firearms, again

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

lady_ishtar

Feb 18, 2009 17:53:44
Here are my house rules for firearms. Within the setting I’m using (home brewed) I want the firearms to replace crossbows. I want bows to still remain a viable option, but not the only option for a viable ranged damage dealing class.

Origins of Firearms
Firearms originated in the forges of dwarven master craftsmen in an attempt to replace crossbows. While in theory they succeeded, firearms were found to be too dangerous to use in the underground battles due to the noise and smoke they produce. However when cave in was not a threat, firearms worked perfectly. Early firearms (pistol, musket and blunderbuss) were slow to reload, but packed a punch. Later designs improved the firing system to reduce the reload times.
As firearms began spreading beyond the dwarven kingdoms, they were quickly adopted by orcs, who have improved on them in their own way. While simple firearms are fairly common, more advanced versions (military and superior) are still quite rare due to cost and complexity of the firing mechanism, which makes maintenance a big issue.

Incorporating Firearms
Rogues gain proficiency in all simple and martial one-handed firearms.
Any character knows how to maintain all firearms they are proficient with, except for the Sleeve Pistol.
Sleeve Pistol, while easy to use is difficult to maintain. You must be proficient with military firearms to maintain this weapon.
Any character proficient in at least one military or superior firearm is able make ammunition.
Gunpowder can be made by anyone with an Alchemy feat.
Guns are loud and produce a lot of smoke, thus it is impossible to remain hidden after firing one.
Powers that allow multiple attacks in a single round may be performed with single shot one handed firearms if you have enough loaded firearms on your person and have Quickdraw feat.

[b]Simple ranged weapons[/b] <br /> [b]One handed weapons proficiency damage range weight group cost properties[/b]<br /> Sleeve pistol +2 1d6 2/4 1 lbs firearms 50 gp ammo 1, load move, off-hand<br /> Pistol +2 1d8 5/10 3 lbs firearms 20 gp ammo 1, load move, off-hand<br /> [b]Two handed weapons proficiency damage range weight group cost properties[/b]<br /> Musket +2 1d10 12/24 8 lbs firearms 35 gp ammo 1, load move, small<br /> Blunderbuss +2 1d8 5/10 8 lbs firearms 30 gp ammo 1, brutal 1, load move, small<br /> <br /> [b]Military ranged weapons <br /> One handed weapons proficiency damage range weight group cost properties[/b]<br /> Long pistol +3 1d8 10/20 3 lbs firearms 40 gp ammo 1, load minor, off-hand<br /> Twin pistol +2 1d8 8/16 4 lbs firearms 45 gp ammo 2, load minor (1), move (all)<br /> Turret pistol +2 1d6 8/16 5 lbs firearms 50 gp ammo 4, load minor (1), standard (all)<br /> Gunblade +2 1d8(ranged) 8/16 6 lbs firearms 45 gp ammo 1, load minor<br /> 1d6(melee) - special <br /> [b]Two handed weapons proficiency damage range weight group cost properties[/b]<br /> Long musket +3 1d10 20/40 9 lbs firearms 60 gp ammo 1, load minor, small<br /> Twin musket +2 1d10 15/30 9 lbs firearms 55 gp ammo 2, load minor (1)/move (all), small<br /> Orcish arquebus +2 1d12 10/20 10 lbs firearms 45 gp ammo 1, brutal 1, load move<br /> <br /> [b]Superior ranged weapons <br /> One handed weapons proficiency damage range weight group cost properties[/b]<br /> Dueling pistol +3 1d10 10/20 3 lbs firearms 40 gp ammo 1, high crit, load minor, off-hand<br /> Pig iron +2 1d10 5/10 5 lbs firearms 35 gp ammo 1, brutal 2, load move<br /> <br /> [b]Two handed weapons proficiency damage range weight group cost properties[/b]<br /> Dwarven hand cannon +2 2d6 8/16 12 lbs firearms 60 gp ammo 1, brutal 2, load move<br /> Great musket +3 1d12 20/40 12 lbs firearms 70 gp ammo 1, load minor, small
#2

Dark_Stryke

Feb 18, 2009 23:49:21
Nothing wrong with any of this. On a quick inspection, the weapons seem relatively balanced. Don't do the natural one thing. Just don't. Critical failures suck.

Also, for powers that allow multiple attacks, are you following the PHB rules that you can load the weapon as many times as you need to? If so, reloading doesn't really matter, especially for rangers with Twin Strike. If you're not following these rules, then guns become nearly useless for the classes that would want them.
#3

lady_ishtar

Feb 19, 2009 8:46:07
Nothing wrong with any of this. On a quick inspection, the weapons seem relatively balanced. Don't do the natural one thing. Just don't. Critical failures suck.

Also, for powers that allow multiple attacks, are you following the PHB rules that you can load the weapon as many times as you need to? If so, reloading doesn't really matter, especially for rangers with Twin Strike. If you're not following these rules, then guns become nearly useless for the classes that would want them.

yeah, after thinking about it i got rid of nat 1 thing, no need to punish my players any more than syphilitic zombie bears will.
#4

vaalingrade_ashland_02

Feb 19, 2009 9:08:04
If you want these to replace x-bows, load move needs to become load minor across the board.

For magazine/multishot weapons, check out the AV's repeating x-bow; it has load free from the mag and load minor to switch clips. This removes the need to add the new 'ammo' keyword.

The Pig Iron is probably better as a 'magic' variant with a close blast 1 at will.

