So here's the proposed rule.
1. Each player has an unlimited number of healing surges.
2. You can use a maximum number of healing surges per encounter equal to your CON mod (see variations below). Healing powers that don't use surges get around this limitation.
3. The Durable feat lets you use one more surge per encounter.
I think that would be a lot cooler in general. Players would actually have to be careful in each encounter, and you could just have one encounter in a day without healing surges being meaningless.
These would be the options I'd consider, depending on how tough or easy I want the game to be:
Healing surges usable per encounter
CON mod
CON mod +1 for defenders only
CON mod +1 for all
CON mod +1 for all; CON mod +2 for defenders
CON mod +2 (probably too generous)
For the kind of game I'd want to run ... CON mod +1 for defenders only (CON mod for everyone else).
If you're doing this retroactively to a group, then I'd go with CON+1 for all classes and let them retrain into Durable if they want to. Or CON mod +2, since they didn't know the rule until you created it. Or just let them rejigger their attribute stats and then go with a lower option (such as just CON mod, with the new version of Durable). Of course, all of this works best if the party knows the rule before the game starts.
Now you've got another reason to have a high CON character in Paragon and Epic, which is cool. And you don't have to keep track of daily surges anymore. Because that's definitely a pain. And now your ranger with 10 CON has to really be afraid of getting hit
Thoughts? Lavish praises? Rotten tomatoes?
Honestly I think that you rather aggravate the problem here instead of creating a remedy.
Assume a day with 4 Encounters.
Rogue, Con 15 = 8 Healing Surges today.
Warlock, Con 18 = 16 Healing Surges today.
Paladin, Con 10 (as if he had points left for that) = 4 Healing Surges today, giving up to three of them away via Lay on Hands.
You end up with a Warlock that is virtually infitely healable and he probably goes Infernal so he also has tons of temp HP. The Paladin however is the main problem here. They might be generally able to pass up on Con because they get good HP and surges already and don't need to take Armor Proficiency Feats. They are screwed now.
Healing Surge Totals should *not* matter on 1-2 Encounter days IMO because they represent the resolve of a character of going through extended punishment during a long time span. During your One-Encounter boss fight day the amount of Healing Surges *spendable* via Healing Powers and potions should really determine the party's staying power.
For a spin to put a strain on player's Surges, inflict Mummy Rot on them or throw Black Slaadi or Wights at them who drain Surges (the new energy drain) on a hit.
And as a further alternative: If you typically run short adventuring days (which is perfectly fine IMO), you might just reduce the amount of Healing Surges by a fixed or relative amount i.e. everybody gets -2 per day or everybody gets only half surges. That way you will preserve the balance of healing ressource a little better then by completely altering the way they are distributed.
It doesn't matter how many surges they have, they can only spend X amount per encounter, so just turn up the damage output of your encounters to put pressure on their ability to heal.
You end up with a Warlock that is virtually infitely healable and he probably goes Infernal so he also has tons of temp HP. The Paladin however is the main problem here. They might be generally able to pass up on Con because they get good HP and surges already and don't need to take Armor Proficiency Feats. They are screwed now.
I disagree there. Getting a 12 CON isn't hard, really. Let's say you get your 12 CON and you take the Durable feat. The rule that I mentioned that I favor is defenders get CON mod+1. So then the paladin can spend three healing surges per encounter. Definitely not screwed.
And if they want it to be 4 per encounter, then they get 14 CON, or they start with 13 CON and get it for free at Paragon. With starting 12 CON, they get 14 CON for free at Epic.
Or they pick a race that gets a CON bonus. After all, half-elves are one of the most common races for a paladin. I actually like playing dwarven paladins.
Or they wear dwarven armor, which doesn't cost you a healing surge. Or they get their cleric to take cure light wounds in case they ever need it. Or he uses Bolstering strike more often, or other pal powers that grant temp hp.
Yes, the warlock can be healed a bunch in your example. But he still has to get healed that many times. It's not that you get healing as a free action. And he should get some benefits from all that CON. Normally, he'll never use all of those healing surges.
Does a short rest fully heal the character?
Or can they use up to their remaining "encounter" healing surges during a short rest?
How about taking two short rests?
How about a character deliberately getting into an encounter/fight just so they can get another set of "per encounter" healing surges - i.e. figuring they will gain more HP due to the fight than they lose?
Or a character hanging around at the back of a fight because they are injured, and you have ruled that only combats (somehow) trigger availability of healing surges?
Or do non-combat encounters count? They do for most other "per-encounter" rulings.
How about powers or rituals that expend healing surges out of combat?
Which brings us to the point of how useful your solutions ends up to be. If it's so easy to get your surges per encounter up as you say, your characters will end up with significantly more healing ressources than they have by default leading to a situation were they matter even less (not to say not at all) as a ressource to manage than it is now.
