Fixing "Escaping a Grab" - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fixing "Escaping a Grab"

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Bandikoot
May 10, 2010 16:41:15 Escaping a Grab: The designers appear to have overlooked the scaling problem inherent in setting up the system to function as a skill vs. a defense. Skills scale at 1/2 level while defenses scale at level. This means it gets functionally harder and harder to escape from a grab until eventually escape attempts require a critical success in order to succeed.

   Skills: base (ability score) + race + 5 (optional training) + 15 (1/2 level) + 3 (optional feats) +1 (ability score increases) + 3 (optional ability score increases) - 1/-2/-3/-4 (armor/shield penalties) + item bonuses

   Defenses: base 10 + class + race + ability scores + 15 (1/2 level) + 2 (feats) + 4 (optional abilty score increases) + 6 (enhancement bonuses) + item bonuses + misc bonuses (paragon paths)

   As you can see, the grab system has a much wider degree of fluctuations than all of the other portions of combat. A character that is trained in acrobatics/athletics and actually uses the ability tied to the skill so that it gets upgraded, is +9 better at escaping than a character that doesn't. Most characters (that I've seen anyway) will only gain a skill feat if they take jack of all trades, but almost everyone takes some form of the paragon and epic defense feats.

Fixes:
   First, some numbers to start. The base number could be as low as -5 (heavy plate w/shield; 8 or 9 score in str or dex) or as high as +5 (20 ability score). We'll also say that a solid starting defense (depending on ability score generation method of course) ranges from 14 to 17ish. Our worst case dude is already in trouble, though even a "normal" character would take several rounds to get away from the higher defense example.

   1)Enhancement bonus: Skills need to gain an enhancement bonus equal to neck slot items for the purpose of escaping a grab.
   Yields skills +22 by level 30
   Yields defenses +29 by level 30
   The Good: The gap is narrowed.
   The Bad: Physically "weak" classes will still find themselves unable to escape from grabs at higher levels.

   2) Armor/shield penalties: I am thinking about simply ignoring these. While you could argue that heavy armor makes a charater less mobile and therefore easier to hold on to, you could also argue that its very nature also makes it easier to excape certain situations. Imagine trying to bear hug a paladin that had just oiled his plate armor, or a monster biting down on plate armor vs. leather. This prevents certain classes from getting the shaft really bad, such as charisma based paladins.

   At this point, I think that any class which is increasing str or dex as part of their leveling up process is basically ok. They will get +3 from that, started with a decent score in one of the two, and are likely to have trained in either athletics or acrobatics at 1st level. Say they have a base of +4 (roll 10-13 to escape). They train (roll 5-8) but as they level the benefits of training get eaten away by that small gap that still exists in the scaling until they end up at roll 9-12 to escape a standard creature. (Solos like Orcus can have defenses in the low 50s, which will still give them a challenge to escape).

   Your normal characters still have problems. Starting from +1 (ability score, no penalties) at level 30 their skills end up at +23 vs. 43 to 46ish. They still can't escape from normal creatures, much less solo ones. From here though, I can't see any general change that would give them a reasonable chance to escape without making it way too easy for the trained characters. Is the RAW escape system simply broken?

   Perhaps escape should be changed to scale with the character's attack bonus, such as:

Move action

Make an "attack" vs. Ref or "attack" vs. Fort where "attack" is your class' prime ability. Do not add in any proficiency bonus from weapons, but do keep all enhancement and feat bonuses (otherwise it does not scale correctly). On a hit, you are able to escape from the target's grasp and may slide one square as part of the escape.
#2
brashnir
May 10, 2010 18:43:38 Fix: Roll a saving throw.

This fixes the problems of weak classes not being able to escape, plus it fixes the problem that skills don't really belong in combat to begin with, since as you've noted, they don't scale by the same method as combat abilities.
#3
urpriest
May 10, 2010 20:50:33 Saving throws for grabs make a large number of feats, powers, etc. either useless or (if you allow the penalties they added to escape attempts to add to saves instead) overpowered.
#4
babyj
May 10, 2010 23:16:47 @ Bandicoot: I think the fix should be use the better of two stats, this case Str and Dex, but allow the same system you speak of for the rest of it. That is, using the part of it that specifies feat and enhancement bonuses still apply. But using the prime ability should not vary so much as to be a nonphysical trait except through a feat. Think of it like the feats that give you the freedom to use a non standard attribute for attacks of a physical nature, but they apply to melee basic attack ONLY. Those are restrictive so that the feat is not OP, so allowing that sort of freedom should be broken down into feats per attribute as well in the same way. Like rewrite those feats to be:

Feat
Melee Training (Charisma): You use Charisma in place of Strength for attack and damage with melee basic attack and grabs.

