| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1malus_dravenMay 25, 2010 2:18:58 | I understand some sacrifices have to be made when hybriding for balance but the current rules are pretty draconian and that's why so many people seem to think hybrids suck and won't play them. While I appreciate some of the rules streamlining of 4e, I miss the flexibility and fun of 3e multiclassing. |
| #2Damon_TorMay 26, 2010 2:30:36 | The problem here is that some hybrid combinations are already highly effective, and this would be likely to push them over the edge. A fighter|monk with unarmed strike and tempest technique at level 2 would be broken. Fighter|Rangers already surpass pure rangers for DPR, the ability to ignore fighter powers when needed AND to take things like Prime Shot for Called Shot and other shenanigans would just make it that much worse. There are issues with hybrids, but most of them can be solved simply by standardizing classes with defense enhancing features with those that use armor prof for the same effects, and surgically altering the problematic half-classes (tempest tech needs to lose something, Battlefront Leader should probably be made unavailable) |
| #3malus_dravenMay 26, 2010 7:45:21 | Interesting point. We haven't implemented the hybrid talent house rule yet. Do you think that simply sticking to house rule #1 (cherry-picking powers between hybrid classes) by itself is broken? The problem hybrids have is everyone I talk to in and out of my group thinks they suck as written (too weak) and refuses to play one. I know I tried playing around with the character builder to make a hybrid for hours and came up with one awful character after another... That is, until I figured out to make hybrids that relied on the same key abilities and only two, not three to avoid MAD suckitude. What bugged me more than not being able to take hybrid talent when I wanted (to get Channel Divinity) was screwing me out of the powers I wanted... For example, I wanted both Cleric Daily 1: Moment of Glory and Cleric Daily 5: Consecrated Ground. The rules were trying to force me to take a (by comparison) crummy Paladin Daily 5 to "balance" my power selection so I got my DM to houserule cherry-picking. I am currently playing a level 5 hybrid cleric/chaladin and digging it--I can melee tank (and literally tank as I use platemail + heavy shield and hardly ever get hit). By turning STR into a dump stat, Chaladin lets me use my Charisma to hit and do damage. I can use Wisdom to make decent ranged attacks when needed and either Charisma or Wisdom to do leadery things with heals, buffs and zones. And thanks to a high WIS and CHA, I have good scores in leader skills like Diplomacy and Insight. The only problem is I have no Channel Divinity and am missing an extra Healing Word (as well as Paladin powers like Lay On Hands). However, picking the right powers that heal seems to more than make up for the lack of an extra Healing Word. I could multiclass into Invoker or Avenger to access Channel Divinity and thus still get a PP at 11th without taking a second hybrid talent feat. Although I multiclassed Bard instead to get both the skill training I wanted, a decent extra healing (if only daily) via Majestic Word and, thanks to the Power of Arcana domain turned my main melee and ranged at-wills into arcane and divine powers so I can beef them up with the White Lotus feat line. ![]() |
| #4KruxeMay 26, 2010 11:34:15 | I would say that for the most part hybrids are fine. Yea there are many builds that end up craptastic, but there are also some that function very well. My main issue with hybrids is the Hybrid Talent feat tax, and the fact that paragon hybriding gets no 16th level feature. I would suggest giving all hybrids hybrid talent as a bonus feat at level 1. Then paragon hybrids get it again at 11 and 16 (3 max hybrid talents). This might cause some unintended consequences, but I don't think 2 hybrid talents will match up to most paragon path features. |
| #5malus_dravenMay 26, 2010 17:18:04 | I dunno... I mean, I appreciate that splitting your studies between two different classes should have some ramifications on your abilities without spending the extra hybrid talent feats. However, screwing the player out of a PP at 11th level just to get a class feature is lame. That's why I think you should be able to burn two feats to take hybrid talent and still get a PP at 11th. But in light of the other poster's comments, maybe make it so you can take it at 1st level as written and again at 4th or 8th by burning the feats. Then you still get a PP at 11th. Granted, I don't know all the possible hybrid talent feature combinations to get a "broken" result. Another gripe: Hybrid hit points are weak. I tested it in the character builder and my cleric/paladin PC is 5 hp short of where he should be if he were a straight cleric or paladin instead of a hybrid, and this is even with the Auspicious Birth background feat that lets me use my highest stat (CHA or WIS: both 18 at first level and going up every chance I get) to gain extra hp instead of CON. What is up with that? Now I have to take the boring Toughness feat on top of Auspicious Birth in order to get my hp up to snuff? Lame. The trick to building an effective hybrid is picking classes that share key abilities but that still leaves out many popular fantasy archetypes like rogue/wizard, fighter/wizard, etc. It's a bummer and a straightjacket on player creativity that D&D 3e/3.5e or Star Wars d20 didn't have. |