But then they have to put the points in CON, to take feats like Durable or Dwarven Durability (which would work the same way), etc.
A moment ago, you said it was too difficult. Now you say it's too easy. Makes me think you'd just argue it just to argue it no matter what ;)
Actually, I think it would strike a perfect balance. For characters that max CON, they'd probably have plenty of healing opportunities per encounter if they could get the healing. But then the point is that they still have to find ways to actually be healed (and they sacrificed other stats and things to get to that point).
If everyone in your party has an 18 CON just because they want a lot of potential healing opportunities, then of course they're going to suck in other areas. If they want to do that, then they at least can be healed, but still need to find the ways to actually heal, and the characters will be gimped in other ways and they may get beaten up more because of this.
The best thing, as always, would be to strike the right balance. Most characters would probably want to start with between a 12 and 16 CON, which is totally reasonable. You could run one tough encounter in a day without healing surges per se being a totally useless mechanic.
What happens between encounters in your "no daily limit" house rule . . .
Does a short rest fully heal the character?
Or can they use up to their remaining "encounter" healing surges during a short rest?
How about taking two short rests?
How about a character deliberately getting into an encounter/fight just so they can get another set of "per encounter" healing surges - i.e. figuring they will gain more HP due to the fight than they lose?
Or a character hanging around at the back of a fight because they are injured, and you have ruled that only combats (somehow) trigger availability of healing surges?
Or do non-combat encounters count? They do for most other "per-encounter" rulings.
How about powers or rituals that expend healing surges out of combat?
I'd actually allow full healing during short rests.
On the last question, it's a good one, and you'd have to go case by case. Take for example healing potions vs potions of vigor. Healing potions could be used during battle an unlimited amount. Potions of vigor would count towards your per encounter healing surges.
If we think outside the box a bit, then not having to give up a healing surge on a ritual isn't really that big of a deal. But I'd be very into making certain items and things take away from your current (or next) per encounter surge total. I think those things can be figured out case by case.
I'd actually allow full healing during short rests.
Ah. Most of my follow-on questions assumed that was not the case. :D
I think in your attempt to fix a mechanic, you give away a lot. The only (expendable) resources that would track from encounter to encounter would be Action Points and Daily Powers.
The DM could also start limiting the players a bit if he really wants to encourage them to rest.
But this is D&D. None of this, "Waaaaah. I can't fight again today. I need my beauty sleep" :P
A moment ago, you said it was too difficult. Now you say it's too easy. Makes me think you'd just argue it just to argue it no matter what ;)
I can see how that may have struck you as odd but as far as I am concerned, the argument worked out well for me (and the point was not arguing only for the sake of being argumentative).
Let me summarize our exchange of points on that matter:
Your initial post was the statement of a problem. That problem was that the amount of healing surges per day didn't matter because they never run out. You then described a way how that would be changed.
I answered that your change of the surge system would be advantageous to classes that already have good use for Con (Some Warlock builds and those who go for heavy armor) and penalize those that don't need it prior to your rules change.
You countered that it would be easy enough for everyone to get enough surges per day so that they wouldn't suffer much. And the real trouble would be to get them triggered via healing powers anyway.
I concluded that this is not what you stated as your intent. Because you claimed that you actually wanted running out of surges to be probable even before running out of ways to use them. Instead you have created a system were the amount of healing surges is infinite and you even state that there's a lot of possibilities to get healing even when your allotment per encounter is used up (Dwarven Armor, Cleric curing, temp HP, etc.). The role of healing surges as a limited resource that needs to be managed (act more defensively in upcoming fights when you are running low and such) has effectively eliminated.
I can see how that may have struck you as odd but as far as I am concerned, the argument worked out well for me (and the point was not arguing only for the sake of being argumentative).
Let me summarize our exchange of points on that matter:
Your initial post was the statement of a problem. That problem was that the amount of healing surges per day didn't matter because they never run out. You then described a way how that would be changed.
I answered that your change of the surge system would be advantageous to classes that already have good use for Con (Some Warlock builds and those who go for heavy armor) and penalize those that don't need it prior to your rules change.
You countered that it would be easy enough for everyone to get enough surges per day so that they wouldn't suffer much. And the real trouble would be to get them triggered via healing powers anyway.
I concluded that this is not what you stated as your intent. Because you claimed that you actually wanted running out of surges to be probable even before running out of ways to use them. Instead you have created a system were the amount of healing surges is infinite and you even state that there's a lot of possibilities to get healing even when your allotment per encounter is used up (Dwarven Armor, Cleric curing, temp HP, etc.). The role of healing surges as a limited resource that needs to be managed (act more defensively in upcoming fights when you are running low and such) has effectively eliminated.
You're actually changing my words and argument here, so you've won vs the strawman.
