Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tehsquirrely Aug 14, 2009 19:56:47	Some friends and I were talking about playing centaurs the other day and I got inspired to write this up. It's a first pass, but I don't think it's half bad. I would like some feedback on it howevever. Centaur Racial Traits Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom Size: Large (see below though) Speed: 7 Vision: Low-Light Languages: Common, Elven Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Nature Slight Build: Centaurs must wield weapons as a medium creature despite their size. Fey Origin: See elf description Encumbered Speed: See dwarf description Heavy Armor Inefficiency: Centaurs wearing heavy armor take a -1 penalty to AC Forest Runner: While running Centaurs can ignore difficult terrain. Natural Sprinter: Centaurs do not grant combat advantage while running. Quick Kick: Centaurs can use Quick Kick as an encounter power. Quick Kick Encounter power Immediate Reaction Trigger: An enemy moves into a space that flanks you. Target: The triggering enemy. Attack: Str, dex, or con +2 vs. reflex. At level 11 improve this to str, dex or con +4 and at level 21 improve this to str, dex, or con +6. Hit: 1d6 + str and you push the traget a number of squares equal to your con modifier or knock it prone. At level 21 2d6 + str. Special: When you create your character choose strength dexterity or constitution and use that for the attacking stat, you cannot change this choice once it has been made. Racial Feats Heroic Tier Solid Kicker Prerequisites: Centaur, Str 13 When you hit a target with your Quick Kick power you can push it one square and knock it prone. Centaur Trample Prerequisites: Centaur, Dex 13 When you make a charge attack and hit you may use Quick Kick as a free action ignoring it’s normal requirements. The target must be the same as the target you charged. Large Hoofs Prerequisites: Centaur Your Quick kick power does d8s instead of d6s. Centaur War Training Prerequisites: Centaur You gain proficiency with all bows and heavy blades. In addition you gain a +2 feat bonus to damage with bows. Paragon Tier Desperate Buck Prerequisites: Centaur, str 15 The first time you become bloodied during an encounter you may use your Quick Kick power against the enemy the bloodied you, regardless of whether or not you have already used it and without expending the power. Alternatively if you have already used Quick Kick this encounter you can use it once more during the encounter. Battle Strider Prerequisites: Centaur, con 15, wis 13, Centaur War Training feat You no longer take a -5 penalty for attack rolls while running. In addition you gain a +1 bonus to speed when you run or charge. If you have any other ideas for feats, especially class related ones, please let me know! I'd like to make this race as balanced as possible, and while I realize that it will never be perfect as a large race, I feel that I don't want to shoe horn it into being medium and that I've done an okay job to start with balancing down a large race. edit: Oh man I can't believe I spelled the title wrong, woops.:P
#2 generalhenry Aug 14, 2009 20:07:43	not a bad first pass I personally think the issue of taking up 4 squares makes it too impractical for any urban or dungeon settings, but balance wise you seam to have it about right
#3 tehsquirrely Aug 14, 2009 20:10:29	not a bad first pass I personally think the issue of taking up 4 squares makes it too impractical for any urban or dungeon settings, but balance wise you seam to have it about right That's my biggest issue as well. I just don't feel that making it simply medium really remadies this though as it makes the centaur suddenly more like a halfling/pony instead of a human/horse mix. It's really a niche race though, and I think wilderness campaigns are a big part of that niche.
#4 foe_bane Aug 14, 2009 21:27:48	I'm liking this very well, and as for sizing what I think would work best is be two squares long and one wide. But flanking still working with opposing corners as if they were a regular one or four squares. Also, I think that they should be able to fit into a one square passage, but count as squeezing while in that position.
#5 Crimson_Concerto Aug 15, 2009 0:21:42	Size: Large This is a terrible idea. Large size does not work on a PC race. Nothing you can do will make it work. Make them Medium and save everybody the trouble. Slight Build: Centaurs must wield weapons as a medium creature despite their size. I hope you don't think this solves all of the problems with large size, because weapon size really isn't even the half of it. Heavy Armor Inefficiency: Centaurs wearing heavy armor take a -1 penalty to AC Racial penalties are bad. No exceptions. I just don't feel that making it simply medium really remadies this though as it makes the centaur suddenly more like a halfling/pony instead of a human/horse mix. Medium centaurs aren't any more half-pony than Large centaurs are half-giant. If you want your centaur to have a medium-size human torso, medium size is the way to go. Putting a medium size human torso on a large size horse body is actually not what you see in most classic or modern artwork of centaurs because it looks so awkward and disproportional. ...as for sizing what I think would work best is be two squares long and one wide. A) 4E doesn't do large long and large tall when it comes to space anymore, only reach. B) That doesn't fix all of the problems with large size anyways.
