Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 MechaPilot Jun 19, 2010 2:36:22	I had an idea for a primal campaign world, one that was shamanistic and pre-civilization (there are no cities and most people are tribal, nomadic, hunter-gatherers).  These weapons were designed to fit into that theme.  As this is my first attempt at creating weapons for 4e, any insights, comments, concerns, or questions are welcome. I) Fetish Claws (one-handed military melee weapon) A bracer, or bracelet, that is fashioned from cloth, leather, and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.   Attacking with fetish claws draws on the animal spirit bound within to  create claws of spirit energy that slash into your opponent. Damage: 1d8 Proficiency: +3 Weapon Group: Unarmed, heavy blade* Properties: Off-hand, defensive * I went with heavy blade as the secondary group because it is a slashing weapon. II) Fetish Jaws (two-handed military melee weapon) A necklace, or torc, that is fashioned from cloth, leather, and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.  Attacking with fetish jaws draws on the animal spirit bound within to create jaws of spirit energy that bite into your opponent. Damage: 1d12 Proficiency: +2 Weapon Group: Unarmed, axe* Properties: Brutal 2, high crit You may attack with fetish jaws while holding other weapons but you get no benefit from holding those other weapons until you spend a minor action to "draw" them again. * I chose to add the axe weapon group because jaws rely as much on crushing force as the sharpness of the teeth, much the same way an axe relies on both its crushing weight and sharpness. Fetish Weapons (most recent version) I) Fetish Claws,Light (one-handed military melee weapon) A bracer, or bracelet, that is fashioned from cloth, leather, and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.   Attacking with fetish claws draws on the animal spirit bound within to either create claws of spirit energy or transform your hands into felsh-rending claws. Damage: 1d6 Proficiency: +3 Weapon Group: To be determined Properties: Off-hand II) Fetish Claws, Heavy (one-handed military melee weapon) A  bracer, or bracelet, that is fashioned from cloth, leather,  and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.   Attacking with fetish  claws draws on the animal spirit bound within to either create claws of  spirit energy or transform your hands into felsh-rending claws. Damage: 1d8 Proficiency: +3 Weapon Group: To be determined Properties: None III) Fetish Jaws (two-handed military melee weapon) A necklace, or torc, that is fashioned from cloth, leather, and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.  Attacking with fetish jaws draws on the animal spirit bound within to either create jaws of spirit energy or transform your mouth into crushing jaws. Damage: 1d10 Proficiency: +2 Weapon Group: To be determined Properties: High crit       You may attack with fetish jaws while holding other weapons but you get no benefit from holding those other weapons until you spend a minor action to "draw" them again. IV)Manticore Tail Fetish (two-handed military ranged  weapon) A set of bracesr, gloves, or bracelets, that are  fashioned from cloth,  leather, and the tail spikes of a  manticore.   Attacking  with a manticore tail fetish draws on the animal  spirit bound within to fire the tail spikes like a crossbow bolt.  The free action used to reload causes another tail spike to form on the  fetish. Damage: 1d10 Proficiency: +2 Range: 20/40 Properties: Load free      You may attack  with a manticore tail fetish while  holding other weapons but you get no benefit from  holding those other  weapons until you spend a minor action to "draw"  them again.
#2 mplindustries Jun 19, 2010 12:46:24	As long as you're cool with no character using anything other than these, then sure.  With millitary weapons that are equal to or better than superior weapons, why would you? If you do it, though, I suggest you also make an overpowered throwing weapon and/or bow for Rangers/Seekers.  You also ought to do something that helps implement classes, because otherwise Heavy Blade and Axe using characters are going to be decidedly superior and you'll probably never see any actual Primal characters other than Wardens and Barbarians.
#3 urpriest Jun 19, 2010 12:48:34	Yeah, your claws are straight up better than longswords and your jaws are straight up better than an execution axe, and these are some of the game's better weapons. I'd tone both of them down.
