FREEDOM!?!?!?!? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

FREEDOM!?!?!?!?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
shiftystylin
Jun 04, 2009 19:02:07 Hey all,

My friends and I have been playing dnd on and off for a few years now and its always been a similar twist. A world is created, our characters either meet or are already well met. An NPC is introduced that guides us or forces us into situations.

It's only recently upon writing a new storyline I've decided that we aren't making the game linear enough as it can be. I've scrapped the story I was writing but kept the world it was set in.

Whats the best way to let everyone know that they have freedom in a story. How do you let them decide where a character goes when you cant predict what they are going to do? I am not very good at either anticipating my players moves or making up story lines on the spot (kind of a major flaw of a DM i guess but i make up for it in my story telling)

And also, is there any possibility someone has come up with a wheel of time or eye of the world campaign (Robert Jordan?)

Thanks in advance... please be kind to the noob :P
#2
matthewswift
Jun 04, 2009 21:22:21 Give them comparable options: A fork in the road, with 2 or more differing trails is enough. It will take a lot more work because you will essentially be making tons of mini stories instead of one long one.

An example would be to produce two factions with differing goals, that at the same time interfere with eachother. Players can be part of either, both or neither if they want, and you adjust the world according to their options.

I must warn you though, a buddy of mine tried this on us, and we ended up taking little to no action most of the time. Your players need to come up with an objective if you're not. If they don't you won't have a game, but a sandbox with some witnesses.
#3
untamed_soul
Jun 04, 2009 21:37:06
Give them comparable options: A fork in the road, with 2 or more differing trails is enough. It will take a lot more work because you will essentially be making tons of mini stories instead of one long one.

An example would be to produce two factions with differing goals, that at the same time interfere with eachother. Players can be part of either, both or neither if they want, and you adjust the world according to their options.

I must warn you though, a buddy of mine tried this on us, and we ended up taking little to no action most of the time. Your players need to come up with an objective if you're not. If they don't you won't have a game, but a sandbox with some witnesses.

I've had the same experience as MatthewSwift. In many open ended games, it can be frustrating to the both the players and the dm as no one has a clear sense of where the Campaign is going.

The main trick is to create the a linear campaign to allow branching off of the main storyline so the Players don't feel always compelled to take the plot hooks thrown at them.
#4
descrii
Jun 05, 2009 3:28:39 You might give them a larger goal to pursue with no real guidance about how to do so.

Here's an example, but you could probably create a better one if your PCs have backgrounds. You could create a reason why they need a huge amount of money. Maybe they need to buy a really potent spell, maybe an NPC buddy is in debt to a pit fiend, maybe there's a rival adventuring group that challenges them to a gold-off. I like that last one, actually...

A rival group issues a challenge - everyone will meet back here in one year and have a neutral third party assess their value. Whichever party is worth more wins, and the other party has to become their henchmen and carry their loot for a year.

So that's it. Now the party has one year to get as rich as possible and they have to figure out how. If they're like most gamers, your players will start hatching really foolish plans that will drive the plot for many episodes to come.

You'd better have a big sandbox for them to play in, though. When they say they're researching legendary treasures you'll need to offer several. When they want to rob a rich merchant you'll have to come up with several warehouses and estates. Dragon hoards, borderlands to claim, etc.
#5
dungeonmastergaz
Jun 05, 2009 4:59:12 Some good ideas there.

Following MatthewSwift's "fork in the road" example - I would give your players the illusion of choice.

a) Do they follow the beggar's drunken rantings about the king's treasure horde rumoured to be hidden in his burial mound?
b) Do they answer the woodsmen's cry for help to destroy the demon that attacked their woodland camp?
c) Do they accept the local lords quest to recover his fathers sword that was stolen some years ago?

It doesn't matter what fork they take, because the sword is amongst the king's treasure in the burial mound in the forest guarded by the demon who has been attacking the woodsmen! They end up at the same place anyway. By the time they've finished the first adventure and make their way back to the "fork in the road" your campaign will have developed, changed and grown and, adapting to that, you should have had time to prepare the next adventure for them.

