Fixing the Stealth headache - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nerf_ninja Jul 12, 2008 9:23:24	The only thing I don't like about 4e stealth rules is how easy it is for anyone to gain total concealment (the effects of succeeding on a stealth check). Not a lot of monsters have great perception (not in KotS anyway), so even characters without great stealth can hide with about a 50/50 chance of success -- and total concealment until they act. What does that mean? Basically, almost every character ought to try to be stealthy in combat. It costs nothing to try and the benefits are immense. Combat advantage is a great benefit that rogues are generally expected to have -- but should every striker, controller, and leader get it as well? Also, total concealment is one of the best defenses in the game. What is the problem? Every character makes stealth checks against every enemy in LOS. Likewise, every enemy makes PER checks against every stealthy character. Twice a round: once on the PCs' turn, and once on the monsters' turn. That's a lot of die rolling. Also, it makes Stealth a no-brainer skill to get trained in. Invisibility is until you attack or the end of your next turn. But why bother? Just take Stealth. You can have it at first level. My favorite approach to stealth may have already been discussed elsewhere, but I haven't seen it. My house rule will be to split the benefits of stealth into two: 1) get combat advantage, and 2) total concealment. 1) Stealth may be used to gain combat advantage against a foe, if you can attack from concealment or cover. Basically, you need the stealth enablers. If you have cover or concealment, make a stealth check opposed by the target's perception as part of the attack. Success grants you combat advantage for the attack, but no other benefit such as total concealment. 2) Stealth may be used to enter hiding, and thus gain total concealment. Effectively this is the condition of "hiding." To enter hiding, you have to break LOS to your target(s) by having total cover or total concealment. You cannot enter hiding in normal concealment or cover without a distraction. This makes it possible to hide outside of combat to set up an ambush. But in combat you need a good hiding spot (or bluff) to gain total concealment. Once in hiding, you can sneak about in normal cover or concealment; you also have total concealment against enemies that can't perceive you. Once hiding is broken (by attacking, or your target gains unobstructed LOS to you) you can only regain it with one of the methods above. In this way I think stealth is mostly useful for sneaky types, but removes the biggest DM's headache -- which is frequent total concealment. -NN
#2 ariasilverhands Jul 12, 2008 9:31:49	Stealth is the new polymorph.
#3 aluman Jul 12, 2008 11:30:23	Simplest Solution: If your stealth check is under the monster's passive perception you do not gain any benfits of stealth. If a monster points out your location to fellows you lack total concealment At level 1 Typical non dex booster (Fighter,Paladin,Warlord,Cleric,Wizard,Warlock): +8 at most (skill training+skill focus and human) if they move 2 squares or more, it drops to +3 +1 Perception for typical for level 1 monster, passive Perception 11 This means that 7/20 no roll is needed for the stealth specilized non-dex man, and most the time they will have -5 to their stealth check. Meaning that 15/20 times no further check is needed. On a roll of 20, the monster has to roll above 14 or better to spot the guy. Dex booster (Archer Ranger, Rogue): +5 from skill training +5 for 20 dex +3 for skill focus and human +13, +8 when moving 2 squares. They still are able to be stealthy run around, but when there is 5 or so monsters, the odds of them not being spotted and thus losing total concealment is low.
#4 doomsought Jul 12, 2008 11:55:58	just state that they must have partial cover to begin with and maybe some equipment. If they have a blade out, give them a penalty because it is shiny, ect.
#5 aluman Jul 12, 2008 11:58:34	just state that they must have partial cover to begin with and maybe some equipment. If they have a blade out, give them a penalty because it is shiny, ect. If mean to make any stealth check that makes bluff useless, if you mean outside of distraction by bluff, that's already how it works.
#6 nerf_ninja Jul 12, 2008 13:18:09	Stealth is the new polymorph. True, and raised to a higher degree. Any character can take it with at most a single feat expended. The other option that slightly reduces the amount of stealth checks is to allow only those trained in stealth to use it, as it's written, in combat. Still, by level 4 everyone will have still taken skill training in it. And you don't need a high skill mod to benefit from it a lot of the time. My goal as DM is to reduce the number of ad hoc judgement calls, to increase consistency and to speed up encounters. So I don't like the hassle involved with assigning skill penalties where none has been indicated by the rules. The point I'm trying to make is that the benefits of stealth, as written, are so good that there is no reason any character shouldn't be using it as much as possible. As a result, it's an enormous hassle to run the game. Therefore, I'm trying to reduce its effectiveness in general, and still provide the specific benefits that stealthy characters are trying to gain. Can anyone see anything borked up in this re-interpretation? -NN
#7 Tsuul Jul 12, 2008 21:36:39	I don't see stealth as being that big of a deal. Party strikers are not supposed to be defending themselves much anyway, so who cares if they increase their defenses by hiding. Party defenders are supposed to be rounding up the bad guys and stealthing hampers their roles ability to manage their opponents movement. If it's really THAT big of a deal, then next time the party starts to roll for stealth tell them "Don't bother rolling, I'll give everyone a 20 on their stealth roll this round." Then just ready actions to strike when the first person they can attack reveals themselves. Someone'll drop/die, and it'll end the shinanagins.
#8 grogmcgee Jul 13, 2008 0:18:54	The only thing I don't like about 4e stealth rules is how easy it is for anyone to gain total concealment (the effects of succeeding on a stealth check). No. You do not gain total concealment from stealth. To make a stealth check you need: Some kind of cover or concealment. If the cover being used to make a stealth check is cover then you have cover and the specific cover rules apply. If the cover being used to make a stealth check is superior cover then you have superior cover and the superior cover rules apply. If the concealment being used to make a stealth check is concealment then you have concealment and the concealment rules apply. If the concealment being used to make a stealth check is total concealment then you have total concealment and the total concealment rules apply. cover or concealment When you have cover or concealment attacks made against you suffer a -2 penalty to their roll. If you are stealthed then the attacker must first either negate your cover or concealment or beat your stealth check with a perception check. However, a perception check does not negate cover or concealment unless the act of looking at something negates the cover or concealment. If they do neither of those things then they can merely attack the square you are in.
#9 aluman Jul 13, 2008 1:52:50	Actually what he means is the 50/50 of not having exact position for you in combat (I presume) which I am assuming is going to get ground down by a FAQ update soon, as to me its the CustServ mis-answering. However that debate for now isn't important. What is important, so as of right now what CustServ says is that when you are hidden through Stealth they can't pinpoint your square so all the penalties of 'attack what you can't see' apply. (including a 50/50 miss chance).
#10 nerf_ninja Jul 14, 2008 13:07:32	Last night I ran a few encounters with KotS using the house rules above. It went pretty well and was simple to run. The rogue got CA easily, the sneaky monsters got to hide a bit.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

