Since i couldn't figure out why, i thought it must have been a feat, but since there is nothing in the phb, i thought i would make my own and see what you guys think! So:
DRAGONBORN WINGS [DRAGONBORN]
Prerequisites: can only be taken at 1st level.
Benefit: You gain fly speed 6. your fly speed improves by 1 at 11th level, and by 1 again at 21st level.
I actually let a player of mine take "Dragon Wings" as a feat for their Dragonborn... we took the description from a 3.5 book (Draconomicon, maybe? Don't remember) and I took a bit out to make it balanced. Basically, the end result was that she got +10 to Jump checks (yes, Jump checks only) and that she could glide down from any height when carrying a light (read: not heavy) load, provided she had the space to move forward in the air as well.
How many ways are there to get fly in 4e? even opening the MM I don't find any means for a player to get a flight speed. Just the few utility spells of the Wizard.
There's the winged boots on page 247 of the PHB, and the ring of flight on page 251. Those both give fly speed equal to normal speed for about a turn. The flying carpet on 254 is a more permanent solution, but has a few drawbacks when it comes to defense. I'd say that flight as an inherent character trait should be an epic feat, if it's a feat at all. Most sources of flight are fairly limited.
That said, the tier descriptions do imply flight as being a reasonably standard feature of paragon and epic adventures, with it being much more common in the latter.
After reading through the monster manual a little bit, i noticed that one of the dragonborn in it has wings.
Since i couldn't figure out why, i thought it must have been a feat, but since there is nothing in the phb, i thought i would make my own and see what you guys think! So:
DRAGONBORN WINGS [DRAGONBORN]
Prerequisites: can only be taken at 1st level.
Drop this entirely. Really flight is more paragon level anyway, but with retraining of feats it either sorely limits the dragonborn or creates a arms race (IE, it Might be useful therefor you Have to have it.).
Benefit: You gain fly speed 6. your fly speed improves by 1 at 11th level, and by 1 again at 21st level.
Make it clumsy and make it paragon for balance reasons. as a suggestion.
1. I thought it should be first level or never, since you are either born with wings or you aren't.
2. I increased the flight speed because the dragonborn champion had fly speed 8, and since she was lvl 24 (?), i thought that was how it should work.
3. If you don't have ranged weapons (which i won't, unless a longspear counts) what benefit does flight really give you?
4. Almost (if not) all the flight powers suck. what possible benefit could you get from such a short duration of flight?
i hope none of you take offence. I'll probably be a little less rude in the morning.
But, what if i made the glide version (eldarin's suggestion) as the first feat, then made the improved version (granting clumsy fly speed) a paragon feat? then maybe an epic feat to increase the speed and maneuverability?
i understand everyone's comments, however:
1. I thought it should be first level or never, since you are either born with wings or you aren't.
Let them all have vestigal wings, this feat causes blood to flow to them and enlarges them.
2. I increased the flight speed because the dragonborn champion had fly speed 8, and since she was lvl 24 (?), i thought that was how it should work.
I am not worried about that.
3. If you don't have ranged weapons (which i won't, unless a longspear counts) what benefit does flight really give you?
You can avoid hostile terrain, avoid defenders, and get out of area affects. (Plus you cause DM headaches in factoring the Pythogrean Therom for your range ;)).
4. Almost (if not) all the flight powers suck. what possible benefit could you get from such a short duration of flight?
See above. Until your next turn Flight 6 means 12 squares in which hostile terrain and adversaries are not hindrances. by comparison the Eladrin can only cover 6.
i hope none of you take offence. I'll probably be a little less rude in the morning.
But, what if i made the glide version (eldarin's suggestion) as the first feat, then made the improved version (granting clumsy fly speed) a paragon feat? then maybe an epic feat to increase the speed and maneuverability?
That would work ok.
overland flight at paragon
clumsy flight at epic
"You have flight with a speed equal to your con modifier"
4 fly is better than 6 walk in hostile terrain and that's with an ability 18.
I'm not exactly a balance guru but that seems a little better than gimping dragon-breath.
Tack on a jump bonus and fall damage removal and you're good.
Maybe:
Dragon Wings
Req- 1st level, Dragonborn or Kobold.
Effect- You gain a fly speed equal to your constitution or strength modifier determined when you take this feat. You ignore fall damage so long as you are conscious, and take only 1d10 damage if you are uncoscious regardless of height fallen. +2 to all jump checks (I left it at this due to a discussion on another board). You may glide indefinitely losing 1 height for each 5 horizontal travel.
Balance wise? You have a minimum flight speed of 1, if you have a particularly high stat it can get to what 15? (ability 40 I believe?)