| #6Damon_TorMay 26, 2010 23:48:37 | It sounds to me like you want a cleric in plate armor, which is not what's intended by the hybrid rules. You're say that you don't have enough hitpoints to be a defender, and are missing out on heals/power to make you a proper leader, and there's a reason for that; you chose to be half of both. What you propose makes it far too easy to be both classes with impunity. You game, your rules, but your houserule leave absolutely no reason to ever be a pure class (and I'll note there are already full classes which are made obsolete by hybrids.) |
| #7malus_dravenMay 27, 2010 2:16:02 | A cleric in platemail is clearly intended by the rules or they wouldn't let you pick paladin armor proficiency with hybrid talent. Thanks to high AC from plate + heavy shield proficiency and good hp from Auspicious Birth, I do have enough power to be a defender/off-tank. I just don't get why I am 5 hp short for some reason of where I would be if I had taken a single class. And as I said, power selection (especially on the cleric side) provides plenty of good healing and buffing opportunities for my leadership role. Because I had to make STR a dump stat to avoid MAD, I lose out on half of all powers for both cleric and paladin but I'm fine with that. The Wisdom and Charisma-based powers are plenty good and often better than the Strength-derived ones. I have two good melee at-wills (Virtuous Strike [also a basic] and Ardent Strike [basic on charge]) and one good ranged (Lance of Faith). Thanks to taking Power of Arcana and Power of The Sun domain feats, both Virtuous Strike and Lance of Faith inflict vulnerable radiant 3, +1 to hit on my next attack if I hit, and are both arcane and divine powers setting me up for the White Lotus line. Later on, I will add Power of Strife and then my Lance of Faith and Ardent Strike will get a tier-scaling damage bonus for every enemy within 3 squares of my target. Factoring in that and the White Lotus cheese, all my at-wills will be very strong. Even without the house rule on cherrypicking, my hybrid is a very viable build--able to take a lot of punishment while still saving the party's bacon. The cherrypicking just makes it all the sweeter because let's face it, there are some levels where every power choice is suboptimal for certain classes. The house rule makes sure you can still get a good power. I say it is balanced because I don't get Channel Divinity, one extra Healing Word per encounter and the various Paladin features like Lay On hands, Divine Mettle, etc. I don't know about other class combinations but I do know I like my hybrid better than I would playing a regular cleric or paladin. This is a true "battle cleric" build, IMO, combining the melee toughness of the paladin with the ranged/buffing/healing of the cleric. It's superior to a straight cleric trying to tank, or a straight paladin trying to lead, or a Runepriest because it has access to better armor and better powers/heals with the added bonus of being less fiddly with all those confusing rune states getting in the way. I just wish WotC would give me a good battle cleric build right out of the box but they don't. Honestly, I would prefer to see more viable and versatile hybrids like mine because I want to play the character I want to play (in this case, a battle cleric), not the one WotC tries to pigeonhole me into. |
| #8stargazer_dragonMay 27, 2010 9:11:46 | I think honestly the only problem with hybrid is that the stat mixes makes a lot of builds uber weak, easy fix is allow one of the classes powers to be converted to use a primary skill of char choice. Just like the bards multiclass feat does for multiclass powers. just a thought |
| #9hahntsak7May 29, 2010 2:25:41 | My main gripe when it comes to hybrids [which I and my group love] palading got neutered. they first playtested it: lay on hands was at-will wisdom times a day part of core package hybrid. then it was a hybrid talent. now it is no longer part of a hybrid paladin at all. if you want lay on hands, either no hybrid or house rule it in. I vote inthat case to house rule it in in for hybrid paladins as it nitially swas offered. just MHO |