any help would be greatly appericated
However, 4th Ed does make things a bit easier, since we now have multiple defences. Personally, I'd make firearms target Reflex; dealing about 1d10-2d6 damage. Depending on the country you hail from, they'd either be martial or superior weapons. Fortunately, the accurate range on these weapons is still not going to be vastly superior to a crossbow, so just use that as increments, and have a +2 proficiency bonus.
Black powder bombs would just be timed (1 turn after thrown?) burst 1's that deal 1d6/2d6 fire damage. Look at wizards scorching burst. Again, target Reflex.
Problem with 15th/16th C firearms is that they actually start to get accurate with arquebuses and suchlike. Earlier ones were more intimidation weapons. And a gun penetrates armour without a second thought, which is hard to represent with D&D and its AC.
However, 4th Ed does make things a bit easier, since we now have multiple defences. Personally, I'd make firearms target Reflex; dealing about 1d10-2d6 damage. Depending on the country you hail from, they'd either be martial or superior weapons. Fortunately, the accurate range on these weapons is still not going to be vastly superior to a crossbow, so just use that as increments, and have a +2 proficiency bonus.
Black powder bombs would just be timed (1 turn after thrown?) burst 1's that deal 1d6/2d6 fire damage. Look at wizards scorching burst. Again, target Reflex.
Actually, that conflicts with my understanding of guns/armor.
The quality of the metal used in armour deteriorated as armies became bigger and armour was made thicker, necessitating breeding of larger cavalry horses. If during the 14-15th centuries armour seldom weighed more than 15kgs, than by the late 16th century it weighed 25kg. The increasing weight and thickness of late 16th century armour therefore gave substantial resistance.
In the early years of pistol and arquebuses, firearms were relatively low in velocity. The full suits of armour, or breast plates actually stopped bullets fired from a modest distance. The front breast plates were, in fact, commonly shot as a test. The impact point would often be encircled with engraving to point it out. This was called the "proof". Armour often also bore an insignia of the maker, especially if it was of good quality. Crossbow bolts, if still used, would seldom penetrate good plate, nor would any bullet unless fired from close range.
Granted, this is referring to plate armor, and lesser armors would likely not be effective at all.
Bullet hit metal...bullet not like it...
I mean...a .50 cal machine gun is going to tear a vest up, but consider the weapon in question.
But the soft orbs fired from 16th century era weapons got distorted from AIR....plate armor was effective at stopping them, as well as a thick leather (bullets would get stuck into the material).
Target AC. Definitely make them superior weapons. As for statting them out, make them 1 "step" better than other ranged weapons available. See the Weapon Balance thread for details on that.
Maybe +2; 1d10; load move; for the pistol, and:
+2; 1d12; load move or standard; for the rifle. Ranges as appropriate.
That should be balanced decently for superior weapons.
Rifles, +2 d12 15/30 range 2 handed, Superior Load minor action
Pistols +2 d8 10/20 range 1 handed, Superior. Load minor action
Guns from Coriath fire pure magickal energy manifested from the air around them, this provides two distinct advantages, one no ammunition issues, and secondly they fire slightly faster.
Magi guns have a spinning wheel on the side of the barrel that collects and draws the energy into the weapon made out of various exotic materials and as a result tend to be slightly more ornate than the guns found in Talsidias. The only draw back is a slight decrease in stopping power over all.
Rifles +2 d10 20/40 range, 2 handed Superior, Load free action
Pistols +2 2d4, 15/30 range, 1 handed, Superior Load free action.
A Rogue may use the Talsidias technomagic guns with his or her powers.
A Ranger may use the Magi Guns with his or her Ranger powers.
Copy and pasted from my forum. That's my Fantasy guns.
Scifantasy guns.
also on my forum. http://naegunfael.proboards61.com/index.cgi?board=future My Scifantasy.
Thread Over.
Re-flavored Crossbows.
Thread Over.
I think a superior weapon would be better than simply reflavoring the crossbow.
Though house rulers need to be careful not to make guns too powerful-- even though you pay a feat to use them, they still need to be only one "step" improvement over available ranged weapons.
I think a superior weapon would be better than simply reflavoring the crossbow.
Needless. Guns are simple for the most part. Sure, there should probably be a few military or superior guns, but there should also be a few military or superior crossbows you could re-flavor them from... Or you could just re-flavor bows. That works just as well...
Also, I think it's a mistake to assume that all firearms must be superior weapons. It's rather silly.
I will, however, say I agree with you that people who say firearms should target reflex have no idea what they're talking about.
