For a good chunk of people, two is enough, but in certain situations it would be really nice to have the option of a third waiting on the bench. There are some who would argue that the basic ranged and melee attacks are enough, but it would be nice to be able to pick from your own or a similar class so you can use a stat that is good for your class, not just Strength for melee and Dex for ranged.
Anything along the lines of say, a feat to pick up an extra at-will from your class, and/or a multiclass feat to pick up an at-will from your multiclass class.
I wouldn't mind seeing an item or feat that lets you store an at-will power, then switch it out as a daily power (item or utility), but adding a straight-up at-will is excessive.
As a human feat, it might not be so bad... but as a normal feat, no. Completely negates any advantages that being a human would grant.
Well, not completely. They'd still receive an extra feat, skills, a flexible ability score bump, and access to all those nifty human-only rules elements. But it's probably not something that should be added without serious consideration as to how it'll affect the game.
Those of you saying "that's the Human's defining ability"-- there's nothing to prevent humans from taking said feat. That's like saying, it's not worth it to play an elf because "the avenger gets to roll twice, and that was the elf's defining ability".
I see no problems with it. Heck, it might even be good to give everyone a 3rd at-will (Humans would get 4) at level 4 to help get from the "new character smell" to "my character has enough powers to be interesting".
Those of you saying "that's the Human's defining ability"-- there's nothing to prevent humans from taking said feat. That's like saying, it's not worth it to play an elf because "the avenger gets to roll twice, and that was the elf's defining ability".
Exactly, not to mention that you would being gaining a 3rd at-will that humans have, but your losing a feat slot that humans would get to keep (almost making it worse than being a human once you've blown whatever racial your race gets).
There are some interesting class combo/roles out there, and while Melee Training is nice your option for a ranged weapon are Strength and Dexterity (not bad, but not open to everyone)
And lets be honest, can anyone out there who is multi-classing not at one point wanted one of the at-wills from their multiclass?
I see no problems with it. Heck, it might even be good to give everyone a 3rd at-will (Humans would get 4) at level 4 to help get from the "new character smell" to "my character has enough powers to be interesting".
Those of you saying "that's the Human's defining ability"-- there's nothing to prevent humans from taking said feat. That's like saying, it's not worth it to play an elf because "the avenger gets to roll twice, and that was the elf's defining ability".
Actually, a more appropriate one would be "hey, we should make a feat that grants dragon's breath". The avenger's ability is not the same as the elf's. It does not allow a reroll like the elf's ability, but rather allows an avenger in the right situation to roll two dice and take the better of the two. Moreover, an avenger can use the elven ability to roll 4 dice.
However, the human ability is exactly an extra at-will.
Actually, a more appropriate one would be "hey, we should make a feat that grants dragon's breath". The avenger's ability is not the same as the elf's. It does not allow a reroll like the elf's ability, but rather allows an avenger in the right situation to roll two dice and take the better of the two. Moreover, an avenger can use the elven ability to roll 4 dice.
However, the human ability is exactly an extra at-will.
Yep. And this would be an at-will at the cost of a feat, while the humans through diversity gets exactly a free at-will that doesn't cost them a feat at all!
A little more powerful then what you would normally see at that level. However, I'm not sure that it'd break anything. I'll have to think about it some more, obviously.
Edit: At Epic Tier! That's what I meant!
Comparing a non-human with the theoretical feat, to a human -- they may now have the same number of at-wills, but the human has two more options to pick for feats (one for being human, one for not needing / wanting the feat).
Or, they both get the feat, the non-human has three, and the human has four.
Consider: Human Soul (the revenant racial feat) doesn't give a third at-will -- it gives the human NAD bonus.
Yep. And this would be an at-will at the cost of a feat, while the humans through diversity gets exactly a free at-will that doesn't cost them a feat at all!
Why not simply give all exclusive abilities as a feat? Make a feat that allows people to shapeshift into any humanoid form at will like the doppelganger, or a feat that allows you to rest only for 4 hours without sleeping? Hell, let's make a feat that grants a +2 bonus to an attribute, so long as you haven't already gotten the feat for that attribute and didn't get a bonus for your race.
