I've played RPGs for a long time, but I'm rather new to 4e. I'm working on a custom race for a specific campaign, and I'm can't figure out if my idea can be balanced or not..
It's a magical race, and the idea is basically to have the race gain a number of encounter and/or daily powers as they gain levels in addition to the ones provided by their class. My first thought was to gain "any one arcane encounter power (at level - n) as a daily power".
Obviously gaining more power in addition to to class abilities is based on feats. But how much is a feat worth compared to gaining an extra power? Will it be horribly unbalanced to have a character with an extra half-dozen (weak*) daily powers extra at level 30?
* Say 2 encounter powers from each tier, 2 being utilities.
it would be better if they got more flexibility their racial encounter power. Half elf Dilettante is the closest thing in game to what you're describing.
At start the race is pretty average, maybe marginally weaker. Then they'll get two racial feats at each tier that allows them to pick additional powers, sort of like multiclassing:
"Source of Magic"
Racial feat, Heroic tier, minimum level 4
Chose one level 1 arcane encounter power from any class, you can use this power as a daily power.
This would be the first feat. Having taken that there would be a couple more like it probably ending with an Epic feat at level 26 or so (giving a level 23 power).
Not having played so much it's hard to judge if the additional powers provides a larger benefit than a normal feat would. How good is it to be able to throw a double-damage (encounter instead of at-will) attack once per day compared to a 1-point damage or to hit bonus?
I'm primarily concerned about class balance, the arcane classes run almost exclusively on Charisma and Intelligence, this makes it hard for members of this race to be fighters, wardens, and such.
Good point. An additional feat that changes the stat used for powers (like the Bard feat) could fix that.
not necessarily 'unbalanced' but certainly unwieldy. It would lead to too many powers on the character sheet.
Well, that's more of a problem for the player than game balance. Having played HERO system I find nothing strange with lists of 50+ powers on character sheets...
sort of like multiclassing
the more like multi classing power swapping the better. 'instead of' rather than 'in addition too'
Sounds a bit like the Bard class. Have you checked them out?
I actually have a Bard character. However this is a racial concept, not a class. So the comparision doesn't really work.
sort of like multiclassing
the more like multi classing power swapping the better. 'instead of' rather than 'in addition too'
But that wasn't what I was going for. If it's just like multiclassing, why bother with it? What I don't know is if it's possible to balance a way to gain extra powers by way of feats (powers above the level of at-will, that is).
Sounds a bit like the Bard class. Have you checked them out?
I actually have a Bard character. However this is a racial concept, not a class. So the comparision doesn't really work.
Fair enough. Balancing will be pretty difficult though - seems to me it would be very easy for it to become overpowered.
Fair enough. Balancing will be pretty difficult though - seems to me it would be very easy for it to become overpowered.
True. The whole concept might be unworkable - but OTOH feats should provide some sort of benefit, so it should be possible to trade feats for powers and keep it balanced. But what would the "exchange rate" be?
sort of like multiclassing
the more like multi classing power swapping the better. 'instead of' rather than 'in addition too'
But that wasn't what I was going for. If it's just like multiclassing, why bother with it? What I don't know is if it's possible to balance a way to gain extra powers by way of feats (powers above the level of at-will, that is).
multiclassing only gives you access to ONE other class. Your racial feats could give access to ALL arcane classes, and make them work for the character's stats.
Not having played so much it's hard to judge if the additional powers provides a larger benefit than a normal feat would. How good is it to be able to throw a double-damage (encounter instead of at-will) attack once per day compared to a 1-point damage or to hit bonus?
The 1 point of damage or hit bonus is considered to be amongst the better feats in the game because they are always on. If you want to compare how good your racial feats are compared to other feats (particularly racial feats), just look at them and see how it stacks against them. If you look at most feats, they give you some bonus under certain conditions. Very few feats grant you additional powers. There are also a number of power swap feats. They allow you to gain some powers instead of your normal powers. This indicates to me that granting new powers may be very powerful compared to other feats.
The other thing you need to consider is that it is difficult to compare at-wills with encounters and dailies. Most characters have roughly an equal number of powers of each type of use. If you start adding more of one type, it may make the character too overpowered. If you replace powers, then it may be more balanced.
The ultimate test is to play test. If you find that every character of this race takes these feats instead of anything else, these feats may be overpowered. Feats should be optional and not required. Any time there are feats (or even powers) where players feel they must take for almost every character, players complain that they are overpowered. Ideally, your race should have these feats available, but they should not be always taken over anything else.
not necessarily 'unbalanced' but certainly unwieldy. It would lead to too many powers on the character sheet.