EDIT: Also, I assume the Handgun is one-handed and the others are two-handed? I would specify that...
EDIT2: To be more clear, all of those load times better be minor or they're not balanced...
Any load times on those, Shedeo?
Also, I think it's a mistake to assume that all firearms must be superior weapons. It's rather silly.
I will, however, say I agree with you that people who say firearms should target reflex have no idea what they're talking about.
EDIT: Also, I assume the Handgun is one-handed and the others are two-handed? I would specify that...
EDIT2: To be more clear, all of those load times better be minor or they're not balanced...
Well bullets are better than arrows. That's a proven fact really. Hence the Superior.
Besides in my guns cases, they are -magical- by default hehe
Well bullets are better than arrows. That's a proven fact really. Hence the Superior.
...That's horrible reasoning. While that may be true in the real world, D&D needs to also consider balance.
Furthermore, to borrow some real-world reasoning myself, guns are pretty simple. Many readily available to the public certainly aren't any more difficult to learn how to use than crossbows... It makes zero sense for all gun to be superior.
The reason for them being superior weapons is more of a mechanical balance rather than a realistic one. They are obviously (mechanically) superior to the longbow and the shortbow, as well as the crossbows. So, therefor, superior weapons on a mechanical balancing point if only because of my reasonings and bonuses I gave them, not because they are historically or what-have-you superior than other ranged weapons.
That's my logic. Does that make sense?
That's my logic. Does that make sense?
Partially but not entirely. They're only mechanically better to begin with because you decided to make them so... I still think it would be a better idea to make them more accessible weapons and weaken them, perhaps by removing that needless High Crit property... That would make much more sense conceptually, as it's much more silly for all guns to be superior than for them to lack High Crit...
...That's horrible reasoning. While that may be true in the real world, D&D needs to also consider balance.
Furthermore, to borrow some real-world reasoning myself, guns are pretty simple. Many readily available to the public certainly aren't any more difficult to learn how to use than crossbows... It makes zero sense for all gun to be superior.
Shedeo pretty much took what I was going to say here. Don't think of Superior as a "harder to use thing" more for mechanical balance purposes. Also, in most settings I think guns would be some what limited in distribution which also makes them a little on the rare side of things like, in the same vein as a spiked chain.
None of that matters of course unless the weapon is worth picking up as a special feat in the scheme of things, which it is so that's why we're thinking they are Superior weapons. (Unless of course you literally do not have bows and the like)
Compare the Longbow and the Long Rifle. They deal the same damage, but the Long Rifle gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls over the Longbow. Could this be offset with a reload time? (Though, originally, the Long Rifle's design in that campaign was more along the lines of a repeat-action rifle than a musket, so it will likely remain mechanically superior in that instance.)
Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not trying to cause forum drama. I'm just looking at things from a different angle, though I agree with you in concept. I just think that if we dumb them down, there's no reason to have them as different weapons from the crossbow. *shrugs*
Shedeo pretty much took what I was going to say here. Don't think of Superior as a "harder to use thing" more for mechanical balance purposes.
Or you could just weaken the guns... Again, for mechanical balance purposes...
Also, in most settings I think guns would be some what limited in distribution which also makes them a little on the rare side of things like, in the same vein as a spiked chain.
I fail to see why this would matter even if it were true...
Well, the only reason that I would stray from removing them from the superior bracket (I have no problems with them lacking the High Crit property) is that then they become superior weapons to bows and crossbows, but are not considered mechanically superior weapons by the rules.
So what?
Compare the Longbow and the Long Rifle. They deal the same damage, but the Long Rifle gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls over the Longbow. Could this be offset with a reload time?
Yes, yes it could be offset with the minor load time.
(Though, originally, the Long Rifle's design in that campaign was more along the lines of a repeat-action rifle than a musket, so it will likely remain mechanically superior in that instance.)
If that thing is going to be load free, then it's overpowered even for a superior weapon and you should remove the high crit property to make it balanced.
Or you could just weaken the guns... Again, for mechanical balance purposes...
I fail to see why this would matter even if it were true...
I could but I don't want reflavored bows. Doesn't fit for my world. *L*
I could but I don't want reflavored bows. Doesn't fit for my world. *L*
That makes no sense. Explain yourself.
EDIT: More specifically, I mean the "Doesn't fit for my world" part. The first sentence is fine if that's your thing, but the second one needs defending...
That makes no sense. Explain yourself.
EDIT: More specifically, I mean the "Doesn't fit for my world" part. The first sentence is fine if that's your thing, but the second one needs defending...
He's already said that guns are magical by default in his campaign. He's elaborated in another thread, I believe. His game world sounds pretty neat.
