| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1ventuAug 01, 2008 19:36:21 | Just some ideas.. comments? PC Building HR: of all the characters are being too much "equal", except in combat, but there is not much unique identity perceived as it was in 3.5 SUBPROBLEM: all are more or less equally good in the various skills. Exemple: A 10th level-warrior without training will probably outsmart a 3th-level wizard in arcana. HR 1) Only Primary-Class-related skills (plus multiclass skills) have the +1/2xLevel bonus in skill checks. All the other have +1/3xLevel.. HR 2) Add a Paragon Feat "skill-master" with prerequisite skill-focus, which adds +2 to a particular use of a focused skill (exemple: thievery for lock-picking, perception for following tracks, stealth for moving silently, arcana for magic item identification). SUBPROBLEM: Being able to multiclass only once and in a "weak-way" does not allow people to build well all character concepts HR 3) Add "second multiclassing feat" available at Paragon Tier. It works as the ones in the PH, but it limits the choice of swapped power up to max 10th-level power. HR 4) Add the "Paragon heavy-multiclass feat" which allows to use one more class feature of the second-class if the character choose Paragon Multiclassing instead of the Path SUBPROBLEM: Apart from combat powers and few utilities, the characters don't have much more that characterizes them. HR 5) Instead of getting the +1 to two characteristics at some levels, the PC can choose to get only +1 to one characteristic and one more feat. SUBPROBLEM: Magic as we knew it seems disappeared. All non-combat spells are rituals and anybody can cast them more-or-less "equally well", but there is now very little magic useful in an encounter since the casting time of all these rituals (also silence, alarm, or tenser's disk!) is very long. HR 6) Increase the DC in the skill-checks of all rituals by 5. HR 7) Add the "ritual-expert feat: choose two schools of rituals (illusions, scrying..).you get +2 in the skill-checks in those schools" HR 8) Add the "quick-ritualist feat": you can divide the casting time of a memorized ritual by 10, if you are not aided. You increase the DC of the skill check by 10 (min 10.) exemple: 1 minute becomes 1 round. You must use residuum for the ritual" HR 9) Add the paragon "spontaneous-ritualist feat": if you are a quick ritualist, you can divide the casting time of a memorized by 50 (5 minutes become 1 round). You must use residuum for the ritual" HR 10) "choose three rituals you master. you get +3 on the skill checks when you perform these rituals" HR 11) anybody can memorize three rituals that can use without the ritual-book by taking the "memorized rituals" feat. Add +2 at the DC of the ritual when they are casted without the book. COMBAT HR: SUBPROBLEM: It's quite difficult to kill a PC, since once they are on the ground, they can come up again or can be stabilized with a simple standard. Either you use a lot of coups-de-grace or you need to knock down -all the party-. What's more, stabilizing with a standard action is quite unrealistic. HR 1) One character is dead when it reaches its negative HEALING SURGE value (not bloodied) HR 2) If you score 1 or less in the dying saving throw, you're dead (unless you take the paragon "die-hard feat") HR 3) each "closer-to-death" roll brings 5 damages. HR 4) Stabilizing is a skill-challenge with DC 5 + the number of negative damage (min 10). Each success cancels one "closer-to-death" result and gives +2 to the next death saving throw roll. Once all the closer-to-death have been removed, the character is stable and gets up with a natural roll of 20, each round. |
| #2master-of-puppetsAug 01, 2008 20:57:03 | Just some ideas.. comments? according with??? I feel like they are much diferent than they used to be SUBPROBLEM: all are more or less equally good in the various skills. Exemple: A 10th level-warrior without training will probably outsmart a 3th-level wizard in arcana. I dont now what math are you using... a lvl 3 wizard has +4 INT, +1xLvl +5xtrained = 10, a 10lvl fighter has few INT, and +5xlvl total = 6, 7? HR 1) Only Primary-Class-related skills (plus multiclass skills) have the +1/2xLevel bonus in skill checks. All the other have +1/3xLevel.. Im not comfortable with the skills as they go, Ill HR them, but your sistem doesnt add nothing new, just more maths and an aditional worthless feat SUBPROBLEM: Being able to multiclass only once and in a "weak-way" does not allow people to build well all character concepts it doesnt let powergamers play builds instead if characters... even though I agree with you that many ideas cannot be done yet HR 3) Add "second multiclassing feat" available at Paragon Tier. It works as the ones in the PH, but it limits the choice of swapped power up to max 10th-level power. this doesnt addres the problem you just dont need to HR the 3rd option and [HR 4] is just powergame 4e spirit is that you keep the spirit o fyour first class, letting pick the class features is just waht made 3e multiclass broken HR 5) Instead of getting the +1 to two characteristics at some levels, the PC can choose to get only +1 to one characteristic and one more feat. again more powergaming with 3e feeling to it... dont you have enough feats? you receive them at lvls: 1-2-4-6-8-10-11-12-14... and there are few feats that do give flesh to the character now, what you need is to create (and avoid re-create the 3e combat feats) more feats to give life to the concepts of your character maybe some that let you resemble a class feature? (change it a little, make it less class dependant....) SUBPROBLEM: yes, magic has changed a lot, but I believe its for the greater good I like your ideas, theyd need simplification but the base is good, I dont fee a lot like implementing HR8 but many players would be gratefull for it |