I'm sorry, but I think racial traits should stay racial traits to some degree. The advantage to playing a specific race is lost if you take that away. It would make it better to simply make every character the same race-wise with three bonus feats you can spend on whatever to define the aspects that are racial.
Elven Druids have 3 at-wills.
Human Druids have 4.
Tiefling Warlocks with Twin-fold Pact have 3 at-wills.
Human Warlocks with the same feat have four.
I think you're looking at this the wrong way.
Other players can copy that by chosing a specific class, but it costs them the freedom of having any class.
Like other players can get a power that lets them teleport, but it doesn't diminish the quality of my Eladrin Fey Step power because I got it for free, but they had to give something up (gold, item slot, choice in class) to get it.
So does that make Fey Step worse? No.
Would a feat to get an at-will diminish the human racial? I don't think so.
Are there any rumors or information on the possibility of a feat to let a player pick up another at-will power?
As a Wizard player, I say that this idea would be awesome!
Until we get it, I just keep a lot of Master's wands of X tucked into my belt.
Exactly, not to mention that you would being gaining a 3rd at-will that humans have, but your losing a feat slot that humans would get to keep (almost making it worse than being a human once you've blown whatever racial your race gets).
There are some interesting class combo/roles out there, and while Melee Training is nice your option for a ranged weapon are Strength and Dexterity (not bad, but not open to everyone)
What class are you talking about that doesn't have strength or dex as a primary stat and doesn't have a ranged at-will power? I can't seem to find it in the CharBuilder or any of the books...
And lets be honest, can anyone out there who is multi-classing not at one point wanted one of the at-wills from their multiclass?
That's what paragon multiclassing is for. In fact, it's the only thing paragon multiclassing is for.
Guys, it's very simple. Which at-will powers you choose is part of what defines your character, just like which encounter, daily, and utility powers you choose is part of what defines your character. A single feat for another at-will would be a must-take for most characters, and would ultimately just make everyone's characters look that much more alike.
What class are you talking about that doesn't have strength or dex as a primary stat and doesn't have a ranged at-will power? I can't seem to find it in the CharBuilder or any of the books...
That's what paragon multiclassing is for. In fact, it's the only thing paragon multiclassing is for.
Guys, it's very simple. Which at-will powers you choose is part of what defines your character, just like which encounter, daily, and utility powers you choose is part of what defines your character. A single feat for another at-will would be a must-take for most characters, and would ultimately just make everyone's characters look that much more alike.
Paragon multi-classing gives you one of the other classes at-will powers? Didn't know that. I also don't believe that everyone would take it. Like you have said, most classes have a way to toss in a melee for the ranged classes or a ranged for the melee classes, but there are a few instances and character types people want to built to match the character in their head.
Without the feat, you can't do it at all. So, what is the harm of having the feat?
What's the harm? It devalues humans. "But they get it for free!" No, they don't. Note that lack of a racial power?
Paragon multi-classing gives you one of the other classes at-will powers? Didn't know that. I also don't believe that everyone would take it. Like you have said, most classes have a way to toss in a melee for the ranged classes or a ranged for the melee classes, but there are a few instances and character types people want to built to match the character in their head.
Without the feat, you can't do it at all. So, what is the harm of having the feat?
What do you mean match the character in your head? Very few at-wills are notably different from each other from a fluff perspective, so it shouldn't make any different to the character in your head which at-wills you pick.
If you think most characters wouldn't want it, go ask CharOps. Ask them how many of their characters would give up a feat for an extra at-will. I bet you it will be 75% or more; almost every build that's not either built around picking one at-will and turbo-charging it (magic missile spam builds, mainly) or already has all the at-will powers from its class that are any good and use the right attack stat (certain warlock and druid builds, for example).
Long story short, gaining an extra at-will for just a feat is both overpowered and reduces character diversity.
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.
What's the harm? It devalues humans. "But they get it for free!" No, they don't. Note that lack of a racial power?
Exactly. They have few of the advantages that other races have. They do not get a racial skill bonus which stacks with skill training, do not get racial enhancements like most races do, and do not get a racial encounter power. Instead, they get an at-will, a trained skill, defense bonuses and a feat. Of those three, only the at-will is unique to the humans.
If this were to become a feat, it would have to be a human feat if it existed at all, and even then it might be something we would restrict from half-human races.