Feat
Grapple Training (Constitution): You may use your Constitution score in place of your Strength score for the purpose of grapple and escape checks.

Grapple Focus: You gain a +1 feat bonus to grapple checks.

etc

New Formula for Grapples:
d20 + class (if they get a bonus to Fort or Ref they get the higher of the two here) + race (if they get a bonus to Fort or Ref they get the higher of the two here) + ability scores (use higher of Str or Dex) + 15 (1/2 level) + 2 (feats) + 4 (optional abilty score increases) + 6 (enhancement bonuses) + item bonuses (write up some spiked wristbands of the wrestler perhaps) + misc bonuses (paragon paths; think Pit Fighter-ish, or Drunken Boxer paragons)

Formula for Defenses:
base + all of the above
#5
Bandikoot
May 11, 2010 0:14:48 On the surface I like your suggestion babyj, but I always like to throw some numbers in and see how it works.

1st level human prescient bard (he's gonna be about worst case)

d20 + 1 (class) + 1 (race) + 0 (ability score) = +2

30th level same dude

d20 + 1 (class) + 1 (race) + 1 (ability score*) + 15 (1/2 lvl) + 6 (enhancement) +2 (feats) = +26

* he only gets the lvl 11 and 21 to str/dex

He's in really bad shape, but if he takes your modified melee training feat, he works like the fighter below. The only thing I dislike about that is it starts to feel like a feat tax because he has to take it in order to escape a grab. On the other hand, it would fit the idea of non-martial classes having to do a little bit extra in order to accomplish physical tasks.

1st level half-orc tempest fighter

d20 + 2 (class) + 0 (race) + 4 (ability score) = +6

30th level same dude

d20 + 2 (class) + 0 (race) + 8 (ability score) + 15 (1/2 level) + 6 (enhancement) +2 (feats) = +33

Throw in an item or misc bonus and he's kept up with the level progression of defenses. Excellent, now WotC just needs to erratta escaping from a grab. Thanks a lot.
#6
pluisjen
May 11, 2010 4:47:59 Here's another one that might work real easy:

Each side rolls a d20, and adds their Fortitude or Reflex defense (the side that tries to escape chooses). If your result is higher then his, you break free.

Now it automatically scales, weak people also have at least a chance of breaking free, armor penalties don't apply, and you don't need to introduce any new items or strange rules.
#7
Bandikoot
May 11, 2010 12:02:17 As I see it there are some pros and cons to your suggestion:
Pro - It's easy. The person in my group that uses his fingers to add could handle it.
      - Less math for me; I won't have to do the much simpler monster escape calculations.

Con - It's an opposed roll, which is something that 4E attempted to eliminate and a design philosophy I totally agree with.

I think I might still give it a try and see how it works out.
#8
pluisjen
May 11, 2010 12:09:10 Good points about opposed rolls.

You could always deal with that by doing "1d20 + escaper vs grabber + 10".
#9
stargazer_dragon
May 12, 2010 6:38:23 the point I have steadily heard so far is that they scale at 1/2 level difrently, couldn't you then simply just use skill + 1/2 lv vrs fort or reflex?? Not done the math but seams like ti would fix the math issue with little to no other effect
#10
Bandikoot
May 12, 2010 11:49:21 No, that would actually push things in the opposite direction where it is too easy to escape a grab. Monster and PC grab attacks would become useless. You see, the reason PCs get ability score increases, enhancement bonuses, math feats, etc is to keep up with monster scaling. If you started at a PC's initial stat and then added level you would be ok, but throw in ability score increases at later levels, feats, and training (the stuff you get RAW) and it grows too quickly.
#11
stargazer_dragon
May 12, 2010 14:11:27
after a lot of math I have a better Idea of the problem, at lvl 11 the issue only apears with non optimised chars at lvl 30 even a maxamised optimised char has a hard time escaping.

Perhaps +3 to athletics/acrobatics per teir for exscape rolls?

At lvl 30 with optimised stats and just skill focus athletics this roll would be

Optomised char (18 base stat, all ups to str, and racial bonus is stat + trained and focused in skill)

d20+38
vrs
38-48 (fort/reflex)

so it would maintain usefull, with the harder roll being 12

a non optimised char (10 base stat, untrained, no feats, no stat upgrades, and no racial bonus)

D20+22
   VRS
38-48

becomes inpossible, however if we simply add training
+27 then add skill focus
+30
then a unoptomised char can still escape on a roll of 18.