Going back to whether guns should be superior: I agree it works out just as well if you reflavor the current weapons, and if that's what you want to do in your campaign world, great! We all have different tastes. I can see both sides of the argument, here.
Just to defend making guns superior weapons:
1. It makes it so that not everyone has access to guns, ruining the fantasy feel.
2. It gives firearms a different "feel" from other ranged weapons.
I say, whatever works for your respective campaigns, go for it! Just make sure its balanced. You might want to read through the Weapon Balance thread for ideas.
That's how I look at it. I want firearms to have a definite difference than crossbows. In my campaigns, while I can definitely see firearms as simple weapons, they will remain as superior for the simple fact that they are mechanically superior in my campaigns.
He's already said that guns are magical by default in his campaign. He's elaborated in another thread, I believe. His game world sounds pretty neat.
Going back to whether guns should be superior: I agree it works out just as well if you reflavor the current weapons, and if that's what you want to do in your campaign world, great! We all have different tastes. I can see both sides of the argument, here.
Just to defend making guns superior weapons:
1. It makes it so that not everyone has access to guns, ruining the fantasy feel.
2. It gives firearms a different "feel" from other ranged weapons.
I say, whatever works for your respective campaigns, go for it! Just make sure its balanced. You might want to read through the Weapon Balance thread for ideas.
That makes no sense. Explain yourself.
EDIT: More specifically, I mean the "Doesn't fit for my world" part. The first sentence is fine if that's your thing, but the second one needs defending...
Pretty much what they said.
And Ps thanks squarecircle!
Pretty much what they said.
They didn't say anything.
squarecircle just said to check another thread without giving a link, and Shedeo didn't address the part I was concerned with. I perfectly understood "I don't want to reflavor bows," and that's the part Shedeo explained. I was looking for an explanation on why reflavoring bows doesn't fit your campaign world.
1. It makes it so that not everyone has access to guns, ruining the fantasy feel.
How does having easy access to guns ruin the fantasy feel? That makes no sense.
2. It gives firearms a different "feel" from other ranged weapons.
They must be superior weapons to do this? I mean, that's certainly not how we distinguish axes from hammers...
"Yes, you read that right. This is the thread about Guns in Talsidias and in Coriath. Guns in Talsidias are powered, by a special magicked powder when discharged the weapon fires a projectile at a ludicrous rate of speed that deals huge amounts of damage upon a successful hit. Guns are on a roughly renaissance level of technology give or take a few years. Guns contrary to their real life analogues in this period do not become unable to fire if the powder gets wet." To quote myself.
I said that when copy and pasting my guns from my forum. Hope that helps.
Guns don't exist as anything below a +1 Magic Firearm (aka re-flavored cross/bow). This keeps them rare and inaccessible to common folk and also holds their inherently magical flavor intact without ever requiring any new or overly complex home brewed mechanics at all.
The other thing I pondered was basically making them crossbows with High Crit, but I wasn't sure what kind of mechanical ramifications a High Crit ranged weapon would have.
I like them as exotic weapons of sorts. Also when that comes up then you have the issue of guns and crossbows being equal which they shouldn't be in my opinion.
Well, making them all +1 Magic at minimum solves both of your problems.
1) It makes them rare and exotic, inaccessible to common folk.
2) It makes them better than bows and crossbows. You need to make a bow or crossbow magical before it becomes equal to a regular firearm.
The other thing I pondered was basically making them crossbows with High Crit, but I wasn't sure what kind of mechanical ramifications a High Crit ranged weapon would have.
I don't get this. Many home brew firearms I've seen seem to like High Crit for some reason. Why does everybody go with High Crit? I'm not seeing the line of reasoning or logic that leads everybody over to that property. Could somebody explain this trend to me...
Well, making them all +1 Magic at minimum solves both of your problems.
1) It makes them rare and exotic, inaccessible to common folk.
2) It makes them better than bows and crossbows. You need to make a bow or crossbow magical before it becomes equal to a regular firearm.
I don't get this. Many home brew firearms I've seen seem to like High Crit for some reason. Why does everybody go with High Crit? I'm not seeing the line of reasoning or logic that leads everybody over to that property. Could somebody explain this trend to me...
But then when you do have magical bows they become equal all of the sudden. :P So you end up at square one again. I don't want that. I just want a ranged superior weapon, that fits with my techa fantasy (I can't quite call it steam punk) this is the world with Fantasy Mechs, Airships and the like as well. So for me having a "reflavored solution" just doesn't sit too well.