I really don't understand the "such a feat would devalue humans". Is the issue that all classes only have 2 or 3 really good at wills? And it can't devalue humans if they can also get the feat -- then they have four at-wills, and even more options than the other.
I know many warlocks who would kill for a feat like this, as currently, being Human is the *only* way to pick up Eldritch Strike (Or Half-elf non-warlocks, or a PHBIII Hybrid)
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.
Except Revenants?
Except Revenants?
Taking Racial powers is the whole point of revenants. So making a generally available feat for a new At will and you devalued both humans AND revanants. :P
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.
What's the harm? It devalues humans. "But they get it for free!" No, they don't. Note that lack of a racial power?
well... again you miss the point. Them getting it for free is their racial power.
Every race has a racial. You can find something simular to all of them in feats, items, powers from classes accesable to all players, but at the cost of a feat slot, gold and an item slot, or class choice.
Humans get a extra at-will power. (if the feat existed) To everyone else it would cost a feat slot.
Eladrin get Fey Step power. If you get a Rod of the Feywild or level in a class that has a teleport power (there are many) they you get Fey Step with another name, but it cost gold or your restricted to that class.
So at this point were already "devaluing and overpowered" for "giving away" the Eladrin racial (even though you have to give something up for it) why not humans also?
how many of their characters would give up a feat for an extra at-will. I bet you it will be 75% or more; almost every build that's not either built around picking one at-will and turbo-charging it (magic missile spam builds, mainly) or already has all the at-will powers from its class that are any good and use the right attack stat (certain warlock and druid builds, for example)
So 3 out of 4 people in the group pick it up. The interesting thing is that I'm trying to pick it up so my warlock who through game events are pushing him to need a melee ability, but I don't want to be stuck with Eyebite as my only ranged attack once my limited powers are spent. If I go with a melee basic it will cost me a feat anyway to use the stat I need, if I go with eldritch strike over blast then my last ranged at-will is either a basic (dex using a ranged weapon) or Eyebite (1d6 and I lose the diversity of attacks that target different saves).
But I can see what you mean. If I have Eldritch Strike and Blast, and Eyebite thanks to a feat, then I'm essentially the same as the Paladin bent on cleansing the world of undead, and the power-hungry Wizard, and the Shaman cleansing the land with her spirit animal. I mean, the collective 9 at-wills we all have leave us an individuals, but if we add one or two more at-wills to that, we might as well all just take turns playing the same character.
Have it be Heroic Teir to give you another class at-will as an encounter power (sort of like how Arcane Initiate gives you another classes at-will as an encounter power), and then a Paragon Teir that makes it at-will again.
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.
What's the harm? It devalues humans. "But they get it for free!" No, they don't. Note that lack of a racial power?
You know that Warlocks already have this feat:
Twofold Pact
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, Eldritch Pact class feature
Benefit: You gain a second Eldritch Pact. You gain the at-will spell and pact boon of both pacts. You can use only one of your pact boon benefits at a time, however.
...Sits waiting for the Wizard version...
I could see a paragon feat, maybe, that allows you to gain an at-will from your own class as an encounter power.
You know that Warlocks already have this feat:
Twofold Pact
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, Eldritch Pact class feature
Benefit: You gain a second Eldritch Pact. You gain the at-will spell and pact boon of both pacts. You can use only one of your pact boon benefits at a time, however.
...Sits waiting for the Wizard version...
Except that non-human warlocks don't get choose their at-wills. Twofold pact finally lets them choose one.
If all wizards were forced to take magic missile and then orb wizards were locked into taking thunderwave, staff wizards locked into taking ray of frost and wand wizards locked into taking scorching burst THEN you could expect a similar wizard feat.
You know that Warlocks already have this feat:
Twofold Pact
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, Eldritch Pact class feature
Benefit: You gain a second Eldritch Pact. You gain the at-will spell and pact boon of both pacts. You can use only one of your pact boon benefits at a time, however.
...Sits waiting for the Wizard version...
Probably because Warlocks don't normally get to really choose their at-wills. They get Eldritch blast, the most boring at-will power EVER (Hey, it's a longbow!), and one other thing inextricably tied to their choice of pact. If you've ever played it, too, that second at-will gets very little usage because of how situational it almost always is.