Well, that's more of a problem for the player than game balance. Having played HERO system I find nothing strange with lists of 50+ powers on character sheets...
Well, 4E is vastly different from the HERO system. The idea of 4E is to have a system that is more streamlined than previous editions or HERO. If you are used to 50+ powers, you may not find adding extra powers to be unwieldy. I find that having more powers is not necessarily an improvement. As long as players have a good number of options, they do not need a lot more. If you are creating house rules for players it is a good idea to not make them that creates problems and put the onus on the players to deal with them. If your players are not used to HERO with the great many abilities a character may have, making house rules that are unwieldy for your playes is not a good idea. However, if your players are used to HERO, then adding more abilities may not be as big of an issue.
But that wasn't what I was going for. If it's just like multiclassing, why bother with it? What I don't know is if it's possible to balance a way to gain extra powers by way of feats (powers above the level of at-will, that is).
multiclassing only gives you access to ONE other class. Your racial feats could give access to ALL arcane classes, and make them work for the character's stats.
Well, yes... That was sort of the start for this thread...? My questions where 1) is it possible to balance at all and 2) how to balance it if possible?
Btw, Bards can multiclass to several different classes and base all the powers on the same stat. So having a character with a wide varity of powers isn't exactly now, the difference is basing it on a race and increasing the number of powers.
Not having played so much it's hard to judge if the additional powers provides a larger benefit than a normal feat would. How good is it to be able to throw a double-damage (encounter instead of at-will) attack once per day compared to a 1-point damage or to hit bonus?
The 1 point of damage or hit bonus is considered to be amongst the better feats in the game because they are always on. If you want to compare how good your racial feats are compared to other feats (particularly racial feats), just look at them and see how it stacks against them. If you look at most feats, they give you some bonus under certain conditions. Very few feats grant you additional powers. There are also a number of power swap feats. They allow you to gain some powers instead of your normal powers. This indicates to me that granting new powers may be very powerful compared to other feats.
Good points. I figured pretty much the same thing, but I haven't played enough to get a good idea of how powerful adding powers would be.
+1 damage feats is the closest comparision I could think of. Most encounter powers simply cause more damage than similar at-will powers (usually about x2 to x3 from what I can see). A feat that allows use of an additional encounter power will thus essentially add a bit of damage.
But a single feat for an encounter power is obviously to much, so I'm trying to figure out how much the useability of the power can be reduced and/or the feat cost of the power can be increased so that it's balanced.
The other thing you need to consider is that it is difficult to compare at-wills with encounters and dailies. Most characters have roughly an equal number of powers of each type of use. If you start adding more of one type, it may make the character too overpowered. If you replace powers, then it may be more balanced.
Well, it should only be overpowered if the additional power adds a lot. F.ex. the Ranger power "Two-fanged strike" cause about 10 extra damage compared to "Twin strike". 10 damage over one encounter isn't really all that much...
The ultimate test is to play test. If you find that every character of this race takes these feats instead of anything else, these feats may be overpowered. Feats should be optional and not required. Any time there are feats (or even powers) where players feel they must take for almost every character, players complain that they are overpowered. Ideally, your race should have these feats available, but they should not be always taken over anything else.
Kind of hard to get decent playtests with custom races - how do you convince someone else to play it? I suppose just writing up a "beta version" of the race + feats and ask others how they'd use it would be one way.
Well, that's more of a problem for the player than game balance. Having played HERO system I find nothing strange with lists of 50+ powers on character sheets...
Well, 4E is vastly different from the HERO system. The idea of 4E is to have a system that is more streamlined than previous editions or HERO. If you are used to 50+ powers, you may not find adding extra powers to be unwieldy. I find that having more powers is not necessarily an improvement. As long as players have a good number of options, they do not need a lot more. If you are creating house rules for players it is a good idea to not make them that creates problems and put the onus on the players to deal with them. If your players are not used to HERO with the great many abilities a character may have, making house rules that are unwieldy for your playes is not a good idea. However, if your players are used to HERO, then adding more abilities may not be as big of an issue.
All the players in our group has played HERO, so we're all used to it - and I wouldn't force anyone to use the race anyway, so if someone thinks extra powers are to much to handle they're free to play something else! That is of course one reason I want to get it resonably balanced.
Btw... It might just be that I've played HERO more, but I don't find 4e particularly streamlined. Heck, I find 3.5 easier, at least up to level 10 or so!
[a]I'm rather new to 4e.
[b]I'm working on a custom race for a specific campaign, and I'm can't figure out if my idea can be balanced or not... It's a magical race...