#4 MechaPilot Jun 19, 2010 13:15:32	First of all, thanks for your input. As for your comments: I was aware of the possibility that these might be overpowered as I had originally considered making them superior weapons.  I am not wedded to the first drafts of these weapons and would value any specific suggestions you might have to bring them in line with existing military weapons. To tone down the claws: My first instinct would be to either drop the damage to 1d6, or the bonus to +2.  Or do you think both need to be done? To tone down the jaws: I would be inclined to remove the Brutal property and change the damage from 1d12 to 2d6 (looking at the PHB, this makes it approximately equivalent to a great axe).  Or do you think it needs to be toned down even further? Also (before any modifications), if they were both superior weapons would they still be too powerful?
#5 mplindustries Jun 19, 2010 13:47:40	Also (before any  modifications), if they were both superior weapons would they still be  too powerful? The Jaws are identical to an Executioner's Axe except that they don't occupy hands.  They'd be a tiny bit too powerful.  (I am not aware of the Unarmed group to a 2h weapon providing any kind of benefit, since all the Brawler fighter powers require a hand free anyway, so that aspect is irrelevant). The Claws would still be problematic, though, because currently, there are no stand alone off-hand weapons that deal more than 1d6 damage.  The back end of some of the Double Weapons are, but the front end isn't, which still keeps them from being as overpowered as this would be in the hands of a Tempest Fighter (the only dual wielder that actually cares about using two off-hand weapons). To tone down the claws: My first instinct would be to either drop the damage to 1d6, or the bonus to +2.  Or do you think both need to be done? If it stays Millitary, it has to be, at best, one of the following: 1) +2 proficiency, 1d6 Damage, Off-Hand, Unarmed Group 2) +3 proficiency, 1d6 damage, Off-hand, Light Blade Group If you make it superior, it could safely be: 1) +3 proficiency, 1d6 damage, Off-Hand, Unarmed and Heavy Blade Group 2) +3 proficiency, 1d8 damage, Unarmed and Heavy Blade Group The general rule is that no off-hand weapon does more than 1d6 damage unless you are literally unable to wield two of them (via being the back end of a double weapon).  The only exception to this rule is the Monk Unarmed Strike, and I don't think that a simple proficiency feat should be able to steal a class feature (especially because the class feature is balanced by being completely useless to monks that are not half-elves, hybrids, or paragon multiclassers). To tone down the jaws: I would be inclined to remove the Brutal property and change the damage from 1d12 to 2d6 (looking at the PHB, this makes it approximately equivalent to a great axe).  Or do you think it needs to be toned down even further? If you want to keep the weapon Millitary, it has to be worse than the Greataxe, because it can be used while you're holding other things.  I'd suggest (still keep it 2H): 1) +2 proficiency, 1d10 damage, High Crit, Unarmed and Axe (not that the Unarmed property actually does anything here If you wanted it to be superior, you'd just need to drop Brutal or High Crit.  You could probably even get away with just dropping it to Brutal 1, since the ability to hold other weapons isn't especially abuseable by anyone except maybe a Swordmage (since he could still hold a one-handed blade for implement attacks and get the full Warding Bonus since the Jaws don't occupy hands).
#6 MechaPilot Jun 19, 2010 14:40:25	Thank you for an in-depth response to my questions.  You've given me quite a bit to consider. There is a lot I'd like to do with these weapons (I plan to create Technique feats and Weapon Mastery feats, like those in the Dragon Annual, for each of them) so I'll have to make the military vs superior decision sooner rather than later. With regard to superior claws: Would the off-hand, superior version (quoted below) remain balanced if it had the defensive property but was not part of the heavy blade group? "1) +3 proficiency, 1d6 damage, Off-Hand, Unarmed and Heavy Blade Group" I'll also have to look into the effects of assigning them to different weapon groups.  Unarmed seems apropriate (as they mimic the unarmed attacks of animals/monsters), but it might be more appropriate to assign them based on how they deal damage (hence the claws as heavy blade and jaws as axe) or to even create a new "Feral" weapon group (for weapons that recreate the natural attack forms of animals or monsters).  I'm aware that creating a new weapon group requires a bit more work (as I'll need to support it with feats and work it into the fighter class), but I planned on doing some of this work already (feat support ties into the Technique and Weapon Mastery feats I mentioned above).  If you have any advice/thoughts on, or concerns about, creating a new weapon group, I would be glad to hear them.