So yes, it's fine for the warlock. But for other classes (Especially controllers, and ESPECIALLY the wizard) it is far from balanced. I could maybe see it happening in Epic tier. Maybe. But it's still not likely.
As written, the only way to get that ability is to be a human, because Eldritch Blast and your pact's at-will come from "class features", and thus cannot be retrained.
And that feat still doesn't allow Eldritch Strike.
As written, the only way to get that ability is to be a human, because Eldritch Blast and your pact's at-will come from "class features", and thus cannot be retrained.
Yes, this is exceedingly frustrating.
Yes, this is exceedingly frustrating.
Yet it may also be intentional.
If there isn't anything particulary broken about eventually getting another at-will, then it would be nice to have.
But what I'd really like to know is if any of the devs have tossed the idea around, and if so what their final word is.
But really it's like they say about laws, you shouldn't write a law to let you do something, you should only have laws to get rid of the bad things and you're free to do the rest (which doesn't quite translate to an RPG, but you get the idea).
Actually I don't. What does that have to do with feats?
If there isn't anything particulary broken about eventually getting another at-will, then it would be nice to have.
And we're saying there is. Because there is, especially if it's any earlier than epic tier.
But what I'd really like to know is if any of the devs have tossed the idea around, and if so what their final word is.
Well, you're not going to hear anything from them here :P
In terms of it devaluing humans, I'm not really fully convinced on that front either. Given the number of "must have" type feats out there now I think burning a feat slot is a fairly significant cost. Given that there are plenty of other ways to acquire powers similar to an extra at-will already I just don't know that it really steps on humans that much.
I'll reserve judgment, but I'd be interested in some actual detailed discussion of what the mechanical issues would be. Really the main argument I can see against it now is stepping on Twofold Pact, but then again that does have other benefits.
1.) A feat that let's you pick an extra at-will from your class, but forces you to choose 1 at-will during every extended rest that you can't use until your next extended rest (most PCs would have 3 at-wills, but only be able to use 2 of the 3 at any given time).
2.) A multi-class feat that allows you to sub out one of your at-wills for an at-will in the other class when you choose the feat.
3.) A feat that allows you to pick an at-will from your class (or perhaps from any class using your power source?) that you can use if you spend an action point to get access to it for that battle.
4.) An item that grants acces to an at-will attack once per encounter, or until the end of the encounter if you expend a daily item power.
5.) A feat that allows you to choose an extra at-will (that requires a standard action normally) that you can use as a standard action, but only on your turn, only if you have not yet used a move or minor action during your turn, and if you use it you can't take a minor or move action on your turn.
6.) A feat that allows you to pick an at-will that you can use only when you're bloodied.
7.) A feat that allows you to pick an at-will that you can use only when you're not bloodied.
8.) A feat that allows a human to pick up an extra at-will from the human's class.
9.) A consumable item that allows a character to use a specific at-will once.
10.) A feat that allows a PC to trade 1 encounter power for an extra at-will.
And that feat still doesn't allow Eldritch Strike.
As written, the only way to get that ability is to be a human, because Eldritch Blast and your pact's at-will come from "class features", and thus cannot be retrained.
Yes, this is exceedingly frustrating.
And rather ironic considering the card that Eldritch Strike first appeared on was bundled with a tiefling warlock.
Except that non-human warlocks don't get choose their at-wills. Twofold pact finally lets them choose one.
If all wizards were forced to take magic missile and then orb wizards were locked into taking thunderwave, staff wizards locked into taking ray of frost and wand wizards locked into taking scorching burst THEN you could expect a similar wizard feat.
So not only does the Twofold Pact give you an extra at will, but you also get the pact boon as well.
That would be like a wizard getting both Thunderwave and the Orb ability, Ray of frost and the Staff ability and Scorching burst and the wand ability.
I think some people are vastly over-estimating the over powered ability of having an extra at-will.
So not only does the Twofold Pact give you an extra at will, but you also get the pact boon as well.
That would be like a wizard getting both Thunderwave and the Orb ability, Ray of frost and the Staff ability and Scorching burst and the wand ability.
I think some people are vastly over-estimating the over powered ability of having an extra at-will.
The power of two-fold pact is only evident when you really look at Warlock powers. It's not the same as it would be for any other class. Trust me.