nerf_ninja

Jul 12, 2008 9:23:24

The only thing I don't like about 4e stealth rules is how easy it is for anyone to gain total concealment (the effects of succeeding on a stealth check). Not a lot of monsters have great perception (not in KotS anyway), so even characters without great stealth can hide with about a 50/50 chance of success -- and total concealment until they act.

What does that mean? Basically, almost every character ought to try to be stealthy in combat. It costs nothing to try and the benefits are immense. Combat advantage is a great benefit that rogues are generally expected to have -- but should every striker, controller, and leader get it as well? Also, total concealment is one of the best defenses in the game.

What is the problem? Every character makes stealth checks against every enemy in LOS. Likewise, every enemy makes PER checks against every stealthy character. Twice a round: once on the PCs' turn, and once on the monsters' turn. That's a lot of die rolling. Also, it makes Stealth a no-brainer skill to get trained in. Invisibility is until you attack or the end of your next turn. But why bother? Just take Stealth. You can have it at first level.

My favorite approach to stealth may have already been discussed elsewhere, but I haven't seen it. My house rule will be to split the benefits of stealth into two: 1) get combat advantage, and 2) total concealment.

1) Stealth may be used to gain combat advantage against a foe, if you can attack from concealment or cover. Basically, you need the stealth enablers. If you have cover or concealment, make a stealth check opposed by the target's perception as part of the attack. Success grants you combat advantage for the attack, but no other benefit such as total concealment.

2) Stealth may be used to enter hiding, and thus gain total concealment. Effectively this is the condition of "hiding." To enter hiding, you have to break LOS to your target(s) by having total cover or total concealment. You cannot enter hiding in normal concealment or cover without a distraction. This makes it possible to hide outside of combat to set up an ambush. But in combat you need a good hiding spot (or bluff) to gain total concealment. Once in hiding, you can sneak about in normal cover or concealment; you also have total concealment against enemies that can't perceive you. Once hiding is broken (by attacking, or your target gains unobstructed LOS to you) you can only regain it with one of the methods above.

In this way I think stealth is mostly useful for sneaky types, but removes the biggest DM's headache -- which is frequent total concealment.

