Figuring out the weapon upgrade rules to make a Custom Weapons mechanic

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

wazat1

Jun 14, 2011 20:38:30
The D&D weapons tables actually follow a fairly logical path in their progression from simple to military to superior categories, or from weapon to weapon within a category.  The D&D devs probably have a well-defined rules set for creating weapons and categorizing them.  This system could be derived by the community, assuming it hasn't been already, and used to create player weapon customization rules.

This would allow players to create their own weapons under a rules set that would keep their customizations in line with the other weapons in the game.  A player could, for example, build his vision of the Rhomphaia from Vagrant Story and make it powerful, but it would be a superior weapon and require a proficiency feat to wield.

Could we use the weapons tables to derive a basic rules set for players to create balanced weapons?  I figure we could take a shot at it.  If someone's already done this to great effect, I'd love a link to it!

Let's start by analyzing a few axes:

Handaxe: military 1-handed, +2, d6, off-hand, heavy thrown
Battleaxe: military 1-handed, +2, d10, versatile
Waraxe: superior 1-handed, +2, d12, versatile

Halberd: military 2-handed, +2, d10, reach
Greataxe: military 2-handed, +2, d12, high crit
Execution Axe: superior 2-handed, +2, d12, brutal 2, high crit

Among one-handed, moving from battleaxe to waraxe takes us from d10 to d12, and elevates it up a category (military to superior).  Moving from Handaxe to Battleaxe is more complicated, as it takes us from a d6 to d10 (a large jump) and gives versatile, but sheds the off-hand and heavy-thrown properties.

In the 2-handed category, moving from greataxe to execution axe adds brutal 2 and elevates it to superior.  Moving from Greataxe to Halberd drops from d12 to d10, and trades high crit for reach (and the polearm group, which has its own implications).

Things are interesting from traversing from 1-handed to 2-handed.  Two-handed weapons do not allow holding a sheild or keeping the off-hand free for other purposes, so they're quite a bit more powerful.  Changing a Battleaxe into a Halberd trades versatile for reach/polearm, while changing it into a Greataxe trades that versatile for brutal 2 and high crit.  A superior Waraxe becomes a superior Execution Axe by trading versatile for brutal 2 and high-crit.

Looking at light blades, we see that Sickle->Short Sword yields a +2->+3 proficiency, and elevates it to the military category.



To make sense of the damage increases, it helps to refer to the Weapons and Size tables on PHB page 220:
One-handed: 1d4->1d6->1d8->1d10->1d12>2d6->2d8->2d10
Two-handed: 1d8->2d4->1d10->1d12->2d6->2d8->2d10
These paths are identical from 1d10 up.  They differ in that two handed starts at d8, and separates 1d8 and 1d10 with an additonal step of 2d4.


So we have some simple cases, and some complex cases.  We can derive a few rules already:


  • Moving up a category allows for any one of these: +1 proficiency, single increase to damage die, or moderately powerful new property (possibly trading a weak property in the process).  Moving down sacrifices one of these options.

  • Moving from 1-handed to 2-handed might give a larger bonus than moving up a category, perhaps 1.5x or 2x.  Needs more analysis.

  • Large changes in damage die are accompanied by ostensibly equal shifts in other areas, as seen in handaxe->battleaxe.  This will need to be broken into smaller steps to understand it properly.

  • Some weapon properties are significantly more valuable than others.  Versatile appears to be near the bottom of the pile, followed by high crit, heavy thrown, and brutal 1, to name a few.  Reach/polearm and brutal 2 are quite valuable.

    • Edit: Maybe this would be represented best by a point system: versatile is 2 points, high crit is 4, brutal 1 is 4, brutal 2 is 6, reach/polearm is 8, reach without polearm (spiked chain) is 6, etc.  (but seriously, I'm just throwing out numbers; don't take these as actual recommended values).  I don't remember what brutal 1 and 2 equate to in damage, but maybe they could be treated as their equivalent in the damage progression chart above?





Here's another example, though: Battleaxe->Khopesh gives up damage, d10->d8, and in exchange gains the Heavy Blade group and Brutal 1.  This does not elevate it to superior, nor affect its proficiency.  Is this an odd case, or is adding the Heavy Blade group and Brutal 1 the equivalent of a drop in damage die?  I personally think dual-group weapons are more powerful than that (feats of both groups now apply to the same weapon), but the D&D devs may see it differently.

