.

While I like the idea of Hedge Wizard, I think the solution is not yet perfect.
#13
viatos
Aug 17, 2008 4:23:01 You've misread my intention; your second sentence is it. Multiclass feats in general are pretty godawful; tacking a cantrip which, despite its epic-level desirability, possesses extremely limited gamebreaking potential onto one of them is about as unbalancing as saying Hellfire Blood also gives +5 to checks made to identify kobolds.

A simple balance tweak would be to soup up all the multiclass feats, or set them all on fire and find something else to tack Prestidigitation onto.
#14
sphynx01
Aug 17, 2008 4:34:17 Based on the Multi-Class feats, any use of Cantrips by non-wizards should change them to per-encounter or per-day, not at-will. I'm not opposed to it, originally I made a Ranger with Mage Hands (Arcane Initiate Multi-Classing) until I found out that simply wasn't allowed.

I'd love to try it again with a feat that allows Cantrips, and since it's a Minor-Sustain, you could get Mage Hand to last all day long if you really wanted to. But the other feats imply that balance is maintained by increasing the time between when you can do something by 1 step.
#15
machmoth
Aug 18, 2008 13:53:43 I was thinking something similar. While cantrips are more flavorful than useful most of the time, if you want to be in keeping with the precedent, they'd scale down to an encounter power. By the nature of the spells, it's unlikely you'd even want to use them more than once an encounter, so perhaps make them like Channel Divinity. You get all of the cantrips, but you gain them all as a single encounter power. For example, if you use Mage Hand in an encounter, you can't use Ghost Sound or any other cantrip for the remainder of the encounter.
#16
viatos
Aug 19, 2008 5:50:27 Well, but the precedent is kind of terrible. We have Dilettante, which so far is underpowered (in my experience, anyway), and we have multiclass feats, which are largely fail outside of specialized exploit builds. And, again, you're trying to compare cantrips to attack powers. This is wrong.

Making them work like Channel Divinity is a step even further into wrongness; there will be plenty of times when using cantrips (even the same ones) many times within 5 minutes is desirable, and limiting them this way is a pretty hard nerf.

I mean, Ghost Sound - might fool an enemy into taking one or two advantageous actions. Let's equate this to an Int vs Will attack whose only result is Slide 1. At-wills are better then this.

Mage Hand - saves you some time and effort. Potentially very useful, though, at least as much as Ghost Sound - but it won't be killing anyone very often, or indeed altering encounters unless they're special in some way - you have to get Magic Sword, or Pull Lever. A situational power. Let's say in one out of ten encounters, it has an effect on par with an encounter power. That's not as strong as one solid at-will like Scorching Burst.

Light - you can toss torches as minor actions with 100% accuracy, basically. Yippee.

Prestidigitation - We all love it, we all want it, it's amazing, we know - but its most impressive use is hiding small things.

None of these, on their own, measures up to the combat advantage having an additional at-will power would give you - three of them together (like my feat) are just about the right power level, I'd say. I don't see how you justify making them encounter powers, taking feats for them on a one-for-one basis, or trying to compare them to Channel Divinity (something you will absolutely have a use for in every encounter - just sometimes, it will end before you use up your better options).

Please, let's not forget the lessons of the 3.5 PHB - the designers can epic fail with the precedents they set just as badly as CustServ can. CustServ said the Dread Necromancer's Lich ability doesn't make you a lich, but it was the designers who gave us CoDzilla vs. Ftr20.

Cantrips for all!
#17
sphynx01
Aug 19, 2008 10:35:27 Just an FYI, Cantrips are the bomb. We use them far to regularly. Either a nice Ghost Sound due to lack of cover in order to distract long enough for our Stealth guys to get into position, to a Mage Hand that has no "has to stay within 5 squares" which can perform the same task, drop rocks on someone's head, steal their sword from its scabbard, etc; or can go some 25 squares ahead and set off traps.

Despite that, I'd be ok with them being At-Will for Arcane Initiates, but making them Encounter Powers keeps them within the current mechanics of the game, and as a Wizard, I'm pretty sure that you'd rarely, if ever, need more than 1 Cantrip casting per Encounter.
#18
irrationalsanity
Aug 23, 2008 7:10:42 This is an interesting discussion. I found it because I was thinking that the Cantrips would be a perfect Dilettante for my friendly neighborood half-elf.

Consider what cantrips would be if there were such a thing in the real-world: Training Exercises. Little things to give the aspiring Wizard a feel for working with the various aspects of magic. What is more natural for someone who is "dablling" in the arts to pick up?