Fast later but then by high levels you should have plenty of movement options anyway. I figure it carries all the bonuses you wanted and is relatively well balanced. What do you think?
Flight
Prerequisite: Dragonborn
You grow a pair of dragon wings, Fly: Move +2 (Good) and falling damage reduced to zero or minimum if space doesn't permit landing.
Tier: Paragon
I did something similar for a celestial race I developed for my campaign.
Bel
Aluman, in our campaign, wings (and tails) are signs of nobility among the dragonborn. Not that being noble grants you anything other than a little extra respect from other dragonborn. but i digress.
Now i need a tail feat. first thought: tail slash (A la dragons) as an encounter/daily power, with paragon and epic feats to improve the damage or the use limit. think that would work ok?
Drop this entirely. Really flight is more paragon level anyway, but with retraining of feats it either sorely limits the dragonborn or creates a arms race (IE, it Might be useful therefor you Have to have it.).
Make it clumsy and make it paragon for balance reasons. as a suggestion.
I agree, drop the 1st lv prereq, and make it Paragon. As for being born with them or not, the previous suggestion of extra blood flow isn't bad, or they could grow them at a certain stage of maturity. You could even make it a requirement of the feat that you are weakened until you rest for a full day (24 hours) because of the intense pain while they are growing (they grow when you take the feat so you'd better have the opportunity for some downtime or it's gonna be hard on you).
That being said, drop the bonus mvmt at higher levels, make it equal to your base mvmt, and have the mvmt penalties for armour doubled when flying, would be my take (though basing it on Str or Con mod isn't bad either). Keep Wyld's suggestions for falling and gliding too.
By basing the maximum speed on their ability bonus you weaken it at lower levels by making sure they can't be too fast. At higher levels it outstrips other forms of movement. Since flight provokes attacks of oppurtunity, and flying over someone actually require a change in elevation, being available at 1st level probably isn't too bad.
You can always make the rule "Flying through an opponents space requires 2 squares of movement." Thus having 18 in the relevant ability only means that you'll be able to pass though one enemy (while provoking an AoO). And being able to fly four squares won't necessarily allow you to circumvent every trap, since a medium creature would likely be too heavy for you to carry. Thus you only gain a minimal advantage in combat (especially since there are at least some teleportation powers open to most characters) and a small bionus for exploration.
PC-"I fly up four but I can't reach this ledge so I have to grab onto the wall, what's the DC?"
DM- "The wall is extremely smooth, DC 30."
PC- "I guess this isn't going to work, I glide back down."
And note that the glide down require a circle that you can spiral in so you won't always be able to protect yourself from the fall. A square of some specific size, im not sure what size would ve good, and you tmove twice each round (You cannot take an attack without some feat to grant you the ability to attack while flying) so you glide down at a 30 degree angle or so.
I don't know. I think it's workable since if you can't glide you'll have to dive and take damage (as a dive is too steep for you to dissipate speed without first pulling out of it.)
Heroic Tier
Dragonwrought Heritage [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Con 13, 1st level only
Benefit: You gain wings and a non-prehensile tail. You can use your wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height, and allowing 4 squares of forward travel for every 1 square of descent. Your glide speed is 6 (clumsy). If you become unconscious while in midair, you fall and take 1d10 points of damage, no matter the distance of the fall.
Tail Slash [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dragonwrought Heritage, 4th level
Benefit: You can use Tail Slash as a daily power.
(not sure how to format powers
)Tail Slash
As your opponent's blow fails to hit home, you take the opportunity to strike him with an unexpected weapon...
Daily
Immideate reaction
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Trigger: When a melee attack misses the character
Hit: 1d4 + Strength modifier damage.
Paragon Tier
Greater Dragonwrought Heritage [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Con 15, Dragonwrought Heritage
Benefit: You gain a fly speed equal to your Constitution modifier. You can fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to your constitution modifier.
Greater Tail Slash [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Tail Slash, Greater Dragonwrought Heritage
Benefit: You can use Tail Slash as an encounter power. The benefits of this feat replace the benefits of the Tail Slash feat.
Epic Tier
Perfect Dragonwrought Heritage [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Con 17, Greater Dragonwrought Heritage
Benefit: You can now fly indefinately. in addition, your fly speed is now equal to your constitution modifier or your land speed, whichever is higher.
Perfect Tail Slash [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Perfect Dragonwrought Heritage, Greater Tail Slash
Benefit: you can use Tail Slash as an at-will power. The benefits of this feat replace the benefits of the Greater Tail Slash feat.
PC: I fly over the chasm and pelt him with arrows!
DM: Okay... he uses a power that knocks you prone, sending you crashing to the ground. You take 46 damage.
PC: I knock myself unconscious mid-flight, so he only deals... *rolls* 2 damage.