-NN

ariasilverhands

Jul 12, 2008 9:31:49

Stealth is the new polymorph.

aluman

Jul 12, 2008 11:30:23

Simplest Solution: If your stealth check is under the monster's passive perception you do not gain any benfits of stealth. If a monster points out your location to fellows you lack total concealment

At level 1
Typical non dex booster (Fighter,Paladin,Warlord,Cleric,Wizard,Warlock): +8 at most (skill training+skill focus and human) if they move 2 squares or more, it drops to +3 +1 Perception for typical for level 1 monster, passive Perception 11

This means that 7/20 no roll is needed for the stealth specilized non-dex man, and most the time they will have -5 to their stealth check. Meaning that 15/20 times no further check is needed. On a roll of 20, the monster has to roll above 14 or better to spot the guy.

Dex booster (Archer Ranger, Rogue): +5 from skill training +5 for 20 dex +3 for skill focus and human +13, +8 when moving 2 squares. They still are able to be stealthy run around, but when there is 5 or so monsters, the odds of them not being spotted and thus losing total concealment is low.

doomsought

Jul 12, 2008 11:55:58

just state that they must have partial cover to begin with and maybe some equipment.
If they have a blade out, give them a penalty because it is shiny, ect.

aluman

Jul 12, 2008 11:58:34

just state that they must have partial cover to begin with and maybe some equipment.
If they have a blade out, give them a penalty because it is shiny, ect.

If mean to make any stealth check that makes bluff useless, if you mean outside of distraction by bluff, that's already how it works.

nerf_ninja

Jul 12, 2008 13:18:09

Stealth is the new polymorph.

True, and raised to a higher degree. Any character can take it with at most a single feat expended.

The other option that slightly reduces the amount of stealth checks is to allow only those trained in stealth to use it, as it's written, in combat. Still, by level 4 everyone will have still taken skill training in it. And you don't need a high skill mod to benefit from it a lot of the time.

My goal as DM is to reduce the number of ad hoc judgement calls, to increase consistency and to speed up encounters. So I don't like the hassle involved with assigning skill penalties where none has been indicated by the rules.

The point I'm trying to make is that the benefits of stealth, as written, are so good that there is no reason any character shouldn't be using it as much as possible. As a result, it's an enormous hassle to run the game. Therefore, I'm trying to reduce its effectiveness in general, and still provide the specific benefits that stealthy characters are trying to gain.

Can anyone see anything borked up in this re-interpretation?

-NN

Tsuul

Jul 12, 2008 21:36:39

I don't see stealth as being that big of a deal. Party strikers are not supposed to be defending themselves much anyway, so who cares if they increase their defenses by hiding. Party defenders are supposed to be rounding up the bad guys and stealthing hampers their roles ability to manage their opponents movement.

If it's really THAT big of a deal, then next time the party starts to roll for stealth tell them "Don't bother rolling, I'll give everyone a 20 on their stealth roll this round." Then just ready actions to strike when the first person they can attack reveals themselves. Someone'll drop/die, and it'll end the shinanagins.

grogmcgee

Jul 13, 2008 0:18:54

The only thing I don't like about 4e stealth rules is how easy it is for anyone to gain total concealment (the effects of succeeding on a stealth check).

No. You do not gain total concealment from stealth.
To make a stealth check you need: Some kind of cover or concealment.

If the cover being used to make a stealth check is cover then you have cover and the specific cover rules apply.

If the cover being used to make a stealth check is superior cover then you have superior cover and the superior cover rules apply.

If the concealment being used to make a stealth check is concealment then you have concealment and the concealment rules apply.

If the concealment being used to make a stealth check is total concealment then you have total concealment and the total concealment rules apply.

cover or concealment

When you have cover or concealment attacks made against you suffer a -2 penalty to their roll.

If you are stealthed then the attacker must first either negate your cover or concealment or beat your stealth check with a perception check. However, a perception check does not negate cover or concealment unless the act of looking at something negates the cover or concealment.

If they do neither of those things then they can merely attack the square you are in.

aluman

Jul 13, 2008 1:52:50

Actually what he means is the 50/50 of not having exact position for you in combat (I presume) which I am assuming is going to get ground down by a FAQ update soon, as to me its the CustServ mis-answering. However that debate for now isn't important.

What is important, so as of right now what CustServ says is that when you are hidden through Stealth they can't pinpoint your square so all the penalties of 'attack what you can't see' apply. (including a 50/50 miss chance).

#10

nerf_ninja

Jul 14, 2008 13:07:32

Last night I ran a few encounters with KotS using the house rules above. It went pretty well and was simple to run. The rogue got CA easily, the sneaky monsters got to hide a bit.