Finally, if you want these to replace crossbows, classes need to be able to use them. I suggest making thier weapon type 'firearm, crossbow' so they seamlessly integrate. This removes the need for the 'integrating firearms' entry.
#5

lady_ishtar

Feb 19, 2009 10:02:18
If you want these to replace x-bows, load move needs to become load minor across the board.

For magazine/multishot weapons, check out the AV's repeating x-bow; it has load free from the mag and load minor to switch clips. This removes the need to add the new 'ammo' keyword.

The Pig Iron is probably better as a 'magic' variant with a close blast 1 at will.

Finally, if you want these to replace crossbows, classes need to be able to use them. I suggest making thier weapon type 'firearm, crossbow' so they seamlessly integrate. This removes the need for the 'integrating firearms' entry.

most of them are load minor, except for the simple firearms, which will mostly be used by NPCs and as background (this is based on knowing my players)

as for the multishot weapons, i want to stay away from magazine type firearms, as all these are muzzle loaded firearms. im not sure how to show that any better though.

as for integrating firearms, they are just a weapon group. most classes are proficient with whole range of weapons, rogues being the exception, so its a non-issue for the most part.

as for Pig Iron, i agree that a close blast "magic" weapon might be better, but im trying to keep it as a "normal" boom stick.
#6

Emirikol

Feb 22, 2009 12:21:25
Nice write-up BTW, LI

jh
#7

Phobos

Feb 23, 2009 11:42:34
Can you PDF these charts and rules into a sheet that's downloadable so we can grab them and use them easily? Assuming that's an ok thing. Plus, I'd love to track your changes as well.
#8

lady_ishtar

Feb 23, 2009 13:13:52
Can you PDF these charts and rules into a sheet that's downloadable so we can grab them and use them easily? Assuming that's an ok thing. Plus, I'd love to track your changes as well.

ill see what i can do. in he meantime you are free to use these. im actually working on some gun related paragon paths atm, so watch for those too.
#9

wizardmon

Mar 23, 2009 17:59:44
I have a few suggestions:
  • I think that a "crystal powder" might be more appropriate to load the guns with, assuming the magic-infused nature of the default setting. I would actually say not to use anything special, and let guns just "work," but I think a crystalline gun-powder would be a bit more fantastic than a sulfurous gun-powder, if you view gun-powder to be a must.
  • I think that the rule about shots during a power being limited is a little silly, as stated by someone above. I would solve this either by a) removing the blurb completely, allowing reloading during a power whenever b) add a feat allowing such an action (heroic) or c) have a higher amount of ammo that a gun can hold at a given time.
  • If you are looking for additional guns, I would recommend rifles (of any variety).
  • I think that the "gunblade" is a bit misleading, as it makes me think of something Final Fantasy VIII or XIII -esque. What you are describing strikes me more as a bayonet... I recomend either renaming it (and changing it into a blade/axe you can attack to a gun, which would use the gun's enhancement bonus, if any) OR changing it into a weapon that can be used as a fully functional sword or gun. (That would make this fanboy quite happy. )
#10

v3rlon

Mar 24, 2009 6:54:52
nothing wrong with adding firearms to your setting.

That said, from the real world (if you choose to apply such)
1. If you are talking old school muzzle loaders as your names imply, loading as a minor action is more than generous. Measure off the correct amount of powder, pour it in the barrel, add wadding, press the bullet (they don't just fall in), set the primer, then aim and fire. This is 30 seconds work for someone REALLY good at it. Loading a modern cartridge would be on par with a minor action (FYI cartridge rounds were developed around 1848-1850 to give you perspective there).

2. Crit failures may suck, but they are a part of dabbling in gunpowder. They don't have to be 'gun blows up in your face' though. Wet powder, too little powder, too coarse powder or a poorly formed bullet could all lead to the bullet not making it all the way out of the barrel, rendering the firearm useless until the character spends a short rest clearing the jam.

3. Add rules for keeping powder dry and away from fire. Water and fire spells would be a nightmare for someone packing a powder horn.

4. A bayonet is a CRUMMY, CRUMMY, sword. I think you are far to generous with the melee capabilities of the gunblade. Dagger damage and -2 to hit (proficiency makes it 0) sounds closer to fair.

5. I always ruled that bullets could not be magic (too small, too mangled by loading and shooting, etc...).
#11

lady_ishtar

Mar 24, 2009 10:01:12
as far as the reload times, im not interested in realism. if Bob can conjure fire out of his butt every 6 seconds, Rob can reload a muzzle-loader in 6 seconds as well.

as far as crit failure, no biggie. as is you probably wasted a round, and i get to mock you.

as for water and fire it varies. powder is carried in containers able to withstand sort fire, such as from a spell. as long as you are not on fire, or in water for very long time, no big deal.

as for a gunblade, its like those from Final Fantasy, so call me a fanboy. they are still inferior to straight up gun or sword.
#12

gavin_silverstream

Apr 13, 2009 1:51:03
I imagine more of a Clockwork Pistol/Rifle or Turret Pistol/Rifle from Fable 2 if your talking about multi-shot firearms. It seems to make more sense in that game and not far off from what a group of crazy dwarven engineers can come up with.

Clockworks reload using a rotating mechanism to shift a ball/powder pouch into place and re-cocks the fuse.

Turret weapons have rotating barrels that were prepared prior to combat....or not if the player doesn't reload after every encounter.