The wizard argument isn't even a good one, because those abilities are useful much more often than a warlock's secondary at-will is useful.
The power of two-fold pact is only evident when you really look at Warlock powers. It's not the same as it would be for any other class. Trust me.
The wizard argument isn't even a good one, because those abilities are useful much more often than a warlock's secondary at-will is useful.
Thousands would trust you, but I don't. :P
Two-fold pact gives you an at will and a pact boon.
All I'm asking for is an extra at will. If it is so over powered, then why can I spend 680gp to get a Master's wand of "X" (where X = a Wizard at-will) that I can use once per encounter without counting against my daily magic item usage?
Thousands would trust you, but I don't. :P
Two-fold pact gives you an at will and a pact boon.
All I'm asking for is an extra at will. If it is so over powered, then why can I spend 680gp to get a Master's wand of "X" (where X = a Wizard at-will) that I can use once per encounter without counting against my daily magic item usage?
Because that's once per encounter. I could see a feat that does that. But not what you're describing, and certainly not before epic tier.
So not only does the Twofold Pact give you an extra at will, but you also get the pact boon as well.
That would be like a wizard getting both Thunderwave and the Orb ability, Ray of frost and the Staff ability and Scorching burst and the wand ability.
I think some people are vastly over-estimating the over powered ability of having an extra at-will.
Yes, they get the pact boon. But they have to choose which pact to receive when an enemy drops. Further, the pact boons in general are not as useful as the abilities conferred by the wizard implements.
So, in this increasingly useless analogy, wizards would get 1 of the implement abilities each encounter, not all of them.
How "overpowered" a third at-will is depends on your class. Controllers greatly benefit. Strikers could usually care less (rangers are the obvious example here). But every player has the option to build a character with a third at-will and a +2 in their primary stat. I'm not seeing the need for a new feat. If you want a third at-will, play a human.
Yes, they get the pact boon. But they have to choose which pact to receive when an enemy drops. Further, the pact boons in general are not as useful as the abilities conferred by the wizard implements.
So, in this increasingly useless analogy, wizards would get 1 of the implement abilities each encounter, not all of them.
How "overpowered" a third at-will is depends on your class. Controllers greatly benefit. Strikers could usually care less (rangers are the obvious example here). But every player has the option to build a character with a third at-will and a +2 in their primary stat. I'm not seeing the need for a new feat. If you want a third at-will, play a human.
Actually... this is a good point. Not for the argument for or against at-wills, but against playing most other races for any non-roleplay reason. A hell of a lot of racial can be emulated by powers or items etc. I chose to play an Eladrin Warlock because I like the idea of a crazy dark side of nature magic killing machine that teleports around. The racial background and Fey Step helped me chose Eladrin.
In the end however, it would have been a better choice to play a Human. I could have taken the stat bonus to what I needed instead of a blind bonus to Int and Dex, and Warlocks get a teleport at-will utility (since I'm stacking +teleport range items, Fey Step will get used much less), and still gotten an extra at-will! In the end my current racial will just be a few more square once a day, about as useful as Creeping Gatevine.
I think some people are vastly over-estimating the over powered ability of having an extra at-will.
I fully agree with this statement and have a question related to this. Playing D&D going from basic through 4th edition, I have historically played humans for the majority of my characters. I have played just about every race but 10 if not 20 to 1 I play humans. I have recently joined the 4th edition revolution and for the most part I like 4th it has been a lot of fun and seems balanced much better then 3rd ever was. That being said, Is it me or did Humans really get the screw in 4th? I have only played two toons (fighter and a wizzy) so far in 4th Each time I attempt to build my toons as a human first and find that I am very disappointed. The benefits that a human gets seems very weak compared to other races.
Human benefits: +1 NADs, +1 feat, +1 at-will from your class, +2 to one stat
The extra at will for the wizzy was ok but really I hardly ever used it. Between encounter, dailies and the standard 2 at-wills I didn’t find myself in a situation where I was saying, “Wow I wish I had that other at-will power” unless you are looking at paragon MC the extra at will just seems to suck.
The best benefit of a human is the extra feat, which I really like but it seems to be the only value over all.
+1 NADs is nice but nothing great compared to other races, most races have bonuses to one or more NADs.