A super optimised char could take a lot of feats to almost always exscape that that fits belnce.

**seams like adding +3 to escape rolls per teir should fix the issue but I could be missing a lot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Bandikoot May 10, 2010 16:41:15	Escaping a Grab: The designers appear to have overlooked the scaling problem inherent in setting up the system to function as a skill vs. a defense. Skills scale at 1/2 level while defenses scale at level. This means it gets functionally harder and harder to escape from a grab until eventually escape attempts require a critical success in order to succeed. Skills: base (ability score) + race + 5 (optional training) + 15 (1/2 level) + 3 (optional feats) +1 (ability score increases) + 3 (optional ability score increases) - 1/-2/-3/-4 (armor/shield penalties) + item bonuses Defenses: base 10 + class + race + ability scores + 15 (1/2 level) + 2 (feats) + 4 (optional abilty score increases) + 6 (enhancement bonuses) + item bonuses + misc bonuses (paragon paths) As you can see, the grab system has a much wider degree of fluctuations than all of the other portions of combat. A character that is trained in acrobatics/athletics and actually uses the ability tied to the skill so that it gets upgraded, is +9 better at escaping than a character that doesn't. Most characters (that I've seen anyway) will only gain a skill feat if they take jack of all trades, but almost everyone takes some form of the paragon and epic defense feats. Fixes: First, some numbers to start. The base number could be as low as -5 (heavy plate w/shield; 8 or 9 score in str or dex) or as high as +5 (20 ability score). We'll also say that a solid starting defense (depending on ability score generation method of course) ranges from 14 to 17ish. Our worst case dude is already in trouble, though even a "normal" character would take several rounds to get away from the higher defense example. 1)Enhancement bonus: Skills need to gain an enhancement bonus equal to neck slot items for the purpose of escaping a grab. Yields skills +22 by level 30 Yields defenses +29 by level 30 The Good: The gap is narrowed. The Bad: Physically "weak" classes will still find themselves unable to escape from grabs at higher levels. 2) Armor/shield penalties: I am thinking about simply ignoring these. While you could argue that heavy armor makes a charater less mobile and therefore easier to hold on to, you could also argue that its very nature also makes it easier to excape certain situations. Imagine trying to bear hug a paladin that had just oiled his plate armor, or a monster biting down on plate armor vs. leather. This prevents certain classes from getting the shaft really bad, such as charisma based paladins. At this point, I think that any class which is increasing str or dex as part of their leveling up process is basically ok. They will get +3 from that, started with a decent score in one of the two, and are likely to have trained in either athletics or acrobatics at 1st level. Say they have a base of +4 (roll 10-13 to escape). They train (roll 5-8) but as they level the benefits of training get eaten away by that small gap that still exists in the scaling until they end up at roll 9-12 to escape a standard creature. (Solos like Orcus can have defenses in the low 50s, which will still give them a challenge to escape). Your normal characters still have problems. Starting from +1 (ability score, no penalties) at level 30 their skills end up at +23 vs. 43 to 46ish. They still can't escape from normal creatures, much less solo ones. From here though, I can't see any general change that would give them a reasonable chance to escape without making it way too easy for the trained characters. Is the RAW escape system simply broken? Perhaps escape should be changed to scale with the character's attack bonus, such as: Move action Make an "attack" vs. Ref or "attack" vs. Fort where "attack" is your class' prime ability. Do not add in any proficiency bonus from weapons, but do keep all enhancement and feat bonuses (otherwise it does not scale correctly). On a hit, you are able to escape from the target's grasp and may slide one square as part of the escape.
#2 brashnir May 10, 2010 18:43:38	Fix: Roll a saving throw. This fixes the problems of weak classes not being able to escape, plus it fixes the problem that skills don't really belong in combat to begin with, since as you've noted, they don't scale by the same method as combat abilities.
#3 urpriest May 10, 2010 20:50:33	Saving throws for grabs make a large number of feats, powers, etc. either useless or (if you allow the penalties they added to escape attempts to add to saves instead) overpowered.
