Fighters as weaponmasters (the golfbag fighter) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fighters as weaponmasters (the golfbag fighter)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jimbozig
Feb 18, 2012 22:08:20 So the motivation for this is the simple fact that in history fighters used different weapons for different situations - a lance makes sense from horseback and is stupid on foot. A rapier is a great weapon for dueling and beyond foolish for a knight in battle. So the class I'm trying to make here is a fighter that gets different effects out of different weapons. Note that the weapon groups I am using differ from the weapon groups in standard 4e. Also if a player wants to stick to one weapon but call these stances that he switches between as a minor, that's fine by me too.

The mechanic will work like this. The fighter can change weapons (or stances) as a minor. When wielding each weapon, they get the following bonuses when they hit with a melee basic attack. This would effectively replace at-wills. Fighters would be able to choose 4 or 5 of the 6 to have available:

Bludgeoning - slide target 2 squares

Cleaving - deal 3 damage to an adjacent enemy other than the target

Defensive - gain +2 AC for 1 round

Grappling - target is slowed

Note: The next two do not grant bonuses to hitting with a MBA, but rather change how and when you can make a basic attack

Polearm - Attack with reach 2

Ranged - May attack at range 5 (this allows them to use their primary score for the attack and damage)

Next, as an encounter power a fighter can trigger one of the following effects. At paragon, the fighter will be able to choose one or two of these to be at-will.

Bludgeoning - knock target prone

Cleaving - deal ½ damage to an adjacent enemy other than the target

Defensive - target can’t hit you with a melee attack for 1 round

Grappling - target is grabbed

Polearm - Gain Threatening reach 2 (for 1 round when this is an encounter power)

Ranged - range 20

Finally we have daily powers (at paragon, one or two of these will become encounter powers)

Bludgeoning - Target is dazed

Cleaving - deal ½ damage to all adjacent enemies other than the target

Defensive - Target can’t make melee attacks for 1 round (flavoured as disarming them)

Grappling - target is restrained and knocked prone

Polearm - Threatening reach 3 and reach 3 (for 1 round)

Ranged - range 50

You'll note that none of these options increase your accuracy, nor do they increase your single-target damage. That's because I believe accuracy boosts are too tempting to pass up, and that increasing single-target damage is for strikers. This class is meant to be a defender.

Contrary to what you might think from my introduction, I'm not interested in having these effects be "realistic". I'm actually interested in getting something very specific from this thread - are these balanced within each power type - at-will, encounter, and daily? I know that you'll all want to chime in with how you would implement this, or maybe that it's a terrible idea, and I can't stop you from doing so. But what would be really valuable to me is if you could tell me - is there one weapon type that is the clear winner or the clear loser at any given level?
#2
bone_naga
Feb 18, 2012 23:23:38 Does a grapple slow the target while he is grabbed (doesn't make sense) or after the grab? Is it a 1 round slow or slowed (save ends)? Does this replace the grabbed effect (that's not much of a benefit then)? Or is there something I'm missing here? Is this supposed to be an effect for some special sort of weapon?

Bludgeoning weapons completely negate any use for Bull Rush and I'm not sure how they would interact with other forced movement powers (like would it really make sense to push someone and then be able to slide them).

Polearm really has no heroic tier advantage (they already have reach).

The epic tier ranged 50 benefit for ranged weapons seems excessive. Why not 5/10/20 for heroic/paragon/epic?

You say these replace at-wills, why not just say these benefits only apply with basic attacks?
#3
rampant
Feb 19, 2012 0:01:19 You know there's already a golf-bag fighter build right?

A dragon article from last year I think, anyway it all sorts of powers each of which had a different effect for several weapon groups
#4
jimbozig
Feb 19, 2012 10:06:17
Does a grapple slow the target while he is grabbed (doesn't make sense) or after the grab? Is it a 1 round slow or slowed (save ends)? Does this replace the grabbed effect (that's not much of a benefit then)? Or is there something I'm missing here? Is this supposed to be an effect for some special sort of weapon?

Bludgeoning weapons completely negate any use for Bull Rush and I'm not sure how they would interact with other forced movement powers (like would it really make sense to push someone and then be able to slide them).

Polearm really has no heroic tier advantage (they already have reach).

The epic tier ranged 50 benefit for ranged weapons seems excessive. Why not 5/10/20 for heroic/paragon/epic?

You say these replace at-wills, why not just say these benefits only apply with basic attacks?

Sorry, if not specified all effects last for 1 round. Also I want to do away with "it's easier to hit a knight with a dagger than with a sword" bullshit and so you can assume that aside from the listed benefits, all weapons will be equally accurate and damaging. As Dungeon World says, weapons don't do damage - heroes do damage.

And I'm quite okay with obsoleting bull rush. Lots of powers obsolete bull rush.

Range 50 is easily achievable by a level 1 ranger if he takes a -2. It doesn't seem excessive to me as an epic bonus.

Also some of these literally do replace or replicate at-wills. The Cleaving benefit replaces Cleave, for instance. The defensive benefit is similar to Resolute Shield (but better since resolute is no good).

And I don't like the published article and in particular Weapon Master's Strike partly because it's not well balanced (would you rather deal extra damage, slide the target 1 square or... get +1 AC against only that target?) and some parts are simply poorly written. You have a polearm and so the enemy provokes an opportunity attack when it shifts - that means you can opportunity attack it when it shifts from 2 squares away to 3. You have threatening reach for shifting but not for moving. That's dumb.

