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Forbidden Technique

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Omni-Wyvernil
May 07, 2009 22:15:46 Just looked around a bit here and realized that there's a lot of "power with a price"-type abilities in certain forms of media. In D&D, there's a few paladin abilities, for instance, that spend healing surges, but otherwise there's not much out there.

So here's a few ideas to cover the 'risking your life to cast the technique you need to win' concept.

Forbidden Technique
You strain your abilities and your life force to recall an ability a second time.
Tier: Paragon
Prerequisite: Level 11
Benefit: Spend a healing surge. You may reuse an encounter power which you have already expended. If you have already used this ability once in this encounter, you must make a saving throw afterwards. Failing the save immediately drops you to 0 HP.

Special Forbidden Technique
You tempt fate and throw your life in the balance to unleash that one power you need.
Tier: Epic
Prerequisite: Level 21, Forbidden Technique
Benefit: Spend a healing surge. You may reuse a daily power which you have already expended. You must make a saving throw afterwards. Failing the save immediately drops you to 0 HP.

The 'save or drop to 0' element is there for balance and to prevent players from going "nova" and blowing all their surges in a single encounter. Attempting to do that carries a tremendous risk which the player shouldn't take unless it is absolutely needed.

In your opinion, what would it take to balance such an idea? Is this even a good idea? PEACH would be appreciated.
#2
kryx
May 07, 2009 22:23:05 I would take heed to how Salve of Power did it. It's from Adventure's Vault. It lets you refresh a daily of level 5 or lower for expending a healing surge.

Without level restrictions I think it's pretty OP as it stands. And I'm not too fond of "make a save or fall unconscious". I would come up with something different.

Are these feats? Or powers given to all your players? If they were feats it would be more balanced. I would still add level restrictions for the encounters/dailies being refreshed, maybe add more feats to increase the level. I know it sounds like lots of feats, but being able to refresh a daily for a healing surge can be incredibly powerful. You could do some crazy DPR with that ability.
#3
Omni-Wyvernil
May 07, 2009 22:30:36
I would take heed to how Salve of Power did it. It's from Adventure's Vault. It lets you refresh a daily of level 5 or lower for expending a healing surge.

Without level restrictions I think it's pretty OP as it stands. And I'm not too fond of "make a save or fall unconscious". I would come up with something different.

Are these feats? Or powers given to all your players? If they were feats it would be more balanced. I would still add level restrictions for the encounters/dailies being refreshed, maybe add more feats to increase the level. I know it sounds like lots of feats, but being able to refresh a daily for a healing surge can be incredibly powerful. You could do some crazy DPR with that ability.

These are meant to be feats. Forbidden Technique is Paragon, and Special Forbidden Technique could be either Paragon or Epic (Epic might be more balanced, since recharging a daily is quite powerful).

What sort of alternative to the 'save or fall unconscious' would be suggested? (Maybe make a save or take damage equal to the amount the power would have dealt.)
#4
kryx
May 08, 2009 0:11:19 Even at that level I still find it very hard to be balanced. Especially for characters that have many many healing surges.

I would definitely limit it to once per encounter or a few times per day? Definitely make it an action of some sort - minor. Ummm I still find it incredibly unbalanced. There are some crazy higher level dailies and encounters. The ability to refresh them could be very unbalanced. I just imagine a dwarf with easily 15+ healing surges dishing out tons of damage from dailies.
#5
Qube
May 08, 2009 4:50:01 I link the idea, but 'dropping to 0' is not good: its too easy to heal afterward ...

@Kryx: number of times per encounter shouldn't be limited (Goku uses kao-ken x20, while he shoudn't use it more then twice ...). but that doesn't mean I don't agree there should be a way to balance it ...

First I think there should be a list of meta conditions to use it
there should be a high price of failure
characters on low hp should be tempted to use it
the conditions of failure should not be easely undone ...
#6
Omni-Wyvernil
May 23, 2009 10:05:59
I link the idea, but 'dropping to 0' is not good: its too easy to heal afterward ...

@Kryx: number of times per encounter shouldn't be limited (Goku uses kao-ken x20, while he shoudn't use it more then twice ...). but that doesn't mean I don't agree there should be a way to balance it ...

First I think there should be a list of meta conditions to use it
there should be a high price of failure
characters on low hp should be tempted to use it
the conditions of failure should not be easely undone ...

Maybe have it so failing the saving throw burns ALL your healing surges (or half of them)? If you have no healing surges left and you fail the save again, then you drop to 0 HP. It's quite a bit harder to recover healing surges than HP without taking an extended rest (and depending on the campaign, the party might not have that luxury all the time).
#7
ff6shadow
May 23, 2009 10:12:51 I've been expermienting with letting near death PCs (HP below their Surge Value) burn 4 healing surges to use an expended daily, or 2 to use an expended encounter power.