It's less preparation and work for you as DM, and the players will still feel like they have made the choice and not been railroaded.

If you really want to have an adventure for every fork in the road just grab a bunch of appropriate-level pre-made adventures from Dungeon, or somewhere. Just try not to overburden yourself and have fun playing.

DMG
#6
descrii
Jun 05, 2009 5:32:46
If you really want to have an adventure for every fork in the road just grab a bunch of appropriate-level pre-made adventures from Dungeon, or somewhere. Just try not to overburden yourself and have fun playing.

You don't really have to have every location and person in the world planned out to give real choice, though!

You could do it by guiding the players to have a conversation about what they'll do next at the end of each session. That way you have time to plan for next session and they've determined what the adventure will be, not you.
#7
shiftystylin
Jun 05, 2009 5:57:03 Thats all excellent advice. Thank you all.
I really like the idea of the rival adventure group and the other storylines are great hooks too.

This is the entrance so far:-
2 (out of 5) of the players know eachother in game. Ones an advisor to the queen (warlord) and another is a royal bard. They are based in a massive city which is holding a festival called "The hunt of the horn" (backstory ripped off from the wheel of time, if you havent read it go buy the first book now!) which is a festival where adventurers gather to tell the stories they have fore gone trying to find this legendary horn. The horn will tie in with a separate story that happens in the background as rumours at first. Another legend comes to power and is in search for it.

The other characters are a rogue who is on his way to make a fortune from such a massive festival. An Avenger who acts as an assassin and has a mark who is appearing at the festival also and the last character is a mercenary battlemage looking for work.
#8
dungeonmastergaz
Jun 05, 2009 9:55:17 It sounds like you’ve already got a good campaign idea on the make, along with some PCs who will easily fit into your story.

There are many different kinds of playing styles, so no particular method is right or wrong. In my experience, it’s only been necessary for me to lay out set choices for my players just to get the very first adventure moving. Once the adventure has begun the player’s choices are made during the course of play. To allow my players this freedom I create two sandboxes, and to explain I’ll use your campaign idea as my example.

The first sandbox is yours, the DMs: The World Sandbox. This sandbox is your world and setting, and everything that happens in it that is outside the player’s influence. In this sandbox you know where the legendary horn is, who keeps it and what is required to retrieve it. You know who the rival adventurers are, their power and what they intend to do to beat your players to the horn. You control this sandbox; it’s a huge sandbox, and you can see all of it at all times.

The second sandbox is for the players: The adventure. This sandbox is small compared to yours, and the players can only see as far as its hypothetical horizon because you set its boundaries to make it easy for you, the DM, to control and react to. However, these boundaries are invisible to the players, so they can make whatever choices they like without realising how limited they really are. Does the Avenger kill his mark, gaining an enemy in the mark’s relative who, in turn, will become a new challenge in the future, or does he spare him out of pity and gain an indebted ally, but an enemy out of his original patron? The player of the avenger must weigh up his options and make the choice. Does the mercenary battlemage find work and complete the job, gaining a reputation as a trustworthy and reliable employee, or does he choose to betray his employer, sending his business under, or even usurping control of it and making an enemy of the local guild? It’s his choice. Does the rogue make his fortune by cheating at gambling, picking people’s pockets, or by legitimate use of skill and heroics? He can make enemies and allies whichever choice he makes, but it’s his choice. These are all big choices made in the tiny (compared to your world sandbox) adventure sandbox.

If the players decide to make the choice of leaving the city because they fancy exploring the Feywild and don’t really care about the horn, stop the game. Create a new adventure sandbox and let them explore the Feywild within its invisible boundaries.

The consequences in the world sandbox are the rival adventurers get the horn (oh dear!). All you need do then is play in your world sandbox for a bit to see what they do with it, and whatever you decide they do can’t be influenced by the players. Show the players the consequence of their actions within the confines of their Feywild adventure sandbox with the blast from the horn echoing through the Feywild where the players hear it and see it’s affect as it causes the plant-life to begin to wither and die, causing panic amongst the eladrin and gnomes. In your world sandbox, out of the player’s sight, the formorians feel the horn’s power too and want to get their hands on this artefact to use against the eladrin.