| #3ventuAug 01, 2008 22:23:35 | I dont now what math are you using... a lvl 3 wizard has +4 INT, +1xLvl +5xtrained = 10, a 10lvl fighter has few INT, and +5xlvl total = 6, 7? And do you feel confortable with such a small (15%) difference? I don't mean to come back to AD&D where from core you couldn't pickpocket if you were not a thief, but... I think that skill-focusing is a big part of the character concept. and there are few feats that do give flesh to the character now, what you need is to create (and avoid re-create the 3e combat feats) more feats to give life to the concepts of your character this is certainly right! But I feel that the new mechanics allows characters to develop their uniqueness practically only through feats. So the more, the better. When I meant that characters are flat I mean that, except from few difference in combat, all fighters will be more or less the same, all wizards more or less the same... I mean we are really bound to the "builds" and it's hard to create our own. This is why I think we should open more to multiclassing.. it's not necessarily powergaming. |
| #4master-of-puppetsAug 02, 2008 10:20:25 | What you are experiencing is the change between your 20 3e books and your 3 4e books, yes, there are less option available, but this is again like your first games, try first what's in the books and then start building the concepts you want you'll find that fighters have almost infinite building posibilities as they advance, there are many weapon specializations and cool utilities the multiclass options, if houseruled simply with open hand alow for a width variety of options for more multiclasing and proestige classes you can go here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1069189 |
| #5squarecircleAug 02, 2008 11:17:40 | And do you feel confortable with such a small (15%) difference? I don't mean to come back to AD&D where from core you couldn't pickpocket if you were not a thief, but... I think that skill-focusing is a big part of the character concept. +15% difference is HUGE in 4e. Bonuses are not NEARLY as commonplace as they were in 3e. It's hard to get bonuses in 4e. Plus, really, the difference is probably even greater. A well-built wizard has 18 intelligence and training in Arcana, so at level 3 that's +4 for Intelligence, +5 for trained, and +1 for level for a total of +10. The 10th level fighter probably used Intelligence as a dump stat, since for a fighter the only stat even close to being as unimportant is Charisma, which still gives bonuses to Intimidate and such. So a well-built fighter has an Intelligence of 8 at level 1, and is NOT trained in Arcana. I don't have my PHB on me but I don't think you get a +1 to all stats on or before level 10. If you do, please let me know. So the fighter, with INT 8, has -1 for Intelligence and +5 for level. That's a total of +4 to Arcana checks, a 6 point spread from the trained level 3 wizard. And the fighter is much higher level and therefore much more experienced than the wizard, having probably personally fought and seen a lot of magic that the level 3 wizard only knows in theory! 6 points over the fighter is a +30% better chance at Arcana checks, which is VERY significant. this is certainly right! Feats are plentiful in 4e and the feats available are all pretty unique. Considering both powers and feats, characters can be pretty different from each other. I don't think multiclassing as is is bad, but that's a topic for a different discussion. I'm just saying that characters are plenty unique as is. I mean, take the fighter for example. You have two builds available- the sword and board build and the two-handed fighter build. Those are obvious. But you can pick up the two-weapon fighting feat and have a two-blade fighter that's just as viable as the basic builds! He even gets full benefit from the fighter weapon talent because it doesn't specify that you HAVE to sword-and-board or THF. Further, you have powers that have different affects based on weapon type, AND feats that require different weapons, so a fighter's weapon choice is important, regardless of his build. That's a lot of uniqueness right there. Further, consider that if you want to specialize in heavy blades, you'll want a high DEX. With a high enough dex you could actually make an almost swashbuckler-type character that wears light armor! On the flip side, you could create a maul fighter that wears plate-- possibly an alternative knight character, contrasted with the archetypal paladin. |
| #6ventuAug 02, 2008 20:04:11 | +15% difference is HUGE in 4e. Bonuses are not NEARLY as commonplace as they were in 3e. It's hard to get bonuses in 4e. That's probably the point. I don't like that a 15% is to be considered a huge bonus, simply because, especially at high level, your ability rank is mostly dominated by your 1/2-level and not by your character concept and the choices you made. ventu |
| #7wyld_mutationAug 02, 2008 20:31:47 | I know there was a "skills suck" fight... Where was it... Anyway: You get a massive boost from your skill training. And DCs increase as you level up so the 1/2 level is there to keep you in line with the increase. |