#6 tehsquirrely Aug 15, 2009 1:33:59	Crimson, while I appreciate that you care so much about how large unbalances the game I'm making this race for my group of friends. Not for you, not for the community, not for everyday play. It doesn't have to be perfect, and I expect it not to be. I'm aware of the limitations and benefits that come with large size and feel that anyone I know who DMs would be willing to work with those limitations and benefits so we can all have fun with playing with a character in the group who's out of the ordinary. I just want to get some second opinions about the race's balance outside of large size. edit: Although at first I thought foe banes idea wouldn't work simply due to diagonals now that I've thought about it a bit perhaps using something like the chariot rules from the AV, but using the "front" part of the chariot for attack space origin, might work. I'd have to read over those rules again.
#7 Crimson_Concerto Aug 15, 2009 2:40:36	You asked, so I told you. :P And even outside of Large size, the Heavy Armor Inefficiency is still out of place and inappropriate. It should be removed. I don't know if that was an intentional attempt to fix the complex issue of Encumbered Speed, but if it was, a penalty isn't the way to do it. Instead, I would give them some bonus when not wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load... Not a bonus to AC, of course, but I'm just saying...
#8 Qube Aug 15, 2009 2:58:49	not bad at all ... (for a second pass, I'dd use some layouting ...) Desperate Buck Prerequisites: Centaur, str 15 The first time you become bloodied during an encounter you may use your Quick Kick power against the enemy the bloodied you, regardless of whether or not you have already used it and without expending the power. Alternatively if you have already used Quick Kick this encounter you can use it once more during the encounter. what if the attack was ranged? Battle Strider Prerequisites: Centaur, con 15, wis 13, Centaur War Training feat You no longer take a -5 penalty for attack rolls while running. In addition you gain a +1 bonus to speed when you run or charge. this one is too incorrect, I think ... running is moving faster then you normally can, but with penalties. If you strip off the penalties, the PC will be running all the time (and thus having higher speed, but not the "moving faster then you normally can, but with penalties." option). Maybe a paragon feat that increases speed with 1 and run/charge speed with and additional 1
#9 tehsquirrely Aug 15, 2009 4:15:54	not bad at all ... (for a second pass, I'dd use some layouting ...) what if the attack was ranged? this one is too incorrect, I think ... running is moving faster then you normally can, but with penalties. If you strip off the penalties, the PC will be running all the time (and thus having higher speed, but not the "moving faster then you normally can, but with penalties." option). Maybe a paragon feat that increases speed with 1 and run/charge speed with and additional 1 1. That's what the second sentance is for, it lets you simply recharge the power without using it. I should pry clean up the wording a little. 2. It's supposed to be a strong feat, that's why it has alot of prerequisites. More importantly though it's for the theme of centaur. Even if one can run without penalty that doesn't mean it's always the prefered method of travel, you still provoke OAs and with your large size it makes it harder to maneuver around enemies. Besides elves have a similar feat except that it only applies to ranged penalties but the centaur is more themed to be a hybrid melee/ranged race. It also provides the centaur with a substantial speed increase in paragon to make them feel faster without actually increasing their speed to an unreasonable amount. Crimson, you're probably right about heavy armor inafeciancy. It was kind of a last minute idea to encourage centaurs to wear light armor, but perhaps a minor bonus while wearing light armor would be a better idea.
#10 Krusk Aug 15, 2009 13:12:04	What if instead of a penalty for heavy armor, you copy the elf and grant free armor prof. (elves get swords IIRC?). Centaur's get hide armor for free. (or leather, or both) I don't see too much wrong with the idea of 1X2, but I think it would honestly be better to say they are a very large medium creature, ala goliath.