Feat: Weapon Finesse - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Feat: Weapon Finesse

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
rowl
Jun 17, 2008 6:17:04 I'm hoping this will be included somehow, maybe in the Martial Handbook, but until then, let me know what you think. I wasn't sure to make it weapon or group specific, so I went for the more restrictive. I think the issue of a sigular focus for melee and ranged attack as well as 2 types of defense makes it plenty strong even if exclusive to one weapon instead of the whole group:

Weapon Finesse
Prerequisite: Dex 14, Proficiency with chosen weapon, Weapon Focus: Light Blades
Benefit: Choose a Light Blade. You may make melee attacks with this weapon using your Dexterity instead of your Strength for attack bonus and damage.
#2
kenji508
Jun 17, 2008 11:59:18 Many powers already allow for a weapon finesse kind of thing. Rogues and rangers wouldnt want to spend a feat to let basic atacks use dex when they already have at wills that use dex
#3
Ramien
Jun 17, 2008 16:32:55 I'd considered adding a similar feat, but the rogue's exploits are usually sufficient to cover its purpose in most situations. I'm also expecting to see something in martial powers to cover a more finesse-based fighter type.

I get the feeling, though, that most classes that are going to be weighed towards light blade usage are going to already include finesse-style effects in its exploits.
#4
rowl
Jun 17, 2008 19:52:04 Well, in thinking of a Ranger with Rogue MC feat, you don't have as many dex based melee attacks, so that such a feat would be extremely helpful and provide for greater use of Sneak Attack, but I'll have to check out those Rogue attacks more.
#5
shyune
Jun 18, 2008 2:27:22 Well, I'm thinking the following feat wouldn't be that bad:

Weapon Finesse
Preriquisites: 15 Dex
Benefit: Whenever you would make a STR vs DEF attack while wielding a light blade you may choose to replace your STR modifier with your DEX modifier for the purpose of the attack (damage is still based of STR).

Thoughts or concerns?
#6
rowl
Jun 19, 2008 23:31:34
Well, I'm thinking the following feat wouldn't be that bad:

Weapon Finesse
Preriquisites: 15 Dex
Benefit: Whenever you would make a STR vs DEF attack while wielding a light blade you may choose to replace your STR modifier with your DEX modifier for the purpose of the attack (damage is still based of STR).

Thoughts or concerns?

Less restrictive than mine, so that is nice, but the STR for dmg isn't consistant.

Pretty much every attack uses the same modifier for attack that it does for damage. Additionally, the concept of using a weapon as a finesse instrument as opposed to hacking and slashing, means that dexterity, not strength, would still be your primary source for causing damage due to the location of the strike (more vital organ based than just chopping through flesh, muscle, and bone).

I think that mine needs to be less restrictive since it will be fairly uniquely directed at dual blade Rangers.
#7
azdraugnor
Jun 21, 2008 16:16:04 I could see a feat like this being useful, since rogues are currently stuck using Str-based basic attacks for their OAs.
#8
sirmeatball
Jun 22, 2008 9:33:13 You also have to take into account the effect this has on classes you wouldn't nomrally think of as dexterous. It would allow a Fighter or Warlord or Cleric to change what their focus stat is to Dex from Str. This is especially important to the Light Blade or Spear Fighter who gets Dex bonuses to some attacks. Those bonuses were balanced on the idea that dex would be a secondary, or possibly tertiary stat.
#9
mplindustries
Jun 23, 2008 12:55:47 I think it might be reasonable to create a feat that changes your basic melee attack into a Dexterity vs. AC attack (and I'd suggest maybe not even until paragon tier), but I don't think changing other powers with a feat is advisable. It changes the balance of the game greatly.

A fighter normally has to choose between a good Con score and having all his defenses high. Now, if he can use Dex instead of Str, he suddenly can just dump Strength and go Con, Dex, Wis. Thats a fighter who has made very few, if any sacrifices and is, well just plain better than a normal one. Same goes for Paladins, Clerics, and Warlords.

Rangers are a completely different problem. They need two separate stats for their attacks because you're not supposed to be equally good at melee and ranged without sacrifices. If you could put everything into Dexterity, you'd be able to switch between melee and ranged freely and leave all other rangers in the dust...or I guess, more correctly, all rangers would have to take this feat. And then of course, Rogues could no longer compete. They are slightly weaker simply because they already have the versatility for melee or ranged on one stat built into their powers. If rangers could do the same, they'd just be slightly weaker with no balancing factor.
#10
wrshamilton
Jun 23, 2008 13:11:13 Feats in general are small enough that I don't think they should have entire build-changing effects like swapping out one ability score for another.