#7 mplindustries Jun 19, 2010 15:08:10	With regard to superior claws: Would the off-hand, superior version (quoted below) remain balanced if it had the defensive property but was not part of the heavy blade group? "1) +3 proficiency, 1d6 damage, Off-Hand, Unarmed and Heavy Blade Group" The only weapon, other than Double Weapons, with the Defensive quality is the Parrying Dagger.  It is a superior weapon: +3 proficiency, 1d4 damage, Off-Hand, Lightblade.  If you added Defensive, your weapon would be strictly better than the Parrying Dagger. I'll also have to look into the effects of assigning them to different weapon groups.  Unarmed seems apropriate (as they mimic the unarmed attacks of animals/monsters), but it might be more appropriate to assign them based on how they deal damage (hence the claws as heavy blade and jaws as axe) or to even create a new "Feral" weapon group (for weapons that recreate the natural attack forms of animals or monsters). The trick of the Unarmed category is that it effectively means absolutely nothing for any character other than Brawler Fighters, for whom it is excellent.  You could safely remove the Unarmed Weapon Group without hurting the weapon in any way whatsover, but if you leave it, you have to consider the impact such a weapon would have on that one Fighter build. Currently, their best (effectively only) option is the Spiked Gauntlet, which is a military weapon with +2 proficiency, 1d6, Off-hand. I'm aware that creating a new weapon group requires a bit more work (as I'll need to support it with feats and work it into the fighter class), but I planned on doing some of this work already (feat support ties into the Technique and Weapon Mastery feats I mentioned above).  If you have any advice/thoughts on, or concerns about, creating a new weapon group, I would be glad to hear them. Well, if you want to do that work, then my suggestions would be (for some reason, I really like numbered lists today): 1) Don't tie them into the Fighter class, tie them into the Warden and/or Barbarian.  The whole point is for a Primal feel, right? 2) You have to choose what attributes will be needed for the feats.  Strength is probably a given, but Con, Dex, Wisdom, and even Charisma all have a potential place.  Personally, I'd mimic the stat requirements of the Heavy Blade, (13 str, 13 X in heroic; 15 str, 15 X in paragon; 21 Str, 17 X in epic).  Actually, you could create a couple styles of this new weapon group, so that different builds of Wardens and Barbarians could each utilize one. If you give a better idea of what you want out of this stuff, I'll help with editing and matching concepts with mechanics.
#8 MechaPilot Jun 19, 2010 18:43:35	Thanks to your assistance in refining these weapons, this is where they're at so far: I) Fetish Claws (one-handed military melee weapon) A bracer, or bracelet, that is fashioned from cloth, leather, and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.   Attacking with fetish claws draws on the animal spirit bound within to either create claws of spirit energy or transform your hands into felsh-rending claws. Damage: 1d6 Proficiency: +3 Weapon Group: To be determined Properties: Off-hand II) Fetish Jaws (two-handed military melee weapon) A necklace, or torc, that is fashioned from cloth, leather, and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.  Attacking with fetish jaws draws on the animal spirit bound within to either create jaws of spirit energy or transform your mouth into crushing jaws. Damage: 1d10 Proficiency: +2 Weapon Group: To be determined Properties: High crit       You may attack with fetish jaws while holding other weapons but you get no benefit from holding those other weapons until you spend a minor action to "draw" them again. I finally decided upon making them military weapons instead of superior ones.  I figured this would make them appeal to a larger number of classes.  I still intend however to make them most attractive to Primal classes, and to nature-oriented classes like the Ranger (I'm still in the conceptual stage for ranged fetish weapons, but the two claws would work well for a two-blade ranger). I'm still not sure what to do about weapon groups yet, so I'll be taking some time later tonight to look over all the pertinent game material (class builds, feats, powers, etc).  With regard to my mention of the fighter* class, I do not intend to tie fetish weapons explicitly to any one class (I only mentioned the fighter because a new weapon group would need to be worked into the fighter class' table of weapon groups and their powers that are augmented with certain weapon groups). * I should also point out that the fighter still works with the primal feel.  So as not to exclude any classes from my primal setting I have reskinned traditional armor into two primal equivalents.  The first is fetish armor, and the second is a form of protective scarification/tattooing/war paint. As for what I am looking to do with the fetish weapons themselves, here are some of my concepts: 1) I want rangers and primal classes get more benefit from using fetish weapons: static bonuses to hit, or to damage, or by adding a property or special ability to the weapon's use.  New weapon Technique feats can add special benefits to using fetish weapons with existing primal/ranger powers. 2) I want the use of fetish weapons to open more options: Weapon training feats that allow for power swap.  Ideas for some powers are a two-claw attack, a vicious bite that does ongoing blood loss, a two-claw rend, and a pouncing attack (a bite version and a claw version).