And another example, Falchion->Fullblade takes us from 2d4 to d12 (2 levels of damage), in exchange for bumping up to superior.  Other weapons only get d10->d12 etc, but they're often trading versatile for something like high-crit.  That may account for the difference?

For ranged weapons, Longbow becomes shortbow in the same category by trading a damage level and some distance for the Small property.  Longbow->Greatbow jumps a category to increase the damage die and get more range.  Both are pretty conventional.
Crossbows are interesting, though.  A hand crossbow jumps a category for an increase in damage die and range, but it gains the negative property "load minor" instead of "load free".  Harsh.  Crossbow to superior crossbow grants a bonus to proficiency, damage die and range.  That's an amazing bonus!  Most upgrades boost proficiency or damage, but not both.

These examples may throw a wrench in the works, or they may simply be examples of where devs strayed (for good or bad).  And this is just examples from the PHB and AV.  I haven't seen AV2 yet, and it may have all kinds of exciting deviants.


Stepping away from analysis of the tables, a custom weapons mechanic would need to account for powergaming.  As a power gamer myself, my natural tendency is to hunt for the most powerful option and use it to the fullest, ala a 2d4 axe with brutal 2, which I can make Vorpal in late levels after taking the Deadly Axe feat.  I don't care if I have to spend 1-2 feats to be proficient with this weapon... the exploit is powerful enough to be worth it (a 3 is the only thing that doesn't reroll during damage, causing exploding dice up the wazoo).  Some properties may need to be very limited, or even unavailable to players doing customization.  Otherwise players like me will turn the system on its head.


Anyway, I think this could be a cool system if it could be worked out.  Or if someone's already created a functioning one.  This could also act as a guide for DMs putting together custom weapons for campaigns.

Comments?
#2

smbakeresq

Jun 14, 2011 22:12:34
The funny thing about versatile is it is equivalent to brutal 2 until you get to multiple damage dice.  Brutal 1 adds 0.5 damage to each weapon die, Brutal 2 adds 1 to each weapon die, versatile adds 1 to the total.  I often use a versatile weapon early until I "graduate" (have room for the feat) to a superior weapon.


Brutal 2 d6's with large versions are nice though, and it can save from having to get Gauntlets of Destruction.


I think reach has a declining curve, since as you go up more and more creatures have reach, although it is always good, just not as good late.


High Crit gets better as you go up, adding 2.25 DPR at epic for an execution axe, but it is great fun at all levels and gives you a chance swing the enounter around with a big hit.


 I always  thought the gouge was a contrived weapon, a halberd is a polearm with an axe and a spear head, so I never thought it was necessary.  I guess they didnt want to go with a spear, axe, polearm weapon.


I certainly can make a case for a spear, heavy blade, possibly reach weapon, I saw it:






Now how fun would that be?        
#3

wazat1

Jun 15, 2011 12:03:51
I suspect brutal is more effective on 2d4 and 2d6 weapons (i.e. scythe, mordenkrad, falchion).
Edit: and by that I mean, letting a player put brutal 2 on a falchion (2d4) by elevating it to superior would be much more effective than on a battleaxe (1d12), especially once that player gets the Vorpal enchantment on it.  So brutal is a property that may have to be limited or unavailable in the crafting rules.  I don't know, I'd need someone to run the math on that to tell me how potent it would be.

The reason versatile is handed out so freely (and appears to be worth less during transitions) is probably that not all characters will use it.  The character has to hold a 1-handed weapon in two hands, instead of getting a dedicated 2-handed weapon or having a shield, free off-hand (swordmage, brawler fighter, etc), and so on.  Plus it doesn't scale at all, so by mid-late heroic most characters don't care nearly as much about versatile as they do about damage die and other properties.  The major benefit to versatile over a dedicated 2-H weapon is the versatility -- the player can keep the same weapon and toggle between 1-handed or 2-handed, depending on whether the +1 damage/attack is worth it to him.