+2 to one stat kinda sucks, why in the world they shorted humans here I do not understand. I believe humans are the ONLY race with one stat bonus.
I really like playing humans but I don’t like feeling like I am gimping my toons because of it. Is it just me or do Humans seem to really, really suck in 4th?
Guys, it's very simple. Which at-will powers you choose is part of what defines your character, just like which encounter, daily, and utility powers you choose is part of what defines your character. A single feat for another at-will would be a must-take for most characters, and would ultimately just make everyone's characters look that much more alike.
Except that they keep adding at-wills in the power books. In fact, of all the classes I've seen so far I think they all have at least 2 at-wills added in the power books. So, it's not like the options are getting any smaller. In fact, the only reason that I can see for a 2 at-will limit was when the game was first released because there were so few at-will options.
Not only that, but you're arguing that adding a feat decreases character variability when, by the very nature of adding another choice means that there is more potential for variation...especially when you consider that there are still more at-will choices than the feat would allow to be chosen.
While others may argue that "well then you should have a feat for shape shifting" or something inherent to a race that's a very different story. Those racial abilities are something that only that race can do. At-wills are something that anyone from that class can perform (and Half-elves not of that class with a bit more effort). They are the easiest maneuvers for that class, requiring so little effort that the class can perform it whenever they want, no rest required, repeatedly.
Learning another easy maneuver, effectively specializing your character for adaptability, is nowhere near akin to learning to shoot fire from your mouth or how to teleport.
+1 NADs is nice but nothing great compared to other races, most races have bonuses to one or more NADs.
+2 to one stat kinda sucks, why in the world they shorted humans here I do not understand. I believe humans are the ONLY race with one stat bonus.
I really like playing humans but I don’t like feeling like I am gimping my toons because of it. Is it just me or do Humans seem to really, really suck in 4th?
I tend to think that Humans got the screw a bit, and yet I still keep wanting to take them if only for that extra at-will. I've been trying to make a Warden for the past week, I really don't want to make another Human but I haven't been able to turn away completely because I want that third at-will.
I kind of wish they'd let an extra at-will cost a feat and give Humans the choice of +2 to 2 stats. Or maybe +2 to one stat of your choice and +1 or 2 to a fixed stat (I'd love to see the arguments over what that one would be).
Except that they keep adding at-wills in the power books. In fact, of all the classes I've seen so far I think they all have at least 2 at-wills added in the power books. So, it's not like the options are getting any smaller. In fact, the only reason that I can see for a 2 at-will limit was when the game was first released because there were so few at-will options.
So when there was such a small list to choose from and there weren't really 3 viable choices they had to limit it, but now that there are some actual hard choices to make they should remove the limit? The ever-increasing number of at-wills makes the 3rd at-will MORE valuable. It makes that limit mean something.
Learning another easy maneuver, effectively specializing your character for adaptability, is nowhere near akin to learning to shoot fire from your mouth or how to teleport.
"Of all the civilized races, humans are most adaptable and diverse." (PHB p.46)
Adaptability is what humans do. It is their racial power. If you want a teleporting character, make it eladrin. If you want a fire breathing character, make dragonborn. If you want an adaptable character, make it human.
What about a feat to give other races the human "ability" to get an extra feat! :P I might take that even as a human, maybe multiple times.
and if there are feats to give racial abilities, would that make them Multi-racial feats? Half-orcs and half-elves would need to get some extra bonus for taking them, I think.
More seriously, the extra at-will is most important, I think, at low levels when you have fewer options. As you go up in levels, I would think that you would be using and relying more on your many encounter powers (I honestly don't have a lot of experience with high level play). That being said, I kind of felt compelled to take human for a swordmage I made, specifically for the extra at-will. With the limited time I've played that character, I've been happy with that decision having used all 3 at-wills fairly evenly (lightning lure, booming blade, and sword burst for the record).
What about a feat to give other races the human "ability" to get an extra feat! :P I might take that even as a human, maybe multiple times.
I take the 'Extra Feat' feat!
Ok, what feat do you take with your new feat slot?
'Extra feat'!
OK, what feat do you take with your new feat slot?
...