But according to the rules, what does our dabbler actually get? A full on blast of Magic Missile? "Gee, I'm just dabbling, and couldn't push a plate off a table, but look! I can Zap small enimies into oblivion!"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 GreyMorgan Jun 16, 2008 22:14:16	I looked around and haven't seen a suggestion for this house feat anywhere. I think that class features can be made available as feats or perhaps that is should be available as feats. So thinking that I have an idea for a feat to give multiclassed wizards. Train Cantrip [Wizard] Prerequisites: Arcane Initiate feat. Benefit: You learn two cantrips that you can select from the list of wizard cantrips. I think that would be fair giving 2 at will. I could see all 4 argued but that seems excessive. ::shrug:: I could see a similiar feat to open up Warlock's cursing, marking from paladin, fighters, or warlords etc. Any thoughts on this?
#2 aluman Jun 16, 2008 23:23:13	Balance wise its fine. The only note I will make is that opening class abilities through feats, could lead to marginalize initial class selection if thats something that you are ok with, then proceed.
#3 GreyMorgan Jun 17, 2008 9:22:09	I don't actually have a problem with it because your going to have to burn feats to really benefit. But it lets you pick up that special feature of your second class that defines it for you. We actually see an example of such a feature to feat in the Ritual feat. Rituals being a class feature of clerics and wizards. Anyway I'm glad to hear that is sounds balanced.
#4 Sailing_Pirate_Ryan Jun 21, 2008 0:57:40	I've created another version of this same idea, but I came at it from a different direction. Whereas your feat builds on Arcane Initiate, my feat competes with it - you can take one or the other, but not both. Nor any other multi-class feat, for that matter. This feat represents the casual arcanist or the mage's academy dropout. Very little "power" is gained with this feat, but I happen to think that the cantrips are fun, and that's the most important thing. Charlatan [Wizard] Prerequisites: Int 11 or Eladrin. Benefit: Arcana is a trained skill and you gain the Cantrips class feature (p.158).
#5 GreyMorgan Jun 21, 2008 12:18:11	That isn't a bad aproach for someone who just wants a bit of magic without going the full multiclass route. Your version is good and certainly viable.
#6 ceiling90 Jun 21, 2008 17:30:06	I think a feat for a single cantrip feels the most balanced, since then you basically gain a modicum of magic, but really don't at all seem to encroach on the wizard at all.
#7 eldiran Jun 21, 2008 22:10:43	Aye, ceiling, I agree. I was recently attempting to recreate a 3e Rogue/Wizard and I was really pining over that Mage Hand at-will... (disarming traps from a distance, anyone?) I suggested to my DM that I might bend the rules a bit and take Mage Hand via Arcane Initiate (making it an encounter power, but worth it). That seems the most fair to me, and I hope my DM approves it.
#8 theninjad Aug 15, 2008 13:40:07	I can't decide if I would allow this or not. It doesn't seem broken but I can't be sure.
#9 wyld_mutation Aug 15, 2008 13:48:52	Just don't let them have prestidigitation. And why does everyone think that rituals are a feature? Look: Ritual Caster is a feat. Wizards and clerics get the feat (read it, you get the feat as part of the feature) and get "extra" stuff. If you apply the "Ritual Caster is a feature" logic to a ranger then you get the idea that the feats granted by ranger specialty are actually class features made into feats. Hence: THe Ritual Caster feat is not a class feature which was made into a feat. It is a feat granted by a class feature. Please will people just get it right? That rant aside: It isn't OP, however it probably isn't always gonna have a feat burned on it. Because that's what it is, burning a feat for something which may never be used beyond flavor.
#10 theninjad Aug 15, 2008 14:01:39	For me, I want people from a certain background that have learned a few magical tricks to be able to use something like Light, Mage Hand, or even more than that Prestidigitation without being a full-blown mage. As the DM, I could just say "you can do this" but I would rather there be a feat for it or something like that.
#11 viatos Aug 15, 2008 15:52:30	Thank you so much for this. I have been constantly lamenting the impossibility of picking up cantrips ever since I got my PHB. As for balance, I'd say it looks good...I think people kneejerk against Prestidigitation because it's so cool, variable, and useful, but in pure mechanical combat-related advantage it's the least of anyone's worries. Still, for argument's sake, how about this: Hedge Wizard Tier: Heroic Prerequisite: Arcane Initiate Description: You gain the ghost sound, light, and mage hand powers (see the wizard's Cantrips class feature) as at-will abilities. Arcane Initiate Stuff: Blah blah blah and you get prestidigitation (see the wizard's Cantrips class feature) as an at-will ability.
#12 theninjad Aug 15, 2008 16:26:47	Arcane Initiate is already the name of the Wizard multiclass feat. Also, giving Prestidigitation instead of an extra encounter power would make that particular multiclass feat very weak. Giving Prestidigitation in addition to what the feat already give you would be better, in terms of balance, but would also be unfair. While I like the idea of Hedge Wizard, I think the solution is not yet perfect.