[c]...the idea is basically to have the race gain a number of encounter and/or daily powers as they gain levels in addition to the ones provided by their class.
At the risk of sounding rude or condescending, I think you're going about this whole idea very badly, and I think you should figure out a little bit more about how the system works before trying to make a homebrew that's so complex and so defies typical balance and convention. As far as homebrews go, I always suggest starting with something simple and more conventional. Then, after you get the hang of it, you'll have the insights you need to try the crazy stuff.
First, if I'm going to be able to help, I have to ask: What is this race? All I know about it from reading this thread is that it's magical. Well, that's not a good enough excuse to do what you want to do. I mean, Dragonborn are a magical race, Eladrin are a magical race, Tiefling are a magical race, Drow are a magical race, Genasi are a magical race, Deva are a magical race, Gnomes are a magical race, Warforged are a magical race... Heck, at least half of the races in this game are magical in some way. What makes you think that your race's concept is so special that it warrants this completely new system? That wasn't meant to be a condescending question, even though it probably reads like it; I'm actually curious what's so special about your race that warrants all of this.
Now, knowing absolutely nothing about your race, you'll have to forgive me if my suggestion isn't quite what you have in mind, but here's what I might do...
Consider giving them a racial feature that grants them an arcane multiclass feat as a bonus feat. For good measure, I might also include Student of the Plague as a possible options. You may multiclass into the class of whatever multiclass feat you select without having it count against your normal number of classes that you can multiclass into.
And then I would just leave it at that.
[a]I'm rather new to 4e.
[b]I'm working on a custom race for a specific campaign, and I'm can't figure out if my idea can be balanced or not... It's a magical race...
[c]...the idea is basically to have the race gain a number of encounter and/or daily powers as they gain levels in addition to the ones provided by their class.
At the risk of sounding rude or condescending, I think you're going about this whole idea very badly, and I think you should figure out a little bit more about how the system works before trying to make a homebrew that's so complex and so defies typical balance and convention. As far as homebrews go, I always suggest starting with something simple and more conventional. Then, after you get the hang of it, you'll have the insights you need to try the crazy stuff.
Oh, I've got a fair idea about how the system works - I've been playing RPGs for 25 years so I have some experience! What I'm not sure if is exactly how different abilities is balanced against each other, which is something that's almost impossible to figure out by yourself. Even if every player in my group agrees that something is well balanced some other group with a different playing style might find it unbalanced!
Case in point - in the first campaign I made a character I made a Ranger (which is supposed to be one of the classes with the highest DPR). Guess which character contributes the least in our fights?
First, if I'm going to be able to help, I have to ask: What is this race? All I know about it from reading this thread is that it's magical. Well, that's not a good enough excuse to do what you want to do. I mean, Dragonborn are a magical race, Eladrin are a magical race, Tiefling are a magical race, Drow are a magical race, Genasi are a magical race, Deva are a magical race, Gnomes are a magical race, Warforged are a magical race... Heck, at least half of the races in this game are magical in some way. What makes you think that your race's concept is so special that it warrants this completely new system? That wasn't meant to be a condescending question, even though it probably reads like it; I'm actually curious what's so special about your race that warrants all of this.
Yeah, that's true. Heck, everything in D&D appears to be magic-based!
It's a conversion from another game. Sort of a Kitsune, but technically a human possessed by a fox spirit rather than a shape-changing fox. The "schtick" is that it is magic, not just "magical" but part "magical elemental". So it is supposed to be able to cast magic as an innate ability unrelated to actual class. And I want to ability to increase as it goes up in level.
Now, knowing absolutely nothing about your race, you'll have to forgive me if my suggestion isn't quite what you have in mind, but here's what I might do...
Consider giving them a racial feature that grants them an arcane multiclass feat as a bonus feat. For good measure, I might also include Student of the Plague as a possible options. You may multiclass into the class of whatever multiclass feat you select without having it count against your normal number of classes that you can multiclass into.
And then I would just leave it at that.
Student of the Plague? Where's that from? I don't exactly have access to every book...
As for multiclassing, as I said earlier it wouldn't really fit what I want. But if that's the only balanced way I'll take another look at it.
I find it a little irritating that no-one's bothered to address my question about how powers and feats relate to each other, thought... I'd thought that someone would at least say something about the central point to my first post!
It's a conversion from another game. Sort of a Kitsune, but technically a human possessed by a fox spirit rather than a shape-changing fox. The "schtick" is that it is magic, not just "magical" but part "magical elemental". So it is supposed to be able to cast magic as an innate ability unrelated to actual class. And I want to ability to increase as it goes up in level.