BTW, love those pictures of real polearms.
#4

ceiling90

Jun 15, 2011 13:27:56
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

That's the system I tend to use to make new weapons, and custom weapons. Some of the info is sort of old now, like the Rapier is actually a military weapon, and off-hand on light blades isn't exactly free. It doesn't have the Stout property, and thrown weapons still need more expansion. Personally, I try to shoot for about .5 above or below recommended specs; though if you really want a fancy weapon, you can go about 1 pt over and it shouldn't seem like too much a deal breaker.
#5

wazat1

Jun 15, 2011 14:03:46
Fascinating.  He doesn't really worry much about the brutal property, since it's hard to combine with anything.  You can have a 2d4 non-reach polearm + heavy blade with brutal 2 (and be balanced at 0 points), but maybe it's not a huge deal even with Vorpal.


My reasoning is that 1 and 2 are ignored and rerolled, 3 ends the combo, and 4 adds 4 to the total and rerolls again.  Assuming 1 and 2 are not real die rolls because they're rerolled until they work, the only possible die rolls are 3 (end the combo) and 4 (add and keep going).  Each die has a 50% chance of doing 3 damage, 25% chance of doing 7 damage, 12.5 chance of 11 damage, etc, and you get 2 dice per [W] (and more on criticals if you can make it high-crit with a feat, plus some d12s from vorpal).  That's powerful, but maybe not broken...?  It may not even be better average damage than a vorpal executioner's axe, I'm not sure.  I don't remember the math for calculating the average with a vorpal weapon.


Anyway... He doesn't deal with transitioning from simple to military -- the two categories just have different rules.  As do ranged and double weapons.  And versatile is automatic when your damage die reaches a certain point.

I'll have to give this a more thorough read when I'm home.


Edit: Scratch the above, he thought about that.  Brutal 2 can only be applied to d10 and d12 weapons, do no 2d4 or 2d6 weapons.  I wonder though if you then got a small or large version of your weapon...?  :D
#6

stargazer_dragon

Jun 17, 2011 21:56:29
at one time I had made a similar chat but in the end I found it much easier and more effective to refluff a exsisting weapon, since there is so many difrent weapons out there is very very simply to find almost any reasonable combo you could be after strip th estats and apply it to whatever weapon you want.

For the few combo that don't exsist you may wish to ask why there isn't a weapon using those set of stats are they just ourlandish or maybe there broken.

Just my findings, tends to work for most things in 4th ed, seams 75% of new creations are easaly made by refluffing soemthing thats already out there with maybe some minor twist
#7

wazat1

Jun 17, 2011 22:28:07
True, but it's very useful to have a set of balanced rules for creating a new weapon when you wish to, whether you're a player crafting his personal blade (for roleplay and mechanical reasons), or a DM including a unique weapon in his campaign.  The simple knowledge that, in general, increasing weapon category from simple->military->superior adds a +1, increases the damage die, or adds a property can be quite useful.  A well-developed point buy system like the one mentioned above is really useful for keeping it balanced.

Sometimes there's no substitute for adding a weapon none of the players have ever seen to the campaign, while knowing for certain how its power compares to official weapons (don't want to make something that sucks, nor something that breaks the game).  On the character level, a character who crafts a 2-handed-only version of a normally versatile weapon and gets some real benefits from doing so now has some really cool roleplay perks to his being an expert weaponsmith, instead of it just being empty fluff.  He now has a genuinely unique weapon, seen nowhere else, with which he's kicking butt.  That's a lot more potent than "okay, you modify the longsword into a greatsword, but with a special name".

Or the players might be playing in a campaign that offers weapons that count as both axes and spears and have decent accuracy (but require a proficiency feat to wield).  They have a lot of backstory and are meant to be a treasured find for the players exploring the ancient civilization that forged them.  They need to be worth the feat, and you need to make sure they're in line with other superior weapons.  These rules systems allow players to do just that.  I'm actually surprised WOTC hasn't released a DM's guide for doing this.

So these discussions are important to have.  Refluffing existing material is very useful and often a valid option, but it can be fairly unsatisfying when you've seen a renamed fullblade who knows how many times.  :D  Having the option and the method for adding something distinct and new is very helpful.
#8

stargazer_dragon

Jun 17, 2011 22:51:08

when we were working on a point buy system back when 4th ed was still a lot newer we got most weapons to fit but there was always some that just broke all the rules, will see if maybe I can find any of my old notes see if any of it is relivent here and might help what your after.