DM: ???
That's a bit of exaggeration, but yeah, I didn't like the idea. But to be honest, that's probably just me; feel free to keep the clause if you really like it.
No... just no.
Take a look at the cost of a flying carpet, and consider how valuable this feat would be.
If there's an always on flight feat it belongs on the epic tier, even then it will probably be crazy good.
Flight at first level, always on, for one feat.
No... just no.
Take a look at the cost of a flying carpet, and consider how valuable this feat would be.
If there's an always on flight feat it belongs on the epic tier, even then it will probably be crazy good.
Dude, not even comparable to flying carpet. We've not been talking about unlimited access to the skies, like the flying carpet gives, it's been all about the limitations on the ability. While it is always available, it's not always on - I don't think anyone has suggested that the char could fly for unlimited distances or for an unlimited amount of time.
I was thinking that 1st was too strong also, but some of the limitations noted herein could make it work, particularly if the DM is diligent about elevation changes. Regardless I don't think it's even close to being comparable to the Flying Carpet.
That being said, winged flight opens up a whole other can of feat worms:
Hover (which is really where the biggest problem is, and where it becomes a whole lot more like the Flying Carpet)
Wingover Attack (like flying Mobility, divide mvmt before and after attk)
Wing Buffet Attack (beating the ground with wings while hovering, causing massive gusts of wind, mvmt based attk)
Flight Conditioning (increase flight speed, maneuverability, or carrying capacity or reduce encumberance/armor penalties while flying)
etcetera, etcetera...
Those actually look pretty good, though I'm not sure why you have the clause about falling damage from unconsciousness in there at all. There was a similar paragraph in the feat I modified (the gist of it basically was, if you fall because you're unconscious, you take next to no damage.) I found that kind of ridiculous. I can't imagine anything not being harmed by falling unconscious (and subsequently to the ground) from a 1000 ft. height. If anything, I would want to discourage PCs from recklessly flying into danger because of their 'safety net' wings.
PC: I fly over the chasm and pelt him with arrows!
DM: Okay... he uses a power that knocks you prone, sending you crashing to the ground. You take 46 damage.
PC: I knock myself unconscious mid-flight, so he only deals... *rolls* 2 damage.
DM: ???
That's a bit of exaggeration, but yeah, I didn't like the idea. But to be honest, that's probably just me; feel free to keep the clause if you really like it.
Agree. Should be you can glide so long as you are conscious.
Ok, i know this is changing things a little bit, but i'm gonna add a few more feats now, since i remembered the tail thing! i'm sure the latter ones in each tier will be completely ripped to shreds, but here goes nothing! :D
Heroic Tier
Dragonwrought Heritage [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Con 13, 1st level only
Benefit: You gain wings and a non-prehensile tail. You can use your wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height, and allowing 4 squares of forward travel for every 1 square of descent. Your glide speed is 6 (clumsy). If you become unconscious while in midair, you fall and take 1d10 points of damage, no matter the distance of the fall.
Tail Slash [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dragonwrought Heritage, 4th level
Benefit: You can use Tail Slash as a daily power.
(not sure how to format powers
Paragon Tier
Greater Dragonwrought Heritage [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Con 15, Dragonwrought Heritage
Benefit: You gain a fly speed equal to your Constitution modifier. You can fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to your constitution modifier.
Greater Tail Slash [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Tail Slash, Greater Dragonwrought Heritage
Benefit: You can use Tail Slash as an encounter power. The benefits of this feat replace the benefits of the Tail Slash feat.
Epic Tier
Perfect Dragonwrought Heritage [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Con 17, Greater Dragonwrought Heritage
Benefit: You can now fly indefinately. in addition, your fly speed is now equal to your constitution modifier or your land speed, whichever is higher.
Perfect Tail Slash [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Perfect Dragonwrought Heritage, Greater Tail Slash
Benefit: you can use Tail Slash as an at-will power. The benefits of this feat replace the benefits of the Greater Tail Slash feat.
I like these, and I think they are mostly balanced, except for 2 notations:
1- Lose the ability to make a fall from any height, as addressed in previous posts.
2- Add 2x armor penalty to mvmt. Flying with armor on should be a lot harder than walking with it on.
Heroic Tier
Dragonwrought Heritage [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Con 13, 1st level only
Benefit: You gain wings and a non-prehensile tail. You can use your wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height, and allowing 4 squares of forward travel for every 1 square of descent. Your glide speed is 6 (clumsy). If you become unconscious while in midair, you fall and take normal falling damage.
Tail Slash [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dragonwrought Heritage, 4th level
Benefit: You can use Tail Slash as a daily power.