#4 babyj May 10, 2010 23:16:47	@ Bandicoot: I think the fix should be use the better of two stats, this case Str and Dex, but allow the same system you speak of for the rest of it. That is, using the part of it that specifies feat and enhancement bonuses still apply. But using the prime ability should not vary so much as to be a nonphysical trait except through a feat. Think of it like the feats that give you the freedom to use a non standard attribute for attacks of a physical nature, but they apply to melee basic attack ONLY. Those are restrictive so that the feat is not OP, so allowing that sort of freedom should be broken down into feats per attribute as well in the same way. Like rewrite those feats to be: Feat Melee Training (Charisma): You use Charisma in place of Strength for attack and damage with melee basic attack and grabs. Feat Grapple Training (Constitution): You may use your Constitution score in place of your Strength score for the purpose of grapple and escape checks. Grapple Focus: You gain a +1 feat bonus to grapple checks. etc New Formula for Grapples: d20 + class (if they get a bonus to Fort or Ref they get the higher of the two here) + race (if they get a bonus to Fort or Ref they get the higher of the two here) + ability scores (use higher of Str or Dex) + 15 (1/2 level) + 2 (feats) + 4 (optional abilty score increases) + 6 (enhancement bonuses) + item bonuses (write up some spiked wristbands of the wrestler perhaps) + misc bonuses (paragon paths; think Pit Fighter-ish, or Drunken Boxer paragons) Formula for Defenses: base + all of the above
#5 Bandikoot May 11, 2010 0:14:48	On the surface I like your suggestion babyj, but I always like to throw some numbers in and see how it works. 1st level human prescient bard (he's gonna be about worst case) d20 + 1 (class) + 1 (race) + 0 (ability score) = +2 30th level same dude d20 + 1 (class) + 1 (race) + 1 (ability score) + 15 (1/2 lvl) + 6 (enhancement) +2 (feats) = +26 he only gets the lvl 11 and 21 to str/dex He's in really bad shape, but if he takes your modified melee training feat, he works like the fighter below. The only thing I dislike about that is it starts to feel like a feat tax because he has to take it in order to escape a grab. On the other hand, it would fit the idea of non-martial classes having to do a little bit extra in order to accomplish physical tasks. 1st level half-orc tempest fighter d20 + 2 (class) + 0 (race) + 4 (ability score) = +6 30th level same dude d20 + 2 (class) + 0 (race) + 8 (ability score) + 15 (1/2 level) + 6 (enhancement) +2 (feats) = +33 Throw in an item or misc bonus and he's kept up with the level progression of defenses. Excellent, now WotC just needs to erratta escaping from a grab. Thanks a lot.
#6 pluisjen May 11, 2010 4:47:59	Here's another one that might work real easy: Each side rolls a d20, and adds their Fortitude or Reflex defense (the side that tries to escape chooses). If your result is higher then his, you break free. Now it automatically scales, weak people also have at least a chance of breaking free, armor penalties don't apply, and you don't need to introduce any new items or strange rules.
#7 Bandikoot May 11, 2010 12:02:17	As I see it there are some pros and cons to your suggestion: Pro - It's easy. The person in my group that uses his fingers to add could handle it. - Less math for me; I won't have to do the much simpler monster escape calculations. Con - It's an opposed roll, which is something that 4E attempted to eliminate and a design philosophy I totally agree with. I think I might still give it a try and see how it works out.
#8 pluisjen May 11, 2010 12:09:10	Good points about opposed rolls. You could always deal with that by doing "1d20 + escaper vs grabber + 10".
#9 stargazer_dragon May 12, 2010 6:38:23	the point I have steadily heard so far is that they scale at 1/2 level difrently, couldn't you then simply just use skill + 1/2 lv vrs fort or reflex?? Not done the math but seams like ti would fix the math issue with little to no other effect
#10 Bandikoot May 12, 2010 11:49:21	No, that would actually push things in the opposite direction where it is too easy to escape a grab. Monster and PC grab attacks would become useless. You see, the reason PCs get ability score increases, enhancement bonuses, math feats, etc is to keep up with monster scaling. If you started at a PC's initial stat and then added level you would be ok, but throw in ability score increases at later levels, feats, and training (the stuff you get RAW) and it grows too quickly.
#11 stargazer_dragon May 12, 2010 14:11:27	after a lot of math I have a better Idea of the problem, at lvl 11 the issue only apears with non optimised chars at lvl 30 even a maxamised optimised char has a hard time escaping. Perhaps +3 to athletics/acrobatics per teir for exscape rolls? At lvl 30 with optimised stats and just skill focus athletics this roll would be Optomised char (18 base stat, all ups to str, and racial bonus is stat + trained and focused in skill) d20+38 vrs 38-48 (fort/reflex) so it would maintain usefull, with the harder roll being 12 a non optimised char (10 base stat, untrained, no feats, no stat upgrades, and no racial bonus) D20+22 VRS 38-48 becomes inpossible, however if we simply add training +27 then add skill focus +30 then a unoptomised char can still escape on a roll of 18. A super optimised char could take a lot of feats to almost always exscape that that fits belnce. **seams like adding +3 to escape rolls per teir should fix the issue but I could be missing a lot.