#9

wazat1

Jun 17, 2011 22:58:13
Thanks!

Yes, there's several that I've found that break all the rules as well.  Ranged weapons from AV are guilty, as are a few melee weapons like Khopesh.
#10

stargazer_dragon

Jun 18, 2011 0:17:16
OK drudged up the post, was just over a year old so took a bit, will copy and past what I had worked up here then see how it plays in with new content game changes and the idea you have and go from there
_________________Main post________________________________________


The idea is to make a chart for creating weapons via a point buy set up. So instead of picking a weapon u would visualize it then creat it to match what u pictured. The goal is to make the list balenced.


Weapon types -(base weapon types will start as the least useful possible like heavy 2 handed sword)
Base weapons are, +0 cost  1D  Simple weapons, with 4 points to spend to alter it. (1 D stands for l1 damage catagory with 1 D being the lowest or meaning increasing by 1)

Axe:
Bow: Load free, Uses 1 hand damage, range determained by damage
Crossbow: Load minor, Uses 1 hand damage, range determained by damage
Flail:
Hammer:
Heavy Blade:
Light Blade: Requires off-hand property
Mace:
Pick:
Sling: uses Bow rules
Spear: +5 range
Staff: Can't be thrown

cost   Weapon Properties Each property cost 1 point.

  0       Double weapon (reach not allowed)
  1       High Crit:
  1       Off-Hand: (no more then 3D unless it's a double weapon)
  1       Light thrown: 1D max (1 handed only) starting range is 5/10
  1       Heavy thrown: 3D max (1 handed only) starting range is 5/10
  2       Reach: (+1 costs if not a Polearm)
  0       Polearm: (must purchase reach) Can't be used with light blade or light thrown.
  1       Small:
  0       Versatile: (must be one handed)
  1       Brutal 1: D10 or more damage is Brutal 2
  1       Defensive:
  1       increase Proficiency: (max of +3)
  1       increase damage: (costs 1 point per die catagory)
  1       Range +5 (see heavy and light thrown properties)
-1       2 Handed (bows/crossbows get this but no point gain and still use 1 handed damage)
-1       Martial: (does not stack with superior)
-3       Superior: (bows/crossbows only gain +2 for superior)

One-Handed
1d4➛ 1d6 ➛ 1d8 ➛ 1d10 ➛ 1d12 ➛ 2d6 ➛ 2d8 ➛ 2d10

Two-Handed
1d8➛ 2d4 ➛ 1d10 ➛ 1d12 ➛ 2d6 ➛ 2d8 ➛ 2d10


Bow/crossbow range(bows/crossbows ALWAYS use 1 handed damage but are 2 handed weapons)
d4   -- 5/10  (slings and crossbows are 1 handed)
d6   -- 10/20 (slings and crossbows are 1 handed)
d8   -- 15/30
d10 -- 20/40
d12 -- 25/50
Bows max damage at D12 however it is +5 range per damage die increase



range for thrown weapons, besides spear; seam to start at range 5 (spears start at range 10)

Though the trident is balenced with free range but only has range 3/6 perhaps a typo?

ok let me use the spear since it is most common thrown weapon

Javelin +2 profi bonus(2 points), D6 (1 point), 10/20 , heavy thrown (1 point)
4 out of 4 (simple weapon, start+4)

Trident +2profic bonus (2 points), D8(2 points),3/6,heavy thrown(1 points),versatile.
5 out of 5 (4 start +1 military)

Tratnyer +2(2 Points), D8 (2 points) 10/20, heavy thrown (1 Point), Versatile
5 out of 7 (4 start +3 superior)

only difrence betwean the trident and the tratnyer is the range, further the trident range is the only spear heavy thrown with range of anything other then 10/20 that I see. Perhaps a typo? If so why is the tratnyer range so much better, seams like the tratnyer is underbalenced and range is type baced what do you guys think?




________One of the final test when checking against ranged weapon balence_________________

ok here is the ranged weapons if I did them as 1 handed and load being attached to the weapon.