I don't understand. First it's a human, just one posessed by a magical spirit, and then it is magic? I'm not following. I mean, "part magical elemental" is dealt with perfectly conventionally through the Genasi, and I might even suggest you take a look at the Kalashtar, which is also a human inhabited by another spirit. Furthermore, there are various races who have magical abilities as an innate part of themselves, completely unrelated to class: Dragonborn, Eladrin, Drow, Genasi, and Gnome, at least. As for the ability becoming more powerful with level, that's what racial feats that improve upon racial feature such as racial powers are for. Heck, that's also what racial Paragon Paths are for.
Student of the Plague? Where's that from? I don't exactly have access to every book...
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. It's a Multi-Class feat that just gives you access to generic arcane spells not from any specific arcane class. With a bit of reflavoring, it could actually fit your concept quite nicely.
As for multiclassing, as I said earlier it wouldn't really fit what I want.
I'm not really sure why not. After all, the feats you're proposing to obtain powers are just doing exactly that, aren't they? Getting you powers from another class? It's basically multi-classing, just flavored a bit differently.
Basically, if you want to obtain spells from existing classes, I don't see why easier multi-classing doesn't fit the bill, and if you want them to have powers unique from any arcane class, then I don't see why you don't just have your own racial power (or a selection thereof) to improve with feats or maybe do something with reflavoring Student of the Plague.
I find it a little irritating that no-one's bothered to address my question about how powers and feats relate to each other, thought... I'd thought that someone would at least say something about the central point to my first post!
The reason is that it's not an easy answer. I can't actually think of any powers that grant additional powers except for a couple of multi-classing feats and maybe Arcane Familiar (Arcane Power). The rest just allow you to swap some of your powers for other powers temporarily (Channel Divinity feats), or allow you to swap some of your powers for other powers completely (multi-class feats).
It's a conversion from another game. Sort of a Kitsune, but technically a human possessed by a fox spirit rather than a shape-changing fox. The "schtick" is that it is magic, not just "magical" but part "magical elemental". So it is supposed to be able to cast magic as an innate ability unrelated to actual class. And I want to ability to increase as it goes up in level.
Love the idea, and would like to see how it would look fully integrated into 4e. Having said that, from your racial description, it looks like you have only 2 real options:
1. Forget about balance for this race - the DM can do as he sees fit, and if your players enjoy the concept, let it keep its high-powered essence.
2. Keep the original concept as a "monster" (not available for PC) and use a toned-down version for the PC. There area few races already in 4e where this has been done. For example: Shifters as PCs instead of Lycanthropes and Bullywugs (mm2) instead of Slaadi.
I find it a little irritating that no-one's bothered to address my question about how powers and feats relate to each other, thought... I'd thought that someone would at least say something about the central point to my first post!
Apologies. I don't consider myself enough of a Master of Balance to be able to do that. I was looking forward to reading and learning from the expert opinions of some geekier than myself.
I'm not really sure why not. After all, the feats you're proposing to obtain powers are just doing exactly that, aren't they? Getting you powers from another class? It's basically multi-classing, just flavored a bit differently.
Because replacing class powers with powers from another class was not the idea. Getting a set of powers independent of the class was.
The reason is that it's not an easy answer. I can't actually think of any powers that grant additional powers except for a couple of multi-classing feats and maybe Arcane Familiar (Arcane Power). The rest just allow you to swap some of your powers for other powers temporarily (Channel Divinity feats), or allow you to swap some of your powers for other powers completely (multi-class feats).
Yes. I was hoping some people with more experience than me with 4e would offer up some estimates on how powerful getting powers for feats would be. "It hasn't been done" isn't very useful information.
Apologies. I don't consider myself enough of a Master of Balance to be able to do that. I was looking forward to reading and learning from the expert opinions of some geekier than myself.
Oh, that's quite all right. I doubt such a person exists anyway. But anyone who's played for a while should be able to tell how much he'd pay (in feats) for a specific feature (extra power in this case). I.e.:
Benefit: Your character can use one (extra) encounter power as a daily power.
Question: How many feats would you pay for this bonus?
Hmm, this is hard to balance since 4e wanted to distantiate from characters that are weak during the first half of the campaign and strong during the last.
So, here's how I'd run it:
Step 1: Your race gets an encounter power that grants him the use of a level 1 Arcane power.
Step 2: Your race also gets a Racial Feat that allows him to pick another power, and that power can be used instead of the other one, during each encouner.
Step 3: At paragon, you get a Paragon version, and if you take that, you can pick a Daily power. It can be used once per day, and also instead of your first encounter power. The encounter power is still available during the next encounter, but the Daily is lost until your next extended rest.