#9 mplindustries Jun 19, 2010 21:02:47	(I'm still in the conceptual stage for ranged fetish weapons, but the two claws would work well for a two-blade ranger). No, they wouldn't.  They're off-hand, so the Two-Bladed Ranger gets no benefit whatsoever and probably should still go for bastard swords, or the very least, Longswords. Just one thought for now--how about a new Ranger build?  Something they could take instead of the Two-Blade style.  Maybe: Fetish Ranger - You may wield three Fetish weapons at the same time (two Claws and a Jaw or three Claws...the third could be on your feet, for example).  Before using a Weapon attack power, you must choose which of the three weapons is your primary weapon and which is your off-hand.  Once per turn, when you are wielding three Fetish weapons, you have not yet dealt your Quarry's extra damage, and you miss with an attack* against your Quarry that has no effect on a miss, you may repeat that attack using your third weapon instead.  If you do so, you may not deal your Quarry's extra damage until the beginning of your next turn. * "An attack" in this context is an attack line.  You do not repeat an entire power, just one attack line of that power. I don't know, just a quick brainstorm.  The way I see it is that you get to trade your normal striker damage feature for a slightly weaker form of the Avenger's Oath (weaker because you can only reroll a miss, so your crit chance doesn't increase nearly as much).  In exchance, you are limited to millitary weapons (PS - if you do this, don't create superior fetish weapons) and you must maintain three magic weapons to take full advantage.
#10 MechaPilot Jun 19, 2010 21:19:01	(I'm still in the conceptual stage for ranged fetish weapons, but the two claws would work well for a two-blade ranger). No, they wouldn't.  They're off-hand, so the Two-Bladed Ranger gets no benefit whatsoever and probably should still go for bastard swords, or the very least, Longswords. Just one thought for now--how about a new Ranger build?  Something they could take instead of the Two-Blade style. Thank you for the clarification.  I overlooked that.  Maybe I should make two claw weapons: a light claw (1-handed, off-hand) and a heavy claw (1-handed, not off-hand).  I don't know if the heavy claw should have anything else modified to differentiate it from the light claw though. Also, I have come up with a ranged fetish weapon: Manticore Tail Fetish (two-handed military ranged weapon) A set of bracesr, gloves, or bracelets, that are fashioned from cloth,  leather, and the tail spikes of a manticore.   Attacking  with a manticore tail fetish draws on the animal spirit bound within to fire the tail spikes like a crossbow bolt.  The minor action used to reload causes another tail spike to form on the fetish. Damage: 1d8 Proficiency: +2 Range: 15/30 Properties: Load minor You may attack  with a manticore tail fetish while holding other weapons but you get no benefit from  holding those other weapons until you spend a minor action to "draw"  them again. Note: All I did here was reskin the crossbow (a weapon too technologically advanced for the setting) into a fetish weapon.  This weapon has the same peculiar 2-handedness as the fetish jaws, so I may have to downgrade this weapon to compensate. Any thoughts, concerns, or criticisms would be appreciated.
#11 mplindustries Jun 19, 2010 21:46:12	Note: All I did here was reskin the crossbow (a weapon too technologically advanced for the setting) into a fetish weapon.  This weapon has the same peculiar 2-handedness as the fetish jaws, so I may have to downgrade this weapon to compensate. Any thoughts, concerns, or criticisms would be appreciated. Actually, since it's a millitary weapon rather than a simple one, I think you're better off mimicking the Longbow (which is also too advanced for a very primitive setting, by the way).  If you want to downgrade it for the holding other weapons thing, I'd suggest using longbow stats, but keeping the load minor.