(not sure how to format powers )
Tail Slash
As your opponent's blow fails to hit home, you take the opportunity to strike him with an unexpected weapon...
Daily
Immideate reaction
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Trigger: When a melee attack misses the character
Hit: 1d4 + Strength modifier damage.
Paragon Tier
Greater Dragonwrought Heritage [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Con 15, Dragonwrought Heritage
Benefit: You gain a fly speed equal to your Constitution modifier. You can fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to your constitution modifier. You incur double the normal speed penalty from armour while flying.
Greater Tail Slash [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Tail Slash, Greater Dragonwrought Heritage
Benefit: You can use Tail Slash as an encounter power. The benefits of this feat replace the benefits of the Tail Slash feat.
Epic Tier
Perfect Dragonwrought Heritage [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Con 17, Greater Dragonwrought Heritage
Benefit: You can now fly indefinately. in addition, your fly speed is now equal to your constitution modifier or your land speed, whichever is higher.
Perfect Tail Slash [Dragonborn]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Perfect Dragonwrought Heritage, Greater Tail Slash
Benefit: you can use Tail Slash as an at-will power. The benefits of this feat replace the benefits of the Greater Tail Slash feat.
Would you say that they are balanced now?
When they are unconscious their wings unfurl and they take less falling dameage so long as there is enough room to make a circle.
Of course if the wings aren't a reflex action then they wouldn't recieve the fall damage reduction. Think of the fall as an unconscious glide. Perhaps if you made the glide function for a number of turns? Then it wouldn't be as abusable.
Assuming you wanted it to be there at all of course.
i'll post the path someday o show people.
Well, maybe the 'cannot be flanked' is a bit broken, how about this:
Dragon Wings Dragonborn Racial Feature
Your Dragonborn heritage grants you the use of wings, soaring above the enemy and attacking without even facing your enemy.
At-Will ♦ Martial, Movement
Special Action (see below) Personal/Melee Weapon (see below)
Effect: Depending on its use, the wings can be used either as an at-will movement action, or as an unarmed melee attack.
Wing Movement
Heroic Tier
The use of wings grants you to fall from a great height without taking damage. In addition, wing movement can me used as a move action in combat, granting fly as per your movement speed.
Paragon Tier
Your wings are becoming stronger and more developed. In addition to falling from a great height without taking damage, this extends to not taking damage while falling while carrying a light load. Wing movement is now at-will (thus can be used outside of combat) and its speed is equal to your constitution modifier.
Epic Tier
The wings you have are now at their most developed. You can fall from any height carrying a heavy load without taking damage. In addition, you can fly indefinitely, with your speed being equal to the higher of your constitution modifier or your base speed without armour restriction.
Wing Attack
Heroic Tier
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: Up to two adjacent creatures
Attack: Strength or Dexterity (whichever is higher) vs. AC
Hit: 1d4 + chosen ability modifier (Str or Dex) damage
Paragon Tier
Minor Action Close burst 2
Target: Up to two creatures
Attack: Strength or Dexterity (whichever is higher) vs. AC
Hit: 2d4 + chosen ability modifier (Str or Dex) damage
Special: Provided the dragonborn is not surprised, he cannot be flanked
Epic Tier
Standard Action Close burst 3
Target: Up to two creatures
Attack: Strength or Dexterity (whichever is higher) vs. AC
Hit: 3d4 + chosen ability modifier (Str or Dex) damage
Special: Provided the dragonborn is not surprised, he cannot be flanked
I'm not very good at writing powers. I took what I liked from the posts above me, and tried to make it interesting.
Also, Tail Slash has been ripped straight from the dragons power entry anyway, albeit downscaled to accomodate the change in size category from Large to Medium.
I was thinking of a feat that lets you use your wings to gain conceilment, but i think my character is going to be a little starved for feats as it is with all this lot!
I'm not sure i agree with getting wing attacks. In 3rd edition dragons had to be at least large before it gained wing attacks, because a wing doesn't have the same kind of strength as an arm.
Wings require insane amounts of strength, as they are lifting the body by air pressure. Consider your average pullup, now try a pullup with an 3 square meter sail, repeat untill airborne....
The wing is an insanely strong muscle, but it may be overbalancing to give up to 2 attacks at any strength to the Heroic character.
Personally, I think it would be fair for them to give up their breath weapon for an slightly rebalanced version of Archus's idea.
Wings require insane amounts of strength, as they are lifting the body by air pressure. Consider your average pullup, now try a pullup with an 3 square meter sail, repeat untill airborne....
Bird's don't do pull ups to fly. Birds is more like swinging your arm-sails in circular motion to counter balance drag and create lift (by air pressure not their wings). Birds are also light weight for their size, as their bones are hollow.