Long bow +2 (2 points), 1D10 (3 Point),
Total 5 out of 5 allowed (4 start +1 for military )

Shortbow +2 (2 points), 1D8 (2points) , Small (1 point)
Total 5 out of 5 allowed (4 start +1 for military )

Crossbow +2 (2 points), 1D8 (2points)
Total 4 out of 4 allowed (4 start, )

Hand Crossbow/sling +2 (2 points), 1D6 (1 point),
Total 3 out of 4 allowed (4 start )

Superior crossbow +3(3 points), 1D10(3 points),
Total 6 out of 7 allowed (4 start +3 for Superior )

Great bow +2(2 points), 1D12(4 points),
Total 6 out of 7 allowed (4 start +3 for Superior )

Repeating crossbow +2(2 points), 1D8 (2 points)
Total 4 out of 4 allowed (4 start )

**conclusion** range is determained by damage & load action is determained by type, this will allow for slightly better weapons then what is in the PHB, as such I am also reduceing the point gained for superior quality by 1 point for ranged weapons, this will bring the weapons in line, the hand crossbow I am adding small quality to since it balences the weapon and makes sence same as the sling.

________________________________________________________________________________

Again bear in mind that the system I made was created around 1 year ago so a lot of balence issues may have ben altered in that time, I tested the system at the time using a variety of difrent weapons and over all the barlence worked at least 90% of the time however I am sure there are still ways to break it but then thats true for all rules

#11

Damon_Tor

Jun 18, 2011 1:25:43
I always  thought the gouge was a contrived weapon, a halberd is a polearm with an axe and a spear head, so I never thought it was necessary.

I've always throught of the gouge as being a shaolin spade, once removed from the teeth-and-bone technology of the Dark Sun universe.
#12

Chimerasame

Jun 18, 2011 11:16:41
IMO it ought to work better if you don't consider brutal a 'property,' but instead just think of it as part of the damage die. Also, don't consider damage dice as part of a set progression, just consider what the average result is when brutal is factored in.

no brutal:

1d4 = 2.5
1d6 = 3.5
1d8 = 4.5
2d4 = 5
1d10 = 5.5
1d12 = 6.5
2d6 = 7
2d8 = 9


brutal 1:

1d4 = 3
1d6 = 4
1d8 = 5
2d4 = 6
1d10 = 6
1d12 = 7
2d6 = 8
2d8 = 10


brutal 2:

1d4 = 3.5
1d6 = 4.5
1d8 = 5.5
2d4 = 7
1d10 = 6.5
1d12 = 7.5
2d6 = 9
2d8 = 11 


Double dice have more 'centered' results, and single dice have more spread out results. Looking at brutal 1, 2d4 and 1d10 are both average 6, but 2d4 is much more reliably going to be close to 6. Reliability is good. On the other hand, 1d10 is going to be two points higher on a crit. Better crit damage is good too. I think this is more or less a wash, except for critfishers. (Personally I'd prefer the d10 since I don't really like d4s. The feel of 'em, the fact that the number isn't easily visible from top-down... I'd use them more if I had octahedrons marked 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4, but then I'd get those confused with my other d8s! I might make an exception if I were going for something vorpal-related, though...)


This can be rearranged in order of average damage:
2.5 = 1d4
3 = 1d4 brutal 1
3.5 = 1d6 ; 1d4 brutal 2
4 = 1d6 brutal 1
4.5 = 1d8 ; 1d6 brutal 2
5 = 2d4 ; 1d8 brutal 1
5.5 = 1d10 ; 1d8 brutal 2
6 = 2d4 brutal 1 ; 1d10 brutal 1
6.5 = 1d12 ; 1d10 brutal 2
7 = 2d6 ; 1d12 brutal 1 ; 2d4 brutal 2
7.5 = 1d12 brutal 2
8 = 2d6 brutal 1
8.5 = none
9 = 2d8 ; 2d6 brutal 2
9.5 = none
10 = 2d8 brutal 1
10.5 = none
11 = 2d8 brutal 2

In general, all else equal, going from simple to military increases the average damage by 1. Going from military to superior increases the average damage by 1 or 1.5. Going from 1h to 2h also seems to increase the average damage by 1 or 1.5.




Now I'm going to do math about vorpalness! Fun!

Show

On the first hand again, 2d4 is much more exploitable with vorpalness. That's a fairly minor concern though; it doesn't come into play really until the very end of the game, and even then the average damage expression isn't THAT big.