You're basing your argument on Eldritch Strike??? First off, most people have house-ruled that warlocks can pick Eldritch Strike instead of Eldritch Blast at character creation. And even if your group hasn't done that, the warlock rules just say which at-wills you have to take at level 1; there's nothing anywhere telling you that you can't retrain them to something else the next time you gain a level.
Incorrect. They are class FEATURES, and thus cannot be retrained like other POWERS. This is why getting Eldritch Strike is so hard within RPGA limitations-- you're either human warlock, or a half-elf not-warlock. (But yes, houserulings mean you can do whatever the heck ya want!)
Several months ago, there was a thread similar to this, though the relevant question was "why only 2-at wills" and dealt with nothing about house-ruled suggestions to aquiring a third; I digress.
Anyway, the consensus was that while your at-wills defined your character through the first half of the heroic tier, higher level combat had so many more options between encounter powers, daily powers, and item powers that made the at-wills largely unused. And *because* more encounters and dailies were being used, combat went quicker, meaning that characters didn't even need to use their at-wills -- the enemies were dead and dying before they ran out of "juice".
This is why I disagree so vehemently with "3-at wills would be overpowered" and "maybe, but not until epic tier".
As characters grow in power, they rely *less* on their at-will abilities, not more.***
***Some crazy optimized characters not included, but frankly, if you or your PCs are playing overoptimized characters in the first place, a feat such as this is the least of your problems.
So when there was such a small list to choose from and there weren't really 3 viable choices they had to limit it, but now that there are some actual hard choices to make they should remove the limit? The ever-increasing number of at-wills makes the 3rd at-will MORE valuable. It makes that limit mean something.
The argument was that the limit forced differentiation, that was necessary when there were fewer powers to choose from. While you can claim that there were only 2 good powers out of all the original at-wills for every class that is not relevant to the discussion, that was a fault of the designers in making a lack of appealing choices.
The fact that there are suddenly more choices for at-wills means that the limit of 2 is not as necessary as it was for maintaining character differentiation. The limit certainly means more now, but I'm not sure if that meaning is a good one. It means that your characters are further restricted and, apparently, while being shining beacons of skill in their chosen field they are incapable of mastering more than 2 of these basic maneuvers, oh, except for humans, they're better at every class than any other race (I'll get back to this after the next point because I guarantee someone will take that to mean that I think humans are the best for every class from a character optimization perspective...and I don't).
"Of all the civilized races, humans are most adaptable and diverse." (PHB p.46)
Adaptability is what humans do. It is their racial power. If you want a teleporting character, make it eladrin. If you want a fire breathing character, make dragonborn. If you want an adaptable character, make it human.
Yes, they are the most adaptable, and they still would be, I mean, they would still get to choose their stat allotment and they would still get an extra feat and would still get another free at-will, oh, and all NADs and an extra skill. You did see the part where it said "most" adaptable and not "the only race capable of adapting at all", right?
At-wills, as I said earlier, are abilities that are so easy to perform for the character that they can do so without expending any extraordinary effort (or else it would take them a few minutes or a day to muster up and try it again). So, if for every class humans have exhibited such a mastery of technique that they can perform more of these abilities with no effort at all then it would indicate that they are the most skilled practitioners of their craft. That's right, for every class.
Take the extreme case and compare the lives of an Eladrin Wizard, steeped in the arcane arts from an early age, to a Human Wizard. No matter how long that Eladrin lives (considerably longer than the Human, no doubt), he will never be able to learn that extra bit of magic that that human was able to master by his first day of adventuring? I mean, sure he could learn it, but he'd have to suddenly forget something else.
And then the Eladrin looks to his right and sees a Half-Elf barbarian that thought "hell, yeah, i want to shoot magic out of my fingertips every once in a while."
At-wills are easy things to do for a character, it should not be out of the question that a character would sacrifice their development in one aspect of their training (a feat, for instance) in order to further it in another area. That is a legitimate character choice. If you think that 1 feat is too little to ask then I would suggest that with 1 feat you can take an extra at-will but only use it once per encounter and with a second feat you could turn it into an at-will. Is that a suitable cost for your taste?
I could see this perhaps if it counted as a multiclass feat. Sort of like extra training in your own class as opposed to training in a new one.
That seems like a viable option as well.
Humans get a NAD boost.