As far as what I'm actually saying, if you were to use the rules I've proposed, we would now have a core game mechanic that matters whether you have one encounter per day or five. We also now have a core game mechanic that isn't a real headache to keep track of. We also have a stat (CON) that is less likely to be treated as a dump stat. We also have characters that can't die five times in a fight and get right back up every time unless they invest some attribute points in being able to do such a thing. We also have tough decisions that need to be made during character creation, which is always good. We fairly rewards builds that put a lot of points into CON, and we give everyone options for how to make sure they can heal enough if they make the effort to do so (but not without opportunity costs).
Your comment that the need to manage the resource of healing surges has been eliminated is simply not correct IMO. They would, however, need to be managed in a different way now. Instead of trying not to run out of them at the end of a tedious and restrictive dungeon delve (the only way they ever matter, generally is a long string of continuous encounters), you have to be careful how you play each encounter and adjust according to your build and your party.
Do you want to dump CON and have the highest DPR character you possible can? Then you're going to need some good defenders and you're going to need to try not to get hit too often. That makes sense to me.
I think this tightens up the game quite a bit and makes combat have more consequences if you aren't careful. There are pros and cons to it, but for me the pros look greater, and there are major cons in the current rules.
If you don't like the idea because you think it makes healing too easy (you seem to have reversed your earlier position that it made things too hard), then I'm glad to know that you won't be adopting this houserule because you personally do not like it.
I think you can recognize that there are at least two significant limits, though. One is you do have to create your character so that he or she can heal enough (see: your paladin example), which seems like the intended consequence of the concept of healing surges (i.e. that they should matter). Second is that you still have to find enough ways to heal, and that always involves trade-offs with other powers and items.
And if your party is full of people with 18 CON, then the tradeoff is that they'll be gimped in other areas. 4e's a game of balance, and I think this is one way to keep that flavor. No matter which way you build a party, there should be benefits and drawbacks.
On a more specific point on your paladin example. Although it's not a primary CON class, note that the lay on hands feature ends up having quite a bit more utility since it's another way to heal an ally that has used up his per encounter healing surge total.
Anyway, I think it would improve the game and make it more fun and interesting.
You and I will probably have to agree to disagree.
True, but I'm not seeing yet why that's such a bad thing. I think players will want to rest just to regain dailies and APs. Or, the story encourages an extended rest at a certain point.
The DM could also start limiting the players a bit if he really wants to encourage them to rest.
But this is D&D. None of this, "Waaaaah. I can't fight again today. I need my beauty sleep" :P
I used to hate overnight rests to regain Cure Light Wounds etc in v3, door blockaded so everyone got a rest - yes it felt very unheroic!
:-) I guess this becomes a style choice.
However, I'd like the consequences of being hit in combat to last longer than 5 minutes in-game time.
You do know there's another recent thread in this forum where someone is trying to "fix" healing to include effects that last beyond an extended rest?
So in some ways it seems WotC have hit a middle ground with how Healing Surges work :D
However, I'd like the consequences of being hit in combat to last longer than 5 minutes in-game time.
That's a very fair point, and it's one of the bigger trade-offs here. Do you want to limit longer-term daily healing? Or healing per encounter? Either has its advantages and drawbacks.
The reason I'm starting to favor the per encounter version is that it at least matters in every encounter and on every day, even on a day with one or two encounters.
One could also hypothetically combine these two approaches. If the daily healing surge totals is something you really like, then that RAW mechanic could be kept, and this other one could just be added. Just throwing out another possibility.
That's a very fair point, and it's one of the bigger trade-offs here. Do you want to limit longer-term daily healing? Or healing per encounter? Either has its advantages and drawbacks.
The reason I'm starting to favor the per encounter version is that it at least matters in every encounter and on every day, even on a day with one or two encounters.
One could also hypothetically combine these two approaches. If the daily healing surge totals is something you really like, then that RAW mechanic could be kept, and this other one could just be added. Just throwing out another possibility.
There is another trade-off, which is simple traps (pits, falling blocks, exploding runes etc) are written off completely.
A 50' drop, because of a skill failure? A door which fire-blasts someone who tries to force it? No problem, a 5 minute rest will sort those out as if nothing had never happened.
To compensate, I've tweaked potions. A generic healing potion either restores it's 10 health - no surge cost - or, once an encounter, restores a surge. So far I've only had one player drink away his savings, and now he's beginning to wonder why everyone else has better gear than he does...
(I'm not cruel; I'll probably let him find something fancy sooner or later. It may be a hat with straws attached and places to put healing potions, but it'll be fancy all right.)
Encounter/Story Pacing
The encounter / daily constructs, along with healing surges and the encounter xp budget all very heavily assume a certain style of pacing, which works OK-ish in a dungeon or ruins exploration setting (fair enough, the game's name gives a clue here). This pace seems to be around 3 - 5 "standard" combats in a day's adventuring, with a chance to rest in-between.