#13 viatos Aug 17, 2008 4:23:01	You've misread my intention; your second sentence is it. Multiclass feats in general are pretty godawful; tacking a cantrip which, despite its epic-level desirability, possesses extremely limited gamebreaking potential onto one of them is about as unbalancing as saying Hellfire Blood also gives +5 to checks made to identify kobolds. A simple balance tweak would be to soup up all the multiclass feats, or set them all on fire and find something else to tack Prestidigitation onto.
#14 sphynx01 Aug 17, 2008 4:34:17	Based on the Multi-Class feats, any use of Cantrips by non-wizards should change them to per-encounter or per-day, not at-will. I'm not opposed to it, originally I made a Ranger with Mage Hands (Arcane Initiate Multi-Classing) until I found out that simply wasn't allowed. I'd love to try it again with a feat that allows Cantrips, and since it's a Minor-Sustain, you could get Mage Hand to last all day long if you really wanted to. But the other feats imply that balance is maintained by increasing the time between when you can do something by 1 step.
#15 machmoth Aug 18, 2008 13:53:43	I was thinking something similar. While cantrips are more flavorful than useful most of the time, if you want to be in keeping with the precedent, they'd scale down to an encounter power. By the nature of the spells, it's unlikely you'd even want to use them more than once an encounter, so perhaps make them like Channel Divinity. You get all of the cantrips, but you gain them all as a single encounter power. For example, if you use Mage Hand in an encounter, you can't use Ghost Sound or any other cantrip for the remainder of the encounter.
#16 viatos Aug 19, 2008 5:50:27	Well, but the precedent is kind of terrible. We have Dilettante, which so far is underpowered (in my experience, anyway), and we have multiclass feats, which are largely fail outside of specialized exploit builds. And, again, you're trying to compare cantrips to attack powers. This is wrong. Making them work like Channel Divinity is a step even further into wrongness; there will be plenty of times when using cantrips (even the same ones) many times within 5 minutes is desirable, and limiting them this way is a pretty hard nerf. I mean, Ghost Sound - might fool an enemy into taking one or two advantageous actions. Let's equate this to an Int vs Will attack whose only result is Slide 1. At-wills are better then this. Mage Hand - saves you some time and effort. Potentially very useful, though, at least as much as Ghost Sound - but it won't be killing anyone very often, or indeed altering encounters unless they're special in some way - you have to get Magic Sword, or Pull Lever. A situational power. Let's say in one out of ten encounters, it has an effect on par with an encounter power. That's not as strong as one solid at-will like Scorching Burst. Light - you can toss torches as minor actions with 100% accuracy, basically. Yippee. Prestidigitation - We all love it, we all want it, it's amazing, we know - but its most impressive use is hiding small things. None of these, on their own, measures up to the combat advantage having an additional at-will power would give you - three of them together (like my feat) are just about the right power level, I'd say. I don't see how you justify making them encounter powers, taking feats for them on a one-for-one basis, or trying to compare them to Channel Divinity (something you will absolutely have a use for in every encounter - just sometimes, it will end before you use up your better options). Please, let's not forget the lessons of the 3.5 PHB - the designers can epic fail with the precedents they set just as badly as CustServ can. CustServ said the Dread Necromancer's Lich ability doesn't make you a lich, but it was the designers who gave us CoDzilla vs. Ftr20. Cantrips for all!
#17 sphynx01 Aug 19, 2008 10:35:27	Just an FYI, Cantrips are the bomb. We use them far to regularly. Either a nice Ghost Sound due to lack of cover in order to distract long enough for our Stealth guys to get into position, to a Mage Hand that has no "has to stay within 5 squares" which can perform the same task, drop rocks on someone's head, steal their sword from its scabbard, etc; or can go some 25 squares ahead and set off traps. Despite that, I'd be ok with them being At-Will for Arcane Initiates, but making them Encounter Powers keeps them within the current mechanics of the game, and as a Wizard, I'm pretty sure that you'd rarely, if ever, need more than 1 Cantrip casting per Encounter.
#18 irrationalsanity Aug 23, 2008 7:10:42	This is an interesting discussion. I found it because I was thinking that the Cantrips would be a perfect Dilettante for my friendly neighborood half-elf. Consider what cantrips would be if there were such a thing in the real-world: Training Exercises. Little things to give the aspiring Wizard a feel for working with the various aspects of magic. What is more natural for someone who is "dablling" in the arts to pick up? But according to the rules, what does our dabbler actually get? A full on blast of Magic Missile? "Gee, I'm just dabbling, and couldn't push a plate off a table, but look! I can Zap small enimies into oblivion!"