In three sessions (8 battles) it's been used twice. First time was a Fighter who burned 4 to use his Boundless Endurance utility (regeneration whiel bloodied. Good pick) a second time, and the second was the party cleric, who burned 2 to reuse his Healing Strike.
#8
bone_naga
May 23, 2009 10:14:07 I would say make it cost 2 surges, with the character losing another 2 if he fails the save. Make each of those abilities at least cost a feat. Limit the use of these abilities to 1/day. If you have no surges before you fail the save, you drop to 0. If you have no surges when you activate the ability, you drop to 0 after using the power, and then if you fail the saving throw, you die.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Omni-Wyvernil May 07, 2009 22:15:46	Just looked around a bit here and realized that there's a lot of "power with a price"-type abilities in certain forms of media. In D&D, there's a few paladin abilities, for instance, that spend healing surges, but otherwise there's not much out there. So here's a few ideas to cover the 'risking your life to cast the technique you need to win' concept. Forbidden Technique You strain your abilities and your life force to recall an ability a second time. Tier: Paragon Prerequisite: Level 11 Benefit: Spend a healing surge. You may reuse an encounter power which you have already expended. If you have already used this ability once in this encounter, you must make a saving throw afterwards. Failing the save immediately drops you to 0 HP. Special Forbidden Technique You tempt fate and throw your life in the balance to unleash that one power you need. Tier: Epic Prerequisite: Level 21, Forbidden Technique Benefit: Spend a healing surge. You may reuse a daily power which you have already expended. You must make a saving throw afterwards. Failing the save immediately drops you to 0 HP. The 'save or drop to 0' element is there for balance and to prevent players from going "nova" and blowing all their surges in a single encounter. Attempting to do that carries a tremendous risk which the player shouldn't take unless it is absolutely needed. In your opinion, what would it take to balance such an idea? Is this even a good idea? PEACH would be appreciated.
#2 kryx May 07, 2009 22:23:05	I would take heed to how Salve of Power did it. It's from Adventure's Vault. It lets you refresh a daily of level 5 or lower for expending a healing surge. Without level restrictions I think it's pretty OP as it stands. And I'm not too fond of "make a save or fall unconscious". I would come up with something different. Are these feats? Or powers given to all your players? If they were feats it would be more balanced. I would still add level restrictions for the encounters/dailies being refreshed, maybe add more feats to increase the level. I know it sounds like lots of feats, but being able to refresh a daily for a healing surge can be incredibly powerful. You could do some crazy DPR with that ability.
#3 Omni-Wyvernil May 07, 2009 22:30:36	I would take heed to how Salve of Power did it. It's from Adventure's Vault. It lets you refresh a daily of level 5 or lower for expending a healing surge. Without level restrictions I think it's pretty OP as it stands. And I'm not too fond of "make a save or fall unconscious". I would come up with something different. Are these feats? Or powers given to all your players? If they were feats it would be more balanced. I would still add level restrictions for the encounters/dailies being refreshed, maybe add more feats to increase the level. I know it sounds like lots of feats, but being able to refresh a daily for a healing surge can be incredibly powerful. You could do some crazy DPR with that ability. These are meant to be feats. Forbidden Technique is Paragon, and Special Forbidden Technique could be either Paragon or Epic (Epic might be more balanced, since recharging a daily is quite powerful). What sort of alternative to the 'save or fall unconscious' would be suggested? (Maybe make a save or take damage equal to the amount the power would have dealt.)
#4 kryx May 08, 2009 0:11:19	Even at that level I still find it very hard to be balanced. Especially for characters that have many many healing surges. I would definitely limit it to once per encounter or a few times per day? Definitely make it an action of some sort - minor. Ummm I still find it incredibly unbalanced. There are some crazy higher level dailies and encounters. The ability to refresh them could be very unbalanced. I just imagine a dwarf with easily 15+ healing surges dishing out tons of damage from dailies.
#5 Qube May 08, 2009 4:50:01	I link the idea, but 'dropping to 0' is not good: its too easy to heal afterward ... @Kryx: number of times per encounter shouldn't be limited (Goku uses kao-ken x20, while he shoudn't use it more then twice ...). but that doesn't mean I don't agree there should be a way to balance it ... First I think there should be a list of meta conditions to use it there should be a high price of failure characters on low hp should be tempted to use it the conditions of failure should not be easely undone ...
#6 Omni-Wyvernil May 23, 2009 10:05:59	I link the idea, but 'dropping to 0' is not good: its too easy to heal afterward ... @Kryx: number of times per encounter shouldn't be limited (Goku uses kao-ken x20, while he shoudn't use it more then twice ...). but that doesn't mean I don't agree there should be a way to balance it ... First I think there should be a list of meta conditions to use it there should be a high price of failure characters on low hp should be tempted to use it the conditions of failure should not be easely undone ... Maybe have it so failing the saving throw burns ALL your healing surges (or half of them)? If you have no healing surges left and you fail the save again, then you drop to 0 HP. It's quite a bit harder to recover healing surges than HP without taking an extended rest (and depending on the campaign, the party might not have that luxury all the time).
#7 ff6shadow May 23, 2009 10:12:51	I've been expermienting with letting near death PCs (HP below their Surge Value) burn 4 healing surges to use an expended daily, or 2 to use an expended encounter power. In three sessions (8 battles) it's been used twice. First time was a Fighter who burned 4 to use his Boundless Endurance utility (regeneration whiel bloodied. Good pick) a second time, and the second was the party cleric, who burned 2 to reuse his Healing Strike.
#8 bone_naga May 23, 2009 10:14:07	I would say make it cost 2 surges, with the character losing another 2 if he fails the save. Make each of those abilities at least cost a feat. Limit the use of these abilities to 1/day. If you have no surges before you fail the save, you drop to 0. If you have no surges when you activate the ability, you drop to 0 after using the power, and then if you fail the saving throw, you die.