Players should be restricted to playing in the adventure sandbox. If they start playing in the world sandbox, they’re not players anymore. They’re DMs.

DMs should observe what choices his players make in the adventure sandbox and adapt the world sandbox accordingly, beyond the sight of the PCs. That’s what determines what the next adventure will be about, and creates the sense that the player’s choices, even when made in a controlled and limited environment, still influence the direction of the campaign.

Its great fun however you do it, and I hope I explained this concept well. This is a description of my own particular play style though, so I don't expect everyone to agree with it. However, my game runs very smoothly using this technique because the players are free to do whatever they want to do within their sandbox, and can then witness the consequences of their actions/inaction in the world sandbox. This continues to suspend their disbelief, gives a good sense of continuity to the campaign, and creates the illusion of a living, breathing world that the players can be an influential part of.

DMG
#9
falcongk81
Jun 05, 2009 10:47:00 There is a great thread that was running in the Whats a DM to do forum about this same topic. There was some really great ideas in there, so I figured I'd link you to that.

Similar thread

Hope that helps.
#10
nightmare_scenario
Jun 06, 2009 17:10:03 Limited sandbox: cave.

Have a railroad to a certain point, then let them go nuts. This works awesome if you have players new to the system. The railroading makes sure they have time to learn the system, get a level or two under their belt, then start giving them options. A cave is a perfect way to do that for lower-level PC's because tunnels only offer as many paths as you draw on the map.

For example, they travel through the underdark and find a huge carved stone door marked "The Tomb of St. Miriam." Two choices: go in or don't. Then later, give them a fork in the road, left or right. One leads to a dungeon, one skips it and doesn't give them the loot, xp or storyline advantages of a new dungeon.