#12 MechaPilot Jun 19, 2010 21:51:01	Note: All I did here was reskin the crossbow (a weapon too technologically advanced for the setting) into a fetish weapon.  This weapon has the same peculiar 2-handedness as the fetish jaws, so I may have to downgrade this weapon to compensate. Any thoughts, concerns, or criticisms would be appreciated. Actually, since it's a millitary weapon rather than a simple one, I think you're better off mimicking the Longbow (which is also too advanced for a very primitive setting, by the way). I hadn't actually considered that the longbow would be too advanced.  Now that you mention it, it clearly makes sense; it just didn't occur to me earlier. If you want to downgrade it for the holding other weapons thing, I'd suggest using longbow stats, but keeping the load minor. It's not that I want to downgrade it, I just don't want to create an overpowered mess that I'll have to tinker with again later on.  Do you think reskinning a longbow as the manticore tail fetish (with the peculiar 2-handedness) is too powerful?
#13 MechaPilot Jun 20, 2010 12:02:52	After tinkering with a few things, this is where fetish weapons stand so far: I) Fetish Claws,Light (one-handed military melee weapon) A bracer, or bracelet, that is fashioned from cloth, leather, and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.   Attacking with fetish claws draws on the animal spirit bound within to either create claws of spirit energy or transform your hands into felsh-rending claws. Damage: 1d6 Proficiency: +3 Weapon Group: To be determined Properties: Off-hand II) Fetish Claws, Heavy (one-handed military melee weapon) A  bracer, or bracelet, that is fashioned from cloth, leather,  and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.   Attacking with fetish  claws draws on the animal spirit bound within to either create claws of  spirit energy or transform your hands into felsh-rending claws. Damage: 1d8 Proficiency: +3 Weapon Group: To be determined Properties: None III) Fetish Jaws (two-handed military melee weapon) A necklace, or torc, that is fashioned from cloth, leather, and the fangs or claws of an animal or monster.  Attacking with fetish jaws draws on the animal spirit bound within to either create jaws of spirit energy or transform your mouth into crushing jaws. Damage: 1d10 Proficiency: +2 Weapon Group: To be determined Properties: High crit       You may attack with fetish jaws while holding other weapons but you get no benefit from holding those other weapons until you spend a minor action to "draw" them again. IV)Manticore Tail Fetish (two-handed military ranged  weapon) A set of bracesr, gloves, or bracelets, that are  fashioned from cloth,  leather, and the tail spikes of a  manticore.   Attacking  with a manticore tail fetish draws on the animal  spirit bound within to fire the tail spikes like a crossbow bolt.  The free action used to reload causes another tail spike to form on the  fetish. Damage: 1d10 Proficiency: +2 Range: 20/40 Properties: Load free      You may attack  with a manticore tail fetish while  holding other weapons but you get no benefit from  holding those other  weapons until you spend a minor action to "draw"  them again. I took your advice and made the manticore tail fetish a reskin of the longbow.  I also split fetish claws into two weapons, one light and one heavy (the heavy version is just a reskinned longsword so they should be fine balance-wise).  Throwing in this heavy version makes fetish claws an acceptable alternative for two-blade rangers. At this stage, I'm pretty much done designing fetish weapons themselves (though I will take another look at them if someone can show me how one or more of them are overpowered).  All I have left to do with the basic weapons is to assign weapon groups; which is gonna require me to have a thorough look at class builds and existing weapon feats.  After I get the weapon groups down, I'll be taking a look at feat support for the weapons.
#14 mplindustries Jun 20, 2010 22:32:51	Minor nitpick before you move on to the more advanced stuff:  Longbows do 1d10, not 1d8.
#15 MechaPilot Jun 21, 2010 14:53:20	Thank you for the correction, I missed that line when I was changing it from crossbow to longbow equivalent.  I have corrected it in the above post.  Also, thank you very much for your help thus far.  You have been most patient and edifying.