That way, you can use Feats to grab various powers to use, both daily and encounter, but you cannot spam all of them in one combat and then be out of racial power for the rest of the day (which is something 4e tends to avoid) but you still have the versatility you seem to be wanting to go for.
Also, keep in mind this race needs to be able to use the proper Implements to use those powers, so you are kinda pigeonholing them probably.
I won't enter into a discussion about what the race "should" or "shouldn't" have. The race concept itself isn't the topic, that's why I didn't specify it.
Then it's going to be exceedingly difficult to help you, because we don't know what your ultimate goal is and how it may be best and most easily achieved.
Because replacing class powers with powers from another class was not the idea. Getting a set of powers independent of the class was.
I'm confused. How is obtaining a power from a class that is not your own anything other than obtaining powers completely independant of your class?
"It hasn't been done" isn't very useful information.
It's actually more useful than you think. What it means is that there's no existing reliable standard to compate it to and balance it against, and that means that you're not going to get a reliable answer without playtesting it yourself.
Benefit: Your character can use one (extra) encounter power as a daily power.
Question: How many feats would you pay for this bonus?
That all depends on the level of the power in relation to my own level. If it's a power of my own level, then I'd probably take at least three feats, but if it's a power of my level -10, then it's probably only barely worth one feat to me, if that. But again, without any reasonable comparison points, my answer isn't all that reliable, and that was just assuming an attack power. If it were a utility power, it might be different. After all, I'd still consider taking something like Initiate of the Faith at epic levels...
Oh, that's quite all right. I doubt such a person exists anyway. But anyone who's played for a while should be able to tell how much he'd pay (in feats) for a specific feature (extra power in this case). I.e.:
Benefit: Your character can use one (extra) encounter power as a daily power.
Question: How many feats would you pay for this bonus?
Giving an encounter power as a daily is worth about half an extra daily power. Encounter powers probably deal a little more than half the damage of a daily of roughly the same tier, but have no effect on a miss. It is still a little difficult to measure because other than level 1, encounter powers and daily powers are granted at different levels.
As for how many feats I would pay, I would pay more than one. Other than multiclass feats, any feat that grants additional powers are generall power swap feats. Also, these additional powers tend to be more like utility powers than attack powers. The ability to gain an additional attack power of encounter calibre is very good. Even if it is once a day, it's like half a daily power. If it costs only one feat, I probably would take it particularly at level 1 where you have a very limited amount of enounters and dailies.
The multiclass feats that grant an at-will as an encounter (like Arcane Initiate) is not very overpowered because at-wills are generally not really powerful. Encounter calibre attack powers generally are good and will be used.
RE:Pluisjen
If the way I want to do it isn't workable I'll take a close look at your idea. It does capture part of what I'm after at least.
RE:Crimson_Concerto
Then it's going to be exceedingly difficult to help you, because we don't know what your ultimate goal is and how it may be best and most easily achieved.
Since my goal is simply to get a decent estimate of how many feats it's worth to get additional powers, I can't find any problem.
I'm confused. How is obtaining a power from a class that is not your own anything other than obtaining powers completely independant of your class?
Because that means class powers disappear, and I don't want the extra powers to be as powerful as the class powers (that's why I set out to use encounter powers as dailies).
That all depends on the level of the power in relation to my own level. If it's a power of my own level, then I'd probably take at least three feats, but if it's a power of my level -10, then it's probably only barely worth one feat to me, if that. But again, without any reasonable comparison points, my answer isn't all that reliable, and that was just assuming an attack power. If it were a utility power, it might be different. After all, I'd still consider taking something like Initiate of the Faith at epic levels...
Thank you, that was useful info! I guess you wouldn't pay as much for an utility, right? It does sound a little much to offer 3 feats for getting, say an extra daily use of a level 3 encounter power at character level 4!
RE:Stuntman
The ability to gain an additional attack power of encounter calibre is very good. Even if it is once a day, it's like half a daily power. If it costs only one feat, I probably would take it particularly at level 1 where you have a very limited amount of enounters and dailies.
Would you pay two feats to get such a power (at your character level)? That is of course only applicable to humans at level 1. How about an utility power? Getting a daily use of a level 2 utility (at level 2), is that worth a feat?
Would you pay two feats to get such a power (at your character level)? That is of course only applicable to humans at level 1. How about an utility power? Getting a daily use of a level 2 utility (at level 2), is that worth a feat?