Then, the path eventually leads to a giant open cavern with several villages and side-tunnels. Have a random encounter to soak up time so you know which way they're likely to go (or just mess up the dungeoneering skill check modifiers and they'll end up where you've got material written if they decide to go somewhere you didn't expect).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shiftystylin Jun 04, 2009 19:02:07	Hey all, My friends and I have been playing dnd on and off for a few years now and its always been a similar twist. A world is created, our characters either meet or are already well met. An NPC is introduced that guides us or forces us into situations. It's only recently upon writing a new storyline I've decided that we aren't making the game linear enough as it can be. I've scrapped the story I was writing but kept the world it was set in. Whats the best way to let everyone know that they have freedom in a story. How do you let them decide where a character goes when you cant predict what they are going to do? I am not very good at either anticipating my players moves or making up story lines on the spot (kind of a major flaw of a DM i guess but i make up for it in my story telling) And also, is there any possibility someone has come up with a wheel of time or eye of the world campaign (Robert Jordan?) Thanks in advance... please be kind to the noob :P
#2 matthewswift Jun 04, 2009 21:22:21	Give them comparable options: A fork in the road, with 2 or more differing trails is enough. It will take a lot more work because you will essentially be making tons of mini stories instead of one long one. An example would be to produce two factions with differing goals, that at the same time interfere with eachother. Players can be part of either, both or neither if they want, and you adjust the world according to their options. I must warn you though, a buddy of mine tried this on us, and we ended up taking little to no action most of the time. Your players need to come up with an objective if you're not. If they don't you won't have a game, but a sandbox with some witnesses.
#3 untamed_soul Jun 04, 2009 21:37:06	Give them comparable options: A fork in the road, with 2 or more differing trails is enough. It will take a lot more work because you will essentially be making tons of mini stories instead of one long one. An example would be to produce two factions with differing goals, that at the same time interfere with eachother. Players can be part of either, both or neither if they want, and you adjust the world according to their options. I must warn you though, a buddy of mine tried this on us, and we ended up taking little to no action most of the time. Your players need to come up with an objective if you're not. If they don't you won't have a game, but a sandbox with some witnesses. I've had the same experience as MatthewSwift. In many open ended games, it can be frustrating to the both the players and the dm as no one has a clear sense of where the Campaign is going. The main trick is to create the a linear campaign to allow branching off of the main storyline so the Players don't feel always compelled to take the plot hooks thrown at them.
#4 descrii Jun 05, 2009 3:28:39	You might give them a larger goal to pursue with no real guidance about how to do so. Here's an example, but you could probably create a better one if your PCs have backgrounds. You could create a reason why they need a huge amount of money. Maybe they need to buy a really potent spell, maybe an NPC buddy is in debt to a pit fiend, maybe there's a rival adventuring group that challenges them to a gold-off. I like that last one, actually... A rival group issues a challenge - everyone will meet back here in one year and have a neutral third party assess their value. Whichever party is worth more wins, and the other party has to become their henchmen and carry their loot for a year. So that's it. Now the party has one year to get as rich as possible and they have to figure out how. If they're like most gamers, your players will start hatching really foolish plans that will drive the plot for many episodes to come. You'd better have a big sandbox for them to play in, though. When they say they're researching legendary treasures you'll need to offer several. When they want to rob a rich merchant you'll have to come up with several warehouses and estates. Dragon hoards, borderlands to claim, etc.
#5 dungeonmastergaz Jun 05, 2009 4:59:12	Some good ideas there. Following MatthewSwift's "fork in the road" example - I would give your players the illusion of choice. a) Do they follow the beggar's drunken rantings about the king's treasure horde rumoured to be hidden in his burial mound? b) Do they answer the woodsmen's cry for help to destroy the demon that attacked their woodland camp? c) Do they accept the local lords quest to recover his fathers sword that was stolen some years ago? It doesn't matter what fork they take, because the sword is amongst the king's treasure in the burial mound in the forest guarded by the demon who has been attacking the woodsmen! They end up at the same place anyway. By the time they've finished the first adventure and make their way back to the "fork in the road" your campaign will have developed, changed and grown and, adapting to that, you should have had time to prepare the next adventure for them. It's less preparation and work for you as DM, and the players will still feel like they have made the choice and not been railroaded. If you really want to have an adventure for every fork in the road just grab a bunch of appropriate-level pre-made adventures from Dungeon, or somewhere. Just try not to overburden yourself and have fun playing. DMG
#6 descrii Jun 05, 2009 5:32:46	If you really want to have an adventure for every fork in the road just grab a bunch of appropriate-level pre-made adventures from Dungeon, or somewhere. Just try not to overburden yourself and have fun playing. You don't really have to have every location and person in the world planned out to give real choice, though! You could do it by guiding the players to have a conversation about what they'll do next at the end of each session. That way you have time to plan for next session and they've determined what the adventure will be, not you.