We can figure out the average damage with vorpal using algebra. Since each die explodes irrespective of the results of the other dice, it's simple enough to calculate it for each die seperately, and then just double it for expressions like '2d4'.

The vorpal result = (the chance of not rolling max * the average outcome if you don't roll max) + (the chance of rolling max * (the max result + the vorpal result again))

The vorpal result = V
The chance of not rolling max = P
The average outcome if you don't roll max = N
The chance of rolling max = Q
The max result = M

V = PN + Q(M+V)



With no brutal:
Show

1d4
V = 3/4*2 + 1/4(4+V)
V = 1.5 + 1 + V/4
3/4*V = 2.5
V = 3.3333333...


1d6
V = 5/6*3 + 1/6*(6+V)
V = 2.5 + 1 + V/6
5/6*V = 3.5
V = 4.2


1d8
V = 7/8*4 + 1/8*(8+V)
V = 3.5 + 1 + V/8
7/8*V = 4.5
V = 5.142857...


1d10
V = 9/10*5 + 1/10*(10+V)
V = 4.5 + 1 + V/10
9/10*V = 5.5
V = 6.1111...


1d12
V = 11/12*6 + 1/12*(12+V)
V = 5.5 + 1 + V/12
11/12*V = 6.5
V = 7.0909...
#13

dieffenbachj

Jun 18, 2011 11:34:20
Ugh, I have a really elegant system for this sort of thing but no time to type it up to create a PDF to link to (and it would take even longer to write it up for the forum, due to the forum's quirkiness) that proves accurate for all but a handful of weapons.

Hopefully I'll remember to post my system after work.
#14

wazat1

Jun 18, 2011 12:19:27
Chimerasame: Okay, that's a cool way to organize damage.  Brutal can get different effects on low dice when squeezed in by vorpal, and as you say double dice are more centered, so that's something to keep in mind in the averages scale.  I'd want to avoid 2d4 brutal 2, for example, and give the player 1d12 brutal 1 or 2d6 instead.

dieffenbachj: Excellent.  Looking forward to seeing the system.

stargazer_dragon: Thanks for posting!  If I calculated the Spiked Chain properly, it has about 1 point left, which seems to happen about half the time.

I'm left to wonder whether WOTC has *any* defined rules set for weapons, or if they're just eyeballing it every time and we're trying to match a pattern to the chaos.  :D
#15

stargazer_dragon

Jun 18, 2011 16:05:12
often you will run into weapons that don't match up perfectly to any system in the end all your after is a system that gets you close so that when layed side by side the weapons are mostly the same, in the end you would also have to take cost into concideration. If a player build something that used all the points it would cost more and vice versa extra points would allow it to cost less cource in the end cost would be best used by a dm to balence the weapon. If DM thought weapon is stonger then normal then higher then normal price and vice versa would finish balenceing it out.  I think WOTC intentional made some weapons not balenced the the others just to keap the stats from all ending up the same
#16

stargazer_dragon

Jun 18, 2011 16:06:52
if you don't concider brutal a property and just tag it with damage then all weapons will basicaly be brutal which is absalutaly unbalenceing to each there own but to me brutal should remain a more rare ability that still costs something


*Edit - though I do think brutal 1 / brutal 2 should be tied to damage dice as thats what the weapons in the ph have it for the most part. might be weapons that break this but I don't think so but all the same making brutal a property and brutal + tide to Damage dice makes sence for the power to keap it in like after all brutal 1 for a D12 is worthless compared to brutal 1 for a D6 but brutal 2 is perfectly balenced for D12 vrs brutal 1 for D6
#17

Chimerasame

Jun 18, 2011 22:32:33
if you don't concider brutal a property and just tag it with damage then all weapons will basicaly be brutal which is absalutaly unbalenceing to each there own but to me brutal should remain a more rare ability that still costs something


*Edit - though I do think brutal 1 / brutal 2 should be tied to damage dice as thats what the weapons in the ph have it for the most part. might be weapons that break this but I don't think so but all the same making brutal a property and brutal + tide to Damage dice makes sence for the power to keap it in like after all brutal 1 for a D12 is worthless compared to brutal 1 for a D6 but brutal 2 is perfectly balenced for D12 vrs brutal 1 for D6


I'm not sure I follow on either count... tying brutal in with damage doesn't mean that all weapons need to be brutal.