Maybe something like "Choose one power you know. Whenever that power would ask you to make a Str vs. DEF attack, make a Dex vs. DEF attack instead."

Not certain that you shouldn't just be multiclassing and taking a power that uses the ability you want, but it might even be best used alongside multiclassing, to make use of an ability you couldn't really otherwise. Don't see it being too unbalancing but I haven't really thought through the implications.

You could have other replacement feats I guess, like a "Fake it Till You Make it" that lets you replace Int attacks with Cha attacks for the purposes of one power.
#11
rowl
Jun 23, 2008 23:37:36
You also have to take into account the effect this has on classes you wouldn't nomrally think of as dexterous. It would allow a Fighter or Warlord or Cleric to change what their focus stat is to Dex from Str. This is especially important to the Light Blade or Spear Fighter who gets Dex bonuses to some attacks. Those bonuses were balanced on the idea that dex would be a secondary, or possibly tertiary stat.

I think it might be reasonable to create a feat that changes your basic melee attack into a Dexterity vs. AC attack (and I'd suggest maybe not even until paragon tier), but I don't think changing other powers with a feat is advisable. It changes the balance of the game greatly.

A fighter normally has to choose between a good Con score and having all his defenses high. Now, if he can use Dex instead of Str, he suddenly can just dump Strength and go Con, Dex, Wis. Thats a fighter who has made very few, if any sacrifices and is, well just plain better than a normal one. Same goes for Paladins, Clerics, and Warlords.

Rangers are a completely different problem. They need two separate stats for their attacks because you're not supposed to be equally good at melee and ranged without sacrifices. If you could put everything into Dexterity, you'd be able to switch between melee and ranged freely and leave all other rangers in the dust...or I guess, more correctly, all rangers would have to take this feat. And then of course, Rogues could no longer compete. They are slightly weaker simply because they already have the versatility for melee or ranged on one stat built into their powers. If rangers could do the same, they'd just be slightly weaker with no balancing factor.