#7 shiftystylin Jun 05, 2009 5:57:03	Thats all excellent advice. Thank you all. I really like the idea of the rival adventure group and the other storylines are great hooks too. This is the entrance so far:- 2 (out of 5) of the players know eachother in game. Ones an advisor to the queen (warlord) and another is a royal bard. They are based in a massive city which is holding a festival called "The hunt of the horn" (backstory ripped off from the wheel of time, if you havent read it go buy the first book now!) which is a festival where adventurers gather to tell the stories they have fore gone trying to find this legendary horn. The horn will tie in with a separate story that happens in the background as rumours at first. Another legend comes to power and is in search for it. The other characters are a rogue who is on his way to make a fortune from such a massive festival. An Avenger who acts as an assassin and has a mark who is appearing at the festival also and the last character is a mercenary battlemage looking for work.
#8 dungeonmastergaz Jun 05, 2009 9:55:17	It sounds like you’ve already got a good campaign idea on the make, along with some PCs who will easily fit into your story. There are many different kinds of playing styles, so no particular method is right or wrong. In my experience, it’s only been necessary for me to lay out set choices for my players just to get the very first adventure moving. Once the adventure has begun the player’s choices are made during the course of play. To allow my players this freedom I create two sandboxes, and to explain I’ll use your campaign idea as my example. The first sandbox is yours, the DMs: The World Sandbox. This sandbox is your world and setting, and everything that happens in it that is outside the player’s influence. In this sandbox you know where the legendary horn is, who keeps it and what is required to retrieve it. You know who the rival adventurers are, their power and what they intend to do to beat your players to the horn. You control this sandbox; it’s a huge sandbox, and you can see all of it at all times. The second sandbox is for the players: The adventure. This sandbox is small compared to yours, and the players can only see as far as its hypothetical horizon because you set its boundaries to make it easy for you, the DM, to control and react to. However, these boundaries are invisible to the players, so they can make whatever choices they like without realising how limited they really are. Does the Avenger kill his mark, gaining an enemy in the mark’s relative who, in turn, will become a new challenge in the future, or does he spare him out of pity and gain an indebted ally, but an enemy out of his original patron? The player of the avenger must weigh up his options and make the choice. Does the mercenary battlemage find work and complete the job, gaining a reputation as a trustworthy and reliable employee, or does he choose to betray his employer, sending his business under, or even usurping control of it and making an enemy of the local guild? It’s his choice. Does the rogue make his fortune by cheating at gambling, picking people’s pockets, or by legitimate use of skill and heroics? He can make enemies and allies whichever choice he makes, but it’s his choice. These are all big choices made in the tiny (compared to your world sandbox) adventure sandbox. If the players decide to make the choice of leaving the city because they fancy exploring the Feywild and don’t really care about the horn, stop the game. Create a new adventure sandbox and let them explore the Feywild within its invisible boundaries. The consequences in the world sandbox are the rival adventurers get the horn (oh dear!). All you need do then is play in your world sandbox for a bit to see what they do with it, and whatever you decide they do can’t be influenced by the players. Show the players the consequence of their actions within the confines of their Feywild adventure sandbox with the blast from the horn echoing through the Feywild where the players hear it and see it’s affect as it causes the plant-life to begin to wither and die, causing panic amongst the eladrin and gnomes. In your world sandbox, out of the player’s sight, the formorians feel the horn’s power too and want to get their hands on this artefact to use against the eladrin. Players should be restricted to playing in the adventure sandbox. If they start playing in the world sandbox, they’re not players anymore. They’re DMs. DMs should observe what choices his players make in the adventure sandbox and adapt the world sandbox accordingly, beyond the sight of the PCs. That’s what determines what the next adventure will be about, and creates the sense that the player’s choices, even when made in a controlled and limited environment, still influence the direction of the campaign. Its great fun however you do it, and I hope I explained this concept well. This is a description of my own particular play style though, so I don't expect everyone to agree with it. However, my game runs very smoothly using this technique because the players are free to do whatever they want to do within their sandbox, and can then witness the consequences of their actions/inaction in the world sandbox. This continues to suspend their disbelief, gives a good sense of continuity to the campaign, and creates the illusion of a living, breathing world that the players can be an influential part of. DMG
#9 falcongk81 Jun 05, 2009 10:47:00	There is a great thread that was running in the Whats a DM to do forum about this same topic. There was some really great ideas in there, so I figured I'd link you to that. Similar thread Hope that helps.
#10 nightmare_scenario Jun 06, 2009 17:10:03	Limited sandbox: cave. Have a railroad to a certain point, then let them go nuts. This works awesome if you have players new to the system. The railroading makes sure they have time to learn the system, get a level or two under their belt, then start giving them options. A cave is a perfect way to do that for lower-level PC's because tunnels only offer as many paths as you draw on the map. For example, they travel through the underdark and find a huge carved stone door marked "The Tomb of St. Miriam." Two choices: go in or don't. Then later, give them a fork in the road, left or right. One leads to a dungeon, one skips it and doesn't give them the loot, xp or storyline advantages of a new dungeon. Then, the path eventually leads to a giant open cavern with several villages and side-tunnels. Have a random encounter to soak up time so you know which way they're likely to go (or just mess up the dungeoneering skill check modifiers and they'll end up where you've got material written if they decide to go somewhere you didn't expect).