Also, brutal 1 helps a d6 by improving its average damage exactly 0.5, and brutal 1 likewise helps a d12 by improving its average damage exactly 0.5. This is less of a percentile increase in the case of the d12, but does that matter?
#18

stargazer_dragon

Jun 19, 2011 1:11:11


I'm not sure I follow on either count... tying brutal in with damage doesn't mean that all weapons need to be brutal.

Also, brutal 1 helps a d6 by improving its average damage exactly 0.5, and brutal 1 likewise helps a d12 by improving its average damage exactly 0.5. This is less of a percentile increase in the case of the d12, but does that matter?



think I miss read what u posted


IMO it ought to work better if you don't consider brutal a 'property,' but instead just think of it as part of the damage die. Also, don't consider damage dice as part of a set progression, just consider what the average result is when brutal is factored in.



I thought you ment don't concider brutal a property at all meaning not to have it cost anything to add, though rereaqding it you prob ment don't concider  the 1 or 2 part of brutal as part of the property in which case I fully agree.

the brutal weapon property of cource needs to cost soemthing though it being a brutal 1 or brutal 2 weapon should be determained by the actual die rolled which is how I did it in the past when I wrote the point buy system I posted above. anyhows again think I just read your post wrong srry for confusions

This is less of a percentile increase in the case of the d12, but does that matter?



% of damage increased is also the % of times you will even c the property have any effect at all which definatly matters specialy in the case of vorpal weapons. but again this issue is resolved simply by tiing in brutal 1 or brutal 2 to the size od dice rolled larger dice size means brutal 2 lower dice size means brutal 1 D8 could realy go eather way and make sence but don't see any core rules with brutal 2 on a smaller then D10 but may have missed 1 or might be 1 now

#19

stargazer_dragon

Jun 19, 2011 1:25:58

stargazer_dragon: Thanks for posting!  If I calculated the Spiked Chain properly, it has about 1 point left, which seems to happen about half the time.

I'm left to wonder whether WOTC has *any* defined rules set for weapons, or if they're just eyeballing it every time and we're trying to match a pattern to the chaos.  :D



It is ok to have soemthing minorly underpowered as people will still soemtimes use it for fluff reasons. There are just some weapons that are udnerpowered int he core rules liKe the trident that gets shorter range them a few weapons with identical stats.

The system is balenced when checked against the wip and most polearm reach weapons (think the wip and the spiked chain r the only 2 non polearm reach weapons I have found stats for.)

could be good to get a list of underpowered weapons so I could check them against other weapons c if the point buy system I made way back when is missing soemthing or if compared to other made weapons the few that seam underpowered realy are weaker for no real reason.

This could be cause for a DM to add soemthing to thes aparently underpowered weapons

Spiked chain for instence could have brutal added or high crit to make it balenced and I don't think reasonably eathe rproperty would make it inherently overpowered specialy since it required a feat to use the spiked chain whiel there r plenty of better pole arms to use without needing a feat and there r some realy nice polearm feats out there while flail seams less usefull with feat selection.

Just like for me I increase trident range to bring it into line with all the other heavy thrown spears and the Tratnyer for me is a military weapon not a superior since it stat wise realy has nothing better then the trident besides the tridens unusualy short range compared to all other spear heavy thrown weapons.

Lastly nothing wrong with adding a sytem even if the designers don't realy use 1 themselves, just means it is harder for players to make overpowered weapons, underpowered is ok sometimes long as it's minor. I mean how often do players use less then optimal for rp reasons
#20

smbakeresq

Jun 21, 2011 14:31:35
I like the system that was presented.  I think it works for almost all weapons, but hey a little leeway is great.  I have pushed for a superior version of the halberd by making it a d12 or brutal 2, which is the same, so I can use a guan dao.  I just wish you could enter custom weapons in the CB, so it would print right on the cards.


Lets face it, brutal is very fun.  You take a crappy roll and then roll max for it, it might swing the encounter but it will swing your enjoyment all the way.