I probably won't spend two feats for the power. I think that with most classes, I would be looking for at least one feat at level 1 to use other than to get this power. If it cost only one feat, I likely would spend it, especially as a human.
As for a utility power, it is worth a feat as some daily utility powers are pretty good as well. If you mean gaining only an encounter utility power that I can use daily, it probably wont worth a feat for me. Utility powers are not that strong to me. I find that I making a encounter utility power even worse by making it a daily would not make it worth spending a feat on. If I could spend a feat to swap my level 2 utility power with another power, it would definitely be worth a feat for me.
#1, Heroic tier: Gain a heroic tier arcane encounter utility at your level-2 (or lower) as a daily power.
#2, Heroic tier: Gain a heroic tier arcane encounter exploit at your level-5 (or lower) as a daily power.
#3, Paragon tier: Gain a Paragon tier arcane encounter utility at your level-2 (or lower) as a daily power
#4, Paragon tier: Gain a Paragon tier arcane encounter exploit at your level-5 (or lower) as a daily power.
#5, Epic tier: Gain a Epic tier arcane encounter utility at your level-2 (or lower) as a daily power
#6, Epic tier: Gain a Epic tier arcane encounter exploit at your level-5 (or lower) as a daily power.
#7, Heroic tier: Chose one stat, all powers gained through feats #1-#6 are now based on that stat. Also, they all now use the same implement as your class (if your class doesn't use implements, chose one from any arcane class).
So at level 6 you can take a level 1 encounter power (as a daily) for one feat, but to do that you first have to spend a feat to gain a level 2 utility (again as a daily).
That looks resonable to me at, at least. Close to level 30 you'll have 6 extra daily powers, but half of those will be utilities and two of them will still be heroic tier!
How does this look? Feat #1-#6 has to be taken in order (all have the previous one as prerequisite), #7 is a one-off.
#1, Heroic tier: Gain a heroic tier arcane encounter utility at your level-2 (or lower) as a daily power.
#2, Heroic tier: Gain a heroic tier arcane encounter exploit at your level-5 (or lower) as a daily power.
#3, Paragon tier: Gain a Paragon tier arcane encounter utility at your level-2 (or lower) as a daily power
#4, Paragon tier: Gain a Paragon tier arcane encounter exploit at your level-5 (or lower) as a daily power.
#5, Epic tier: Gain a Epic tier arcane encounter utility at your level-2 (or lower) as a daily power
#6, Epic tier: Gain a Epic tier arcane encounter exploit at your level-5 (or lower) as a daily power.
#7, Heroic tier: Chose one stat, all powers gained through feats #1-#6 are now based on that stat. Also, they all now use the same implement as your class (if your class doesn't use implements, chose one from any arcane class).
So at level 6 you can take a level 1 encounter power (as a daily) for one feat, but to do that you first have to spend a feat to gain a level 2 utility (again as a daily).
That looks resonable to me at, at least. Close to level 30 you'll have 6 extra daily powers, but half of those will be utilities and two of them will still be heroic tier!
Your use of the word "exploit" is incorrect because in 4E, an exploit is a martial power like a spell is an arcane power. I believe that whn you say, "arcane encounter exploit", you mean "arcane encounter attack power."
Anyway, I see these options to be a toned down version of multiclassing into an arcane class. I think that the encounter attack power is worth spending a feat on. Also, most likely, I would keep retraining the feat to get higher and higher powers instead of keeping the lower level feats. I don't see very many people keeping their heroic tier feat that grants an encounter attack power at higher levels. It is probably best to word it similar to Novice power where at every level you can simply pick a different power. There is likely little need to pick more than one of the feats that grant an additional encounter attack power.
The feat that allows you to take a utility power seems weak to me. First of all, you cannot choose to take a daily or at-will utility power. Then you only get to use an encounter utility power as a daily. I really think that the utility should be a power swap feat that you can use with any kind (at-will, encounter or daily) of utility power instead.
I like the idea of allowing only powers of a lower level. It makes these feats weaker than the power swap feats, so you don't completely get the same or similar powers as multiclassing.
How does this look? Feat #1-#6 has to be taken in order (all have the previous one as prerequisite), #7 is a one-off.
#1, Heroic tier: Gain a heroic tier arcane encounter utility at your level-2 (or lower) as a daily power.
#2, Heroic tier: Gain a heroic tier arcane encounter exploit at your level-5 (or lower) as a daily power.
#3, Paragon tier: Gain a Paragon tier arcane encounter utility at your level-2 (or lower) as a daily power
#4, Paragon tier: Gain a Paragon tier arcane encounter exploit at your level-5 (or lower) as a daily power.