I'm happy to keep answering questions, but I'm not really here for that - I'm here to find out if these are balanced. What do you think?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jimbozig Feb 18, 2012 22:08:20	So the motivation for this is the simple fact that in history fighters used different weapons for different situations - a lance makes sense from horseback and is stupid on foot. A rapier is a great weapon for dueling and beyond foolish for a knight in battle. So the class I'm trying to make here is a fighter that gets different effects out of different weapons. Note that the weapon groups I am using differ from the weapon groups in standard 4e. Also if a player wants to stick to one weapon but call these stances that he switches between as a minor, that's fine by me too. The mechanic will work like this. The fighter can change weapons (or stances) as a minor. When wielding each weapon, they get the following bonuses when they hit with a melee basic attack. This would effectively replace at-wills. Fighters would be able to choose 4 or 5 of the 6 to have available: Bludgeoning - slide target 2 squares Cleaving - deal 3 damage to an adjacent enemy other than the target Defensive - gain +2 AC for 1 round Grappling - target is slowed Note: The next two do not grant bonuses to hitting with a MBA, but rather change how and when you can make a basic attack Polearm - Attack with reach 2 Ranged - May attack at range 5 (this allows them to use their primary score for the attack and damage) Next, as an encounter power a fighter can trigger one of the following effects. At paragon, the fighter will be able to choose one or two of these to be at-will. Bludgeoning - knock target prone Cleaving - deal ½ damage to an adjacent enemy other than the target Defensive - target can’t hit you with a melee attack for 1 round Grappling - target is grabbed Polearm - Gain Threatening reach 2 (for 1 round when this is an encounter power) Ranged - range 20 Finally we have daily powers (at paragon, one or two of these will become encounter powers) Bludgeoning - Target is dazed Cleaving - deal ½ damage to all adjacent enemies other than the target Defensive - Target can’t make melee attacks for 1 round (flavoured as disarming them) Grappling - target is restrained and knocked prone Polearm - Threatening reach 3 and reach 3 (for 1 round) Ranged - range 50 You'll note that none of these options increase your accuracy, nor do they increase your single-target damage. That's because I believe accuracy boosts are too tempting to pass up, and that increasing single-target damage is for strikers. This class is meant to be a defender. Contrary to what you might think from my introduction, I'm not interested in having these effects be "realistic". I'm actually interested in getting something very specific from this thread - are these balanced within each power type - at-will, encounter, and daily? I know that you'll all want to chime in with how you would implement this, or maybe that it's a terrible idea, and I can't stop you from doing so. But what would be really valuable to me is if you could tell me - is there one weapon type that is the clear winner or the clear loser at any given level?
#2 bone_naga Feb 18, 2012 23:23:38	Does a grapple slow the target while he is grabbed (doesn't make sense) or after the grab? Is it a 1 round slow or slowed (save ends)? Does this replace the grabbed effect (that's not much of a benefit then)? Or is there something I'm missing here? Is this supposed to be an effect for some special sort of weapon? Bludgeoning weapons completely negate any use for Bull Rush and I'm not sure how they would interact with other forced movement powers (like would it really make sense to push someone and then be able to slide them). Polearm really has no heroic tier advantage (they already have reach). The epic tier ranged 50 benefit for ranged weapons seems excessive. Why not 5/10/20 for heroic/paragon/epic? You say these replace at-wills, why not just say these benefits only apply with basic attacks?
#3 rampant Feb 19, 2012 0:01:19	You know there's already a golf-bag fighter build right? A dragon article from last year I think, anyway it all sorts of powers each of which had a different effect for several weapon groups
#4 jimbozig Feb 19, 2012 10:06:17	Does a grapple slow the target while he is grabbed (doesn't make sense) or after the grab? Is it a 1 round slow or slowed (save ends)? Does this replace the grabbed effect (that's not much of a benefit then)? Or is there something I'm missing here? Is this supposed to be an effect for some special sort of weapon? Bludgeoning weapons completely negate any use for Bull Rush and I'm not sure how they would interact with other forced movement powers (like would it really make sense to push someone and then be able to slide them). Polearm really has no heroic tier advantage (they already have reach). The epic tier ranged 50 benefit for ranged weapons seems excessive. Why not 5/10/20 for heroic/paragon/epic? You say these replace at-wills, why not just say these benefits only apply with basic attacks? Sorry, if not specified all effects last for 1 round. Also I want to do away with "it's easier to hit a knight with a dagger than with a sword" bullshit and so you can assume that aside from the listed benefits, all weapons will be equally accurate and damaging. As Dungeon World says, weapons don't do damage - heroes do damage. And I'm quite okay with obsoleting bull rush. Lots of powers obsolete bull rush. Range 50 is easily achievable by a level 1 ranger if he takes a -2. It doesn't seem excessive to me as an epic bonus. Also some of these literally do replace or replicate at-wills. The Cleaving benefit replaces Cleave, for instance. The defensive benefit is similar to Resolute Shield (but better since resolute is no good). And I don't like the published article and in particular Weapon Master's Strike partly because it's not well balanced (would you rather deal extra damage, slide the target 1 square or... get +1 AC against only that target?) and some parts are simply poorly written. You have a polearm and so the enemy provokes an opportunity attack when it shifts - that means you can opportunity attack it when it shifts from 2 squares away to 3. You have threatening reach for shifting but not for moving. That's dumb. I'm happy to keep answering questions, but I'm not really here for that - I'm here to find out if these are balanced. What do you think?