I do want to fish for opinions here on this.  Lets say you have the weapon I pictured earlier, which looks like a spear, heavy blade, Polearm to me.  Overpowered?  Well I am not sure.  The feat that would make it great, impaling spear, would then conflict with HBO, since you are not making a basic attack with it, you are using an at will.  So what is better, a MBA vs reflex, which hits %15 to %20 more on average, or using an at will that probably causes more damage or an effect?  For a paladin with Valourous Smite, impaling spear is great, it is your at will that counts as a MBA.  But for a Barb, is Howling Strike or Pressing Strike better than an increased chance to hit?  With Impaling Spear would you use Howling Strike on a charge for the extra damage or use a MBA with an almost autohit? 

I dont know, but I will get a better opinion here than anywhere else, so I thought I would ask.



As a side note, I dont know why there is not a reach hammer or reach pick or both, like the Lucerne Hammer.  I understand most of these weapons were used in spear fashion also, but still, they were effective, they must have been they lasted almost 400 years.  There needs to be more superior polearms then just the Great Spear.
#21

wazat1

Jun 21, 2011 14:49:09
I loved the hammer polearm in Vagrant Story.  :D  People would probably scream "UNREALISTIC" at the top of their lungs even if the weapons were historically used, but given that we're playing a fantasy game, even the less realistic stuff isn't all that insulting (I can take a hammer blow to the knee cap and walk it off in 5 minutes.  Bring it!).  Hammer+polearm could have some very potent synergies though, so proceed with caution.

Regarding at-will vs basic attack, I recommend the at-will if you have a specific use for it.  If the at-will pushes or slides, that might let you interrupt an attack, prone the enemy with Polearm Momentum, or get the target into a more favorable position.  If it's invigorating, cleaves into a nearby enemy with minion-killing auto-damage, or has some other effect that's worth sacrificing accuracy, then more power to you.  Heavy Blade Opportuntiy gives you the option, so you use it when it's helpful and stick with a basic attack otherwise.

Any time you put multiple types on a weapon, you need to look at the full gambit of options that gives the player.  HBO and Impaling Spear are only one combination.  Perhaps even more powerful is Axe+Heavy Blade, since this lets the player qualify for a large number of extremely valuable feats, many of which complement each other.  This existing weapon may not be as powerful as Spear+Heavy Blade+Polearm, but a little investigation could probably find some really nice feat/power combos.  Or maybe it's fine.

Though I've yet to see an official weapon with 3 types.  :D


I like brutal for the ability to reroll the 1's on my mordenkrad (if I'm getting my weapons right).  It raises the minimum damage (not just the average), and as you said it's fun turning a crappy roll into a much better one.  It's less interesting on the larger damage dice like d12, though still quite good.
#22

stargazer_dragon

Jun 21, 2011 17:12:25
You realy don't have to worry since most weapon types can only be combined when using a double weapon besides polearm which is more of a quality then a weapon type.

So axe+ polearm+heavy blade would be a double weapon Pole arm heavy blade and polearm axe
#23

wazat1

Jun 21, 2011 17:24:12
True in your system, though the one linked to before (which I also like very much) might allow for it.  I'd have to check again.

Triple weapon types are probably inappropriate from a balance point of view.  Double types are already really good (for example, Khopesh is axe+heavy blade and allows feats from both to be combined on same weapon), and are rare (other than with polearms and double weapons) for a reason.


Back to hammer polearms: I would love to see an official hammer polearm for three reasons: one, the awesome flavor; two, the awesome mechanics of polearm + hammer; and three, the inevitable (and highly entertaining when misguided) purist rage against this new OP/unrealistic weapon.  :D
#24

stargazer_dragon

Jun 24, 2011 16:39:09
polearm hammer not to unrelistic based on movies and the such more then actual life but since D&D lends better to the realism found in movies then in real life that seams a better base for what is feasable, I am sure many of us have played at least 1 video game with a huge hammer that seams longer then the char which could definalty be classified as a pole arm hammer
#25

smbakeresq

Aug 19, 2011 19:22:34
Well, new weapons are coming out so soon we shall see what they have!
#26

wazat1

Aug 19, 2011 19:46:00
True.  Never doubt WOTC's capacity for power creep.  ;)
#27

smbakeresq

Aug 19, 2011 20:31:56
Sure, thats what they do.


I would like to see a Ransuer (spear with stout and defensive properties) a superior halberd (d12 or d10 brutal 2) and a Lucern Hammer (polearm hammer d12 maybe.)


The new armors look ok.