#5, Epic tier: Gain a Epic tier arcane encounter utility at your level-2 (or lower) as a daily power
#6, Epic tier: Gain a Epic tier arcane encounter exploit at your level-5 (or lower) as a daily power.
#7, Heroic tier: Chose one stat, all powers gained through feats #1-#6 are now based on that stat. Also, they all now use the same implement as your class (if your class doesn't use implements, chose one from any arcane class).
So at level 6 you can take a level 1 encounter power (as a daily) for one feat, but to do that you first have to spend a feat to gain a level 2 utility (again as a daily).
That looks resonable to me at, at least. Close to level 30 you'll have 6 extra daily powers, but half of those will be utilities and two of them will still be heroic tier!
Your use of the word "exploit" is incorrect because in 4E, an exploit is a martial power like a spell is an arcane power. I believe that when you say, "arcane encounter exploit", you mean "arcane encounter attack power."
D'oh! Right, I must have been looking at one of the martial classes when I wrote and just didn't think about it. Since it's (in this case) "spells only" it should even be "non-weapon arcane encounter attack power.".
Anyway, I see these options to be a toned down version of multiclassing into an arcane class. I think that the encounter attack power is worth spending a feat on. Also, most likely, I would keep retraining the feat to get higher and higher powers instead of keeping the lower level feats. I don't see very many people keeping their heroic tier feat that grants an encounter attack power at higher levels. It is probably best to word it similar to Novice power where at every level you can simply pick a different power. There is likely little need to pick more than one of the feats that grant an additional encounter attack power.
I'm not sure what you're getting at... Since all the "power gain" feats have the the previous one as a prerequisite there's no way to retrain them unless you want to lose all the feats. The only retraining possible is to go from (f.ex.) a 1st-level power (picked with feat #2 at level 6) up to a level 3 and then level 7 power (at character level 8 and 12 respectively). At that point you can't get a better power, but if you want to pick the paragon-level feats you still need to keep the heroic-level feats as they are prerequisites.
The feat that allows you to take a utility power seems weak to me. First of all, you cannot choose to take a daily or at-will utility power. Then you only get to use an encounter utility power as a daily. I really think that the utility should be a power swap feat that you can use with any kind (at-will, encounter or daily) of utility power instead.
I figured I'd use those feats to balance out the more powerful feats that gives attack powers. A level 1 encounter power, even as a daily and at level 6, might be worth more than one feat - but then you first have to use a feat to get a rather weak utility to go along with it!
Thought at-will utilities could be taken as encounter powers, I suppose (like some of the multiclass feats).
I like the idea of allowing only powers of a lower level. It makes these feats weaker than the power swap feats, so you don't completely get the same or similar powers as multiclassing.
Yeah, that tip was a good idea. Since my goal isn't so much "Power!" as "Hey, I've got this extra special power that could be useful now!" having powers that provide a lot of "punch" isn't so important. Honestly I would probably have gone with at-will powers as encounter powers (like multiclass feats) if it wasn't for the fact that encounter powers provide a lot more interesting options!
One other thing is also that in playing I've found daily powers a lot more interesting that encounter (or at-will) powers. Encounter powers tends to be best used right away in any encounter, leaving you with just at-will powers for most of the fight (boring!). With dailies I've found that you usually hold them until late in the fight unless it's very obvious you'll need them. That plain makes encounters more interesting!
I'm not sure what you're getting at... Since all the "power gain" feats have the the previous one as a prerequisite there's no way to retrain them unless you want to lose all the feats. The only retraining possible is to go from (f.ex.) a 1st-level power (picked with feat #2 at level 6) up to a level 3 and then level 7 power (at character level 8 and 12 respectively). At that point you can't get a better power, but if you want to pick the paragon-level feats you still need to keep the heroic-level feats as they are prerequisites.
My bad. I missed the part about prerequisites. In that case, I actually don't like these feats if each one requires the previous one as a prerequisite. If you notice in 4E, there are very few feats or any character options that have a great many prerequisites. (Paragon Multiclassing requires the most and most people hate PMC for that reason.) If you require the first 5 feats before taking the 6th one, likely no one would want to do that and it would be better off just multiclassing instead.
If you notice, as you level up into paragon levels and above, you start to replace lower level encounter and daily attack powers with higher ones. At level 13, you replace an encounter attack power. At level 15, you replace a daily attack power. The reason for this is that the lower level powers start to not be that useful. Keeping track of near useless powers through mid-paragon to epic tiers is something the developers felt was not worth doing. If you notice, the multiclass power swap feats allow you to keep upgrading as well.