These are good points. Think on them I must.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rowl Jun 17, 2008 6:17:04	I'm hoping this will be included somehow, maybe in the Martial Handbook, but until then, let me know what you think. I wasn't sure to make it weapon or group specific, so I went for the more restrictive. I think the issue of a sigular focus for melee and ranged attack as well as 2 types of defense makes it plenty strong even if exclusive to one weapon instead of the whole group: Weapon Finesse Prerequisite: Dex 14, Proficiency with chosen weapon, Weapon Focus: Light Blades Benefit: Choose a Light Blade. You may make melee attacks with this weapon using your Dexterity instead of your Strength for attack bonus and damage.
#2 kenji508 Jun 17, 2008 11:59:18	Many powers already allow for a weapon finesse kind of thing. Rogues and rangers wouldnt want to spend a feat to let basic atacks use dex when they already have at wills that use dex
#3 Ramien Jun 17, 2008 16:32:55	I'd considered adding a similar feat, but the rogue's exploits are usually sufficient to cover its purpose in most situations. I'm also expecting to see something in martial powers to cover a more finesse-based fighter type. I get the feeling, though, that most classes that are going to be weighed towards light blade usage are going to already include finesse-style effects in its exploits.
#4 rowl Jun 17, 2008 19:52:04	Well, in thinking of a Ranger with Rogue MC feat, you don't have as many dex based melee attacks, so that such a feat would be extremely helpful and provide for greater use of Sneak Attack, but I'll have to check out those Rogue attacks more.
#5 shyune Jun 18, 2008 2:27:22	Well, I'm thinking the following feat wouldn't be that bad: Weapon Finesse Preriquisites: 15 Dex Benefit: Whenever you would make a STR vs DEF attack while wielding a light blade you may choose to replace your STR modifier with your DEX modifier for the purpose of the attack (damage is still based of STR). Thoughts or concerns?
#6 rowl Jun 19, 2008 23:31:34	Well, I'm thinking the following feat wouldn't be that bad: Weapon Finesse Preriquisites: 15 Dex Benefit: Whenever you would make a STR vs DEF attack while wielding a light blade you may choose to replace your STR modifier with your DEX modifier for the purpose of the attack (damage is still based of STR). Thoughts or concerns? Less restrictive than mine, so that is nice, but the STR for dmg isn't consistant. Pretty much every attack uses the same modifier for attack that it does for damage. Additionally, the concept of using a weapon as a finesse instrument as opposed to hacking and slashing, means that dexterity, not strength, would still be your primary source for causing damage due to the location of the strike (more vital organ based than just chopping through flesh, muscle, and bone). I think that mine needs to be less restrictive since it will be fairly uniquely directed at dual blade Rangers.
#7 azdraugnor Jun 21, 2008 16:16:04	I could see a feat like this being useful, since rogues are currently stuck using Str-based basic attacks for their OAs.
#8 sirmeatball Jun 22, 2008 9:33:13	You also have to take into account the effect this has on classes you wouldn't nomrally think of as dexterous. It would allow a Fighter or Warlord or Cleric to change what their focus stat is to Dex from Str. This is especially important to the Light Blade or Spear Fighter who gets Dex bonuses to some attacks. Those bonuses were balanced on the idea that dex would be a secondary, or possibly tertiary stat.
#9 mplindustries Jun 23, 2008 12:55:47	I think it might be reasonable to create a feat that changes your basic melee attack into a Dexterity vs. AC attack (and I'd suggest maybe not even until paragon tier), but I don't think changing other powers with a feat is advisable. It changes the balance of the game greatly. A fighter normally has to choose between a good Con score and having all his defenses high. Now, if he can use Dex instead of Str, he suddenly can just dump Strength and go Con, Dex, Wis. Thats a fighter who has made very few, if any sacrifices and is, well just plain better than a normal one. Same goes for Paladins, Clerics, and Warlords. Rangers are a completely different problem. They need two separate stats for their attacks because you're not supposed to be equally good at melee and ranged without sacrifices. If you could put everything into Dexterity, you'd be able to switch between melee and ranged freely and leave all other rangers in the dust...or I guess, more correctly, all rangers would have to take this feat. And then of course, Rogues could no longer compete. They are slightly weaker simply because they already have the versatility for melee or ranged on one stat built into their powers. If rangers could do the same, they'd just be slightly weaker with no balancing factor.
#10 wrshamilton Jun 23, 2008 13:11:13	Feats in general are small enough that I don't think they should have entire build-changing effects like swapping out one ability score for another. Maybe something like "Choose one power you know. Whenever that power would ask you to make a Str vs. DEF attack, make a Dex vs. DEF attack instead." Not certain that you shouldn't just be multiclassing and taking a power that uses the ability you want, but it might even be best used alongside multiclassing, to make use of an ability you couldn't really otherwise. Don't see it being too unbalancing but I haven't really thought through the implications. You could have other replacement feats I guess, like a "Fake it Till You Make it" that lets you replace Int attacks with Cha attacks for the purposes of one power.
#11 rowl Jun 23, 2008 23:37:36	You also have to take into account the effect this has on classes you wouldn't nomrally think of as dexterous. It would allow a Fighter or Warlord or Cleric to change what their focus stat is to Dex from Str. This is especially important to the Light Blade or Spear Fighter who gets Dex bonuses to some attacks. Those bonuses were balanced on the idea that dex would be a secondary, or possibly tertiary stat. I think it might be reasonable to create a feat that changes your basic melee attack into a Dexterity vs. AC attack (and I'd suggest maybe not even until paragon tier), but I don't think changing other powers with a feat is advisable. It changes the balance of the game greatly. A fighter normally has to choose between a good Con score and having all his defenses high. Now, if he can use Dex instead of Str, he suddenly can just dump Strength and go Con, Dex, Wis. Thats a fighter who has made very few, if any sacrifices and is, well just plain better than a normal one. Same goes for Paladins, Clerics, and Warlords. Rangers are a completely different problem. They need two separate stats for their attacks because you're not supposed to be equally good at melee and ranged without sacrifices. If you could put everything into Dexterity, you'd be able to switch between melee and ranged freely and leave all other rangers in the dust...or I guess, more correctly, all rangers would have to take this feat. And then of course, Rogues could no longer compete. They are slightly weaker simply because they already have the versatility for melee or ranged on one stat built into their powers. If rangers could do the same, they'd just be slightly weaker with no balancing factor. These are good points. Think on them I must.