Trouble only starts when this pacing doesn't match the actual story or style that the DM and players expect. The mechanics start to feel unrealistic and too easy if you are running a wilderness exploration/trek with a simple encounter every few days. They start to feel restrictive for a rollercoaster ride of encounters, traps and time challenges.
If you want both extremes of pacing in the same campaign (three week's mountaineering to get to Deadly Dunjen), then the mechanics are not going to work with any minor tweak - you either need to redefine "encounter" and "day" entirely for balance (throwing out a little more realism to get what you want), or you have to accept that one or more pacing styles is a bit fragile, so best not to spend too much time playing it.
Why is this even an issue? Why do you WANT your players to run out of healing surges? The job of the DM is not to kill the players, but to move the story along and mediate everyone so that everyone has FUN.
A system of daily healing surges limits the number of encounters players will want to get into in a given day. The milestone system balances this with incentives to press on to have multiple encounters. When a character is out of healing surges, it's time for a rest.
WotC doesn't see this as a problem. Look at items like the Healer's Sash, or, even more recent, the Artificer class. Unlike other leaders, the artificer's healing-word-like power is 2/day, AND when healing it "allows the character to regain hit points as if he had spent a healing surge", not actually spending one. But once one or more of them are used any party member can spend a surge to recharge it during a short rest. The artficer cannot have more than 2 of these infusions at early levels.
This mechanic effectively creates a pool of healing surges for the entire party to use. You have a great defender, and the wizard never takes damage? Well, the wizard can spend HIS healing surges to recharge the healing infusions, and the healing can goto the defender, or one of the strikers. This can make for even more encounters/day, because one character being out of healing surges doesn't mean he's out of healing.
Furthermore, you compained about bookkeeping. Your system requires even MORE bookkeeping. The block on the character sheet under "healing surges used", they would be constantly writing in and erasing between short rests, as opposed to simply adding a hatch mark every time they use a surge, and only erasing during an extended one.
If you are trying to "make their healing resources matter" work with the system. There's no need to re-invent the wheel. Throw monsters at them such as wights, things that drain healing surges on a hit and do this in the middle of a creeypy crypt or something where taing an extended rest isn't an option.
But the fact is if your players are managing their healing resources well, then you just have good players, or at least the defender and the leader. A good player in either or both of those class roles can spare the party a lot of unnecessary damage and use of healing resources.
Seriously?
How is this supposed to "fix" the "problem" of people not using all their HS? And why is it a "problem" in the first place?
As well, how will this reduce book keeping? Instead of keeping track of how many HS you have left for the day, you keep track of how many you've used this encounter. It's the same thing, except you have to keep reseting your HS-per-encounter during normal play.
Really, all this does is force all character to spend at least two points on Con and severly limits their healing during an encounter.
Then again, since you said you'd allow full healing during short rests, the entire dynamic of the game changes. The game is now completely about getting through encounters instead of days. If you can beat this encounter, you are fully healed. Seriously, the party will never need to sleep ever!
I mean, your main complaint was that the only way to remove all of a character's HS is to throw multiple encounter at them. You find it a "problem" that some days the characters do not use all their HS. So your solution is to award the players with unlimited HS.
Bottom line, harder encounters, Leaders are useless, party need never rest for more than a few minutes.
Instead of Healing Surges, call them Power Surges and make them useful in certain other ways according to the Power Source of the character's class.
For example, unless there really is some kind of unlimited power source he can tap into, I really don't like the idea of a wizard having an unlimited supply of Magic Missiles (or any other At-Will Spell, except Cantrips maybe). So, I was considering requiring Arcane spellcasters to use an Arcane Surge to cast that Magic Missile. If they use their Surges up on At-Will Spells, they won't have anything for healing (Arcane Surge can be converted to Healing Surge, or vice versa).
I have not presented here a complete system, but something like this would allow for interesting things like wizards charging up their implements (through a Ritual most likely) with Arcane Surges in order to have a battery of those Magic Missiles available.
I have pondered what a Martial Surge (and Divine, Primal, etc.) would do besides the Healing Surge as well: things like add to defense(s), add damage to a hit, eek out a little extra speed, etc. The point, I guess, is that this idea opens up a lot of possibilities for a Homebrew Campaign, which is why I decided to share it here. See also my post over here concerning "wound points" for another flavor aid in the vein of this thread.
Bear in mind that these ideas have not been tested yet on the field of play.
-J
the only way to see that happen is usually to throw a number of encounters at a party in a row (like 3-5, depending on difficulty of encounters) before this even becomes a possibility,
This is how it's balanced. 3-5 encounters per day.
If you change the rate of battles, then you SHOULD change the surge/daily item recharge rate as well. Nothing else, just change the rate.