I think it's that whole "BOOM HEADSHOT" appeal High Crit seems to have. or "Ouch well there goes that hand" (note any argument against High Crit on a gun pretty much can be applied to any other weapon that has High Crit aside from possible mechanical balance issues)
Fill with Water, load with shot, cast heat metal:
range: 30,60 (better than gunpowder)
SteamPistol
Categories: Firearm, One-Handed.
Proficiency Bonus:0
Damage: 1d8.
Range: 30/60.
Properties:-.
Pistols and muskets are simple, Revolvers and rifles are military. Rogues are proficient in pistols and revolvers. Pistols and revolvers are both one handed, muskets and rifles are two handed. Additionally muskets and rifles have the longgun keyword, which allows you to fix a bayonet (spear) to them.
Musket : +2/1d8 15/30 Firearm : Longgun, load minor, high crit
Pistol : +2/1d6 5/10 Firearm : load minor, versatile, high crit
Revolver : +3/1d6 5/10 Firearm : Load free, versatile, high crit
Rifle : +3/1d10 20/40 Firearm: Longgun, load minor, high crit
But then when you do have magical bows they become equal all of the sudden. :P
Yes, a magically enhanced bow, superior to 99% of the other bows out there and certainly all of the bows that exist in our world, becomes equal to an absolutely average firearm. I fail to see the problem with this.
What, do you think a +1 Magic Firearm should be superior to a +6 Perfect Hunter's Crossbow? Because that's just going to cause balance problems. :P
So for me having a "reflavored solution" just doesn't sit too well.
Well sure, if you're not doing it right. :D
Mine's simpler for what I want :P
Cpt Micha, as far as balance issues go, treating firearms the same as current available military ranged weapons except with the high crit property is balanced (imho) so long as you treat them as superior weapons. High crit is roughly a "one-step" increase in power.
Personally I understand the want to give firearms the high crit property. I talk about it a little bit in my blog, linked in my sig. Here is a direct link where I talk about firearms in tabletop RPGs: http://scrpjournal.blogspot.com/2008/08/problem-with-firearms.html
I don't want to post the relevant info here because I want to make sure it remains my intellectual property. :/
Except then you have the issue of magically enhanced guns.
What's the issue, exactly? Do you not let guns be magically enhanced? :P
ok here is a simple idea to this,
break down a gun mechanically and its a trigger, a form of propulsion, ammunition and path of travel for ammunition.
in 3.x in forgotten realsm gnomes had an impliment called a dart thruster that was a spring loaded dart..umm..thruster it was shaped similar to a modern 9mm of equal size and weight, had a 3 round load and took a move action to reload. damage was only 1d4 i believe
actually i'll quote the section
Dart thruster 40 gp 1d4 19–20/
What's the issue, exactly? Do you not let guns be magically enhanced? :P
Then bows and the like are dead even with the gun. A +2 gun is equal to a +2 Bow or cross bow. Something seems fishy there for my tastes.
I'm working on something similar for a Steampunk world with my group, might I suggest a variety of reload times, say for breach loaders, muzzle loaders and, should some savy artificer get up to no good hijinks probably well in your worlds future, clip fed firearms or revolvers, say minor each shot for breach, move for muzzle, and minor or move every six or so for revolvers and clip situations should that be an issue and depending on the availability of speed loaders.
Im also trying to develop a steam punk system. For mine all fire arms are superior weapons. The basic flint lock targets ref defense with a +2 wp bonus, however devices such as scopes and what not can increase this. Other fire arms can get as high as a +4 bonus, but all have long reload times, are expensive, and on a roll of a one have a chance of having a malfunction.
All firearms are Superior. All of the following are Firearms until noted otherwise. Why are they superior when they are as easy to use as a crossbow? Because you've never seen a boomstick before, and it's going to scare the snot out of you when it spews fire, thunder claps, and it recoils back and nearly hits you in the head.
Muzzle Loading
Light +2 1d6 10/20 30gp 5lbs Load Minor High-Crit
Heavy +2 1d8 15/30 35gp 14lbs 2H Load Minor High-Crit
Metallic Case
Light +2 1d6 10/20 40gp 4lbs Load Minor High-Crit
Heavy +2 2d4 15/30 45gp 7lbs 2H Load Minor High-Crit
Automatic
Light +2 1d8 15/30 50gp 2lbs Load Free High-Crit
Heavy +2 1d10 20/40 60gp 5lbs 2H Load Free High-Crit
Also, as a result of guns, we get the following, and it's a Military weapon:
Bayonet +2 1d6 - 10gp 2lb Light Blade Reach1
1 When attached to a heavy firearm.
Ammunition is 1 gold for 20 shots, but I only let people buy muzzle loading ammunition. I make them utilize the enchant magic item ritual as a creation process for ammo for the other two, with Arcana checks for if they "know the recipe" as it were.
