Flipping Dual Strike: Ramifications - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Flipping Dual Strike: Ramifications

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
linthis
May 20, 2009 12:32:21 There have been other threads (which I can't find right now) debating the pros and cons of "flipping" dual strike for fighters; making it a two-targets only power with one attack per target instead of a single-target only power with two attacks per target. I don't want to re-start that discussion here, but my DM and I are considering doing this for my fighter.

I am interested in is what, if any rule/feat/power interactions people foresee which we need to address (preferably not in the middle of a combat). The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Heavy Blade Opportunity (since my fighter uses heavy blades).

Does anyone have suggestions about how HBO should be handled if the at-will used requires two targets? How would you handle any other potential interaction issues?
#2
Nerpherder
May 20, 2009 13:23:05
Does anyone have suggestions about how HBO should be handled if the at-will used requires two targets? How would you handle any other potential interaction issues?

If I even allowed this switch, I'd rule youd loose the second attack. I say this becuse of the following quotes, bolded for emphasis:

Many powers allow you to target multiple enemies.
Each of these enemies must be an eligible target.

When you’re adjacent to an enemy,
that enemy can’t move past you or use a ranged power
or an area power without putting itself in danger by
allowing you to take an opportunity attack against it.
The most common form of opportunity action is an
opportunity attack—a melee basic attack against the
creature that provokes it.

No other target provoked there for you have no other target and thus loose your second attack.

That being said, Id let you try it with the stipulation that if it becomes to overpowering we have to switch it back. Id let you retrain for free if we did that and you wanted to.

-Nerp
#3
Stuntman
May 20, 2009 15:31:44 You can only make opportunity attacks against an enemy that provokes the OA. You cannot target any other enemy that has not provoked an OA. Here's the rules from PH1 p. 290:

✦ Moving Provokes: If an enemy leaves a square
adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack
against that enemy. However, you can’t make one
if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move
away by a pull, a push, or a slide.
✦ Ranged and Area Powers Provoke: If an enemy
adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area
power, you can make an opportunity attack against
that enemy.

#4
ff6shadow
May 20, 2009 21:06:53 The rules don't stipulate that the provoking creature has to be the only target. It clearly must be a target. But if I could get, just as an example, a Close Burst 2 that could be used as an opportunity attack, there is absolutely no reason that the power would not target normally.

Moreover, the Opportunity Attack rules state that an Opportunity Attack is a Melee Basic Attack. A melee basic attack is a power all characters have, listed on page 287. Heavy Blade Opportunity replaces this power with the option to use another power, in this case it's Dual Strike, though Twin Strike would work perfectly well. Now, Dual Strike, as he is talking about changing, specifies two different targets. One target needs to be the triggering creature. Why can't the other hit somebody else? The Opportunity Attack rules tell you to use a power. Heavy Blade Opportunity allows a different power, and you should follow the rules for that power.

As to the original poster, Dual Strike is probably better balanced for a fighter by specifying two targets. And I don't see it as being a problem. Very few enemies want to provoke attacks of opportunity from a fighter, even more so when dealing with a Heavy Blade fighter. This just convinces the enemy to avoid it even more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 linthis May 20, 2009 12:32:21	There have been other threads (which I can't find right now) debating the pros and cons of "flipping" dual strike for fighters; making it a two-targets only power with one attack per target instead of a single-target only power with two attacks per target. I don't want to re-start that discussion here, but my DM and I are considering doing this for my fighter. I am interested in is what, if any rule/feat/power interactions people foresee which we need to address (preferably not in the middle of a combat). The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Heavy Blade Opportunity (since my fighter uses heavy blades). Does anyone have suggestions about how HBO should be handled if the at-will used requires two targets? How would you handle any other potential interaction issues?
#2 Nerpherder May 20, 2009 13:23:05	Does anyone have suggestions about how HBO should be handled if the at-will used requires two targets? How would you handle any other potential interaction issues? If I even allowed this switch, I'd rule youd loose the second attack. I say this becuse of the following quotes, bolded for emphasis: Many powers allow you to target multiple enemies. Each of these enemies must be an eligible target. When you’re adjacent to an enemy, that enemy can’t move past you or use a ranged power or an area power without putting itself in danger by allowing you to take an opportunity attack against it. The most common form of opportunity action is an opportunity attack—a melee basic attack against the creature that provokes it. No other target provoked there for you have no other target and thus loose your second attack. That being said, Id let you try it with the stipulation that if it becomes to overpowering we have to switch it back. Id let you retrain for free if we did that and you wanted to. -Nerp
#3 Stuntman May 20, 2009 15:31:44	You can only make opportunity attacks against an enemy that provokes the OA. You cannot target any other enemy that has not provoked an OA. Here's the rules from PH1 p. 290: ✦ Moving Provokes: If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide. ✦ Ranged and Area Powers Provoke: If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.
#4 ff6shadow May 20, 2009 21:06:53	The rules don't stipulate that the provoking creature has to be the only target. It clearly must be a target. But if I could get, just as an example, a Close Burst 2 that could be used as an opportunity attack, there is absolutely no reason that the power would not target normally. Moreover, the Opportunity Attack rules state that an Opportunity Attack is a Melee Basic Attack. A melee basic attack is a power all characters have, listed on page 287. Heavy Blade Opportunity replaces this power with the option to use another power, in this case it's Dual Strike, though Twin Strike would work perfectly well. Now, Dual Strike, as he is talking about changing, specifies two different targets. One target needs to be the triggering creature. Why can't the other hit somebody else? The Opportunity Attack rules tell you to use a power. Heavy Blade Opportunity allows a different power, and you should follow the rules for that power. As to the original poster, Dual Strike is probably better balanced for a fighter by specifying two targets. And I don't see it as being a problem. Very few enemies want to provoke attacks of opportunity from a fighter, even more so when dealing with a Heavy Blade fighter. This just convinces the enemy to avoid it even more.