I figured I'd use those feats to balance out the more powerful feats that gives attack powers. A level 1 encounter power, even as a daily and at level 6, might be worth more than one feat - but then you first have to use a feat to get a rather weak utility to go along with it!
Many players complained about feat trees in 3E where you have to take useless options in order to qualify for something you want later. In 4E, they tried to avoid forcing players to choose something useless in order to qualify for something good. The heavy prerequisites and log feat tree of your power feats will discourage most players from taking any more than the first or second feat.
I understand you want to use a feat prerequisites as a cost to balance out the power of the feature. A prereq of 6 feats to get the seventh (even the cost for the 3rd or 4th feat) is just way to high a cost considering that the attack power feats will no longer be that useful at higher levels. The level limit seems to be enough of a limitation as is.
One other thing is also that in playing I've found daily powers a lot more interesting that encounter (or at-will) powers. Encounter powers tends to be best used right away in any encounter, leaving you with just at-will powers for most of the fight (boring!). With dailies I've found that you usually hold them until late in the fight unless it's very obvious you'll need them. That plain makes encounters more interesting!
I understand your issue with long encounters. I don't know of this is necessarily a solution to make encounters more interesting.
Anyway, I decided to err on the side of safety - that's why I made the feats rather limited in power. It seems like most players would pay a fair amount for a couple of extra powers, so I put the cost at what I judged as the upper end. Given that it's a custom race it's easy enough to modify things later if it turns out to be underpowered, just improving the selection of powers at higher levels should do that.
I understand your issue with long encounters. I don't know of this is necessarily a solution to make encounters more interesting.
In this case it isn't so much about making encounters more interesting in general, more about making making this race more interesting to play (IMHO, of course). I've seen a couple of other threads about how to make encounters more intersting and have discussed some house rules with the people I play with. I doubt we'll be making any general changes, though.
Since it's a set of racial feats I figure anyone who doesn't like it will simply not play that race, so people disliking it shouldn't really be a problem... I mean, unless a player does something so terribly stupid it directly hurts the party, no-one but the player that choses the race would even need to remember which powers he chose!
I think that player who want to play this race may not necessarily want to take these feats. Ideally feats should be optional and useful, but not necessarily required. A player playing a race would not necessarily choose racial feats, and especially not necessarily choose so many of them. If I like this race, it seems like I'm forced to keep useless feats around at higher levels if I want some better feats or I would simply not take any feats at all or retrain them at higher levels. That's the feeling I'm getting. What reason would I have to take this race if I choose not to take any racial feats or only one?
Anyway, I decided to err on the side of safety - that's why I made the feats rather limited in power. It seems like most players would pay a fair amount for a couple of extra powers, so I put the cost at what I judged as the upper end. Given that it's a custom race it's easy enough to modify things later if it turns out to be underpowered, just improving the selection of powers at higher levels should do that.
The limitations of gaining a power of your level-5 seems to limit the power enough. That's half a tier. At least that serves to limit the power of the feat. The multiclass power swap feats have no level limitation at all.
The limitations of gaining a power of your level-5 seems to limit the power enough. That's half a tier. At least that serves to limit the power of the feat. The multiclass power swap feats have no level limitation at all.
What if I removed the tier limit on the powers that you could chose? You'd still have to take one feat of questionable value (utility) for each good one (attack), but there wouldn't be any need to take more than two (3 if you take the stat-change feat) unless you really want it.
What if I removed the tier limit on the powers that you could chose? You'd still have to take one feat of questionable value (utility) for each good one (attack), but there wouldn't be any need to take more than two (3 if you take the stat-change feat) unless you really want it.
That would definitely be better.
One other thing you may need to consider is that if this race is supposed to be magical and the powers require implements, you may want to include some way to use implements for this power. If not, then your attack rolls will start to fall way behind by mid paragon tier.
What if I removed the tier limit on the powers that you could chose? You'd still have to take one feat of questionable value (utility) for each good one (attack), but there wouldn't be any need to take more than two (3 if you take the stat-change feat) unless you really want it.
That would definitely be better.
One other thing you may need to consider is that if this race is supposed to be magical and the powers require implements, you may want to include some way to use implements for this power. If not, then your attack rolls will start to fall way behind by mid paragon tier.
Already covered.
Feat #7, Heroic tier: Chose one stat, all powers gained through feats #1-#6 are now based on that stat. Also, they all now use the same implement as your class (if your class doesn't use implements, chose one from any arcane class).
Thought I might change the it so that those powers never use implements, and give them a flat attack bonus (probably +2 at paragon and +4 at epic, sort of like dragonborn's breath weapon).