Modern Bulletproof Vest have metal plates in them for a reason...
Bullet hit metal...bullet not like it...
I mean...a .50 cal machine gun is going to tear a vest up, but consider the weapon in question.
Mainly for knife & force absorbtion. I mean, a knife won't be stopped by kevlar even a little bit, but it does work against bullets, however, even if it stops it, the force of it is still roughly equivalent to being hit in the torso with a sledgehammer by a strong person, hence the metal plates, also known as 'terror plates', are put on under the kevlar vest.
-->End Argument Here Please<--
Then bows and the like are dead even with the gun.
This is simply untrue. A magically enhanced, superior bow is even with a common, average gun. In general, the gun is still superior to the bow. There needs to be some point where the gun and the bow are even or else what you're proposing is that we make all guns be superior to even a +6 Perfect Hunter's Longbow, and at that point guns become inaccessible except to the gods themselves. I think we all agree that's a bad idea. ;)
A +2 gun is equal to a +2 Bow or cross bow. Something seems fishy there for my tastes.
What exactly is it that's fishy? :P
I don't understand your concern; firearms are still superior to (cross)bows, and that's exactly what you wanted, isn't it?
Basically take a firearm except when you pull the trigger, it creates a magical charge which launches the shot.
Now, this would be a magical weapon, yes, but its not a +1 weapon (well, it could be.) Its ammunition isn't bestowed any magical benefit, its machinations are just magical. So in that sense, could there not be a separate, superior weapon?
Even if it was a mundane firearm, there doesn't have to be a separate mechanic, but there well enough could be. In this way, a +1 Bow and a +1 Gun would be of equal price, but different power (slightly) but one requires more training than the other.
Flintlock Pistol
Prof +3
Damage 2d8
Range 20/40
Price 25 gp
Weight 2 lb.
Group Firearm
Load short rest
Flintlock Rifle
Prof +3
Damage 2d10
Range 25/50
Price 30 gp
Weight 9 lb.
Group Firearm
Load short rest
Since there's a 4E Firearms thread, I thought this would be a good place to mention these, and gain opinions on their damage/balance.
Here's my line of thought for design:
Since a flintlock could take a professional soldier 20 seconds to reload or so, that's 3 or 4 rounds. Full rounds. I don't want my players sitting around doing nothing but reloading--not that they would, for 2d8 damage--so I made it a short rest.
Since a short rest reload time makes using a flintlock an encounter ability, the damage should be significant. So, I amped up the average damage by 50%, since encounter powers are more damaging than at-will--the limited damages listed on page 42 of the DMG are about 50% more damaging than the normals.
I'm trying to wrap my brain around the advantages and disadvantages of this system. Any thoughts?
Though if he's willing to a) get the feat to get a proficiency bonus, b) use a nonmagic weapon or have his big magic weapon be an encounter weapon, c) have to drop his weapon/draw the rifle before using it, d) only have one shot or the attack is wasted, e) not have used his gun in the battle, and and f) not be able to do area attacks, is x2 damage a worthy compromise?
Under normal conditions, I'd say yes. But I see your point with the min-maxing of the rifle... In fact, I know which player would do that.
*grumble* Greater Psionic Weapon, dissolving weapon, sneak attack, and Greater Powerful Charge... *grumble*
Military Weapons-
Two-handed
Weapon Prof Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Bayonet +2 1d6 - 5 gp 2 lb Spear* -
Superior Weapons
One-Handed
Weapon Prof. Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Derringer** +2 1d10 3/6 30gp ½lb. Firearm Load standard, Off-hand
Pistol +2 2d6 5/10 100gp 3lb. Firearm Load standard, Off-Hand
Two-handed
Weapon Prof Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Carbine: +2, 2d6, 10/20, 75gp, 8lb, Firearm, Load standard, Small
Musket; +2, 2d6, 15/30, 100gp, 9lb, Firearm, Load standard
Longrifle +2 2d6 20/40 150gp 11lb, Firearm, Load standard+move
Blunderbuss +3 2d6 5/10 100gp 10lb Firearm, Load standard
Improvised Weapons-
Pistol whip- one-handed- 1d4
Rifle Butt- two-handed- 1d6
*When attached to a carbine, rifle, long rifle, or blunderbuss. Treat as light blade when held in hand.
**A derringer can be concealed with a successful thievery check (PHB 189)