But they only get a native boost to one stat, which is what the NAD boost makes up for.
I really don't understand the "such a feat would devalue humans". Is the issue that all classes only have 2 or 3 really good at wills? And it can't devalue humans if they can also get the feat -- then they have four at-wills, and even more options than the other.
Of course it devalues humans. We have already explained why - it gives away what makes them unique. This is always always always bad.
Also, it is too strong for a feat anyway, just like dragonbreath or minor action second wind.
Humans having a feat which allows them a fourth at-will might actually be okay, because while the difference between 2 and 3 at-wills is fairly large (as it allows you to, among other things, cover all three NADs, get a ranged AoE, a close AoE, and a single target attack, or to pick up all three useful at-will attacks from many classes which really have only three for any given build) the difference between 3 and 4 is not, because chances are you already have all the best at-wills and the fourth one will be seldom used.
well... again you miss the point. Them getting it for free is their racial power.
No, you missed the point. Racial powers are stronger than feats.
Humans having a feat which allows them a fourth at-will might actually be okay, because while the difference between 2 and 3 at-wills is fairly large (as it allows you to, among other things, cover all three NADs, get a ranged AoE, a close AoE, and a single target attack, or to pick up all three useful at-will attacks from many classes which really have only three for any given build) the difference between 3 and 4 is not, because chances are you already have all the best at-wills and the fourth one will be seldom used.
It also enhances the human's racial advantage (more at wills) so it doesn't attack the uniqueness of the human. It would be like offering a feat to enhance fey step that could only be taken by Eladarin; this would be very different than offering fey step as a feat.
Such a feat already exists for half-elves. It's a paragon feat.
Getting an at-will from your own class is not incredibly powerful, but it is a strong racial trait, and they don't give away stuff like minor action second wind or dragon breath for a feat.
What's the harm? It devalues humans. "But they get it for free!" No, they don't. Note that lack of a racial power?
But there IS armor that is nearly identical to the dwarven minor second wind...and magic items that are nearly identical to the dragon breath...and a class that mimics Elven Accuracy (better, actually)...at least one class ability, and probably a magic item or two, that matches Eladrin teleportation...and an item or fifty that gives a skill bonus better than what you'd get from a +2 to an attribute...just doesn't work.
Wow, I really hope I'm an idiot and missed someone else pointing this out since we're already on page 3 here.
Such a feat already exists for half-elves. It's a paragon feat.
Its actually better than that. It is also broken. :\
But there IS armor that is nearly identical to the dwarven minor second wind...and magic items that are nearly identical to the dragon breath.
You mean Dwarven Armor and the dragonbreath elixir (or whatever it is called)? Both of which cost magic item dailies? Oh, and the latter is awful, costing a standard action to actually use?
no I realize this houserule is not for all tables, but it would not be overpowered for a more rp table (but then I would say making everyone "overpowered" would then mean no one is overpowered and the DM has to do is ramp up the difficulty to compensate, but I digress...)
-dgill
Wow, I really hope I'm an idiot and missed someone else pointing this out since we're already on page 3 here.
Such a feat already exists for half-elves. It's a paragon feat.
Except that's from a different class and restricted only to half-elves. It doesn't overshadow the half-elf; on the contrary, it deepens the race, providing more options and uniqueness not found anywhere else.
Giving every race and class the ability to completely duplicate the human racial power is NOT a good idea, and it's not at all like anything else that's already been done.
There are at-wills (like on Warlocks) that you can not ordinarily get out of the gate.
And that is a problem with the warlock class specifically, that is somewhat remedied by Two-fold pact. If any other class had that problem, I'd say go for it with the feat, but only for them.
No, you missed the point. Racial powers are stronger than feats.
^This^. This sums up all the problems with this idea.
But there IS armor that is nearly identical to the dwarven minor second wind...and magic items that are nearly identical to the dragon breath...and a class that mimics Elven Accuracy (better, actually)...at least one class ability, and probably a magic item or two, that matches Eladrin teleportation...and an item or fifty that gives a skill bonus better than what you'd get from a +2 to an attribute...just doesn't work.
Show me a single feat you can take that gives you another race's racial power (not counting feats for revenants; duplicating another race is their schtick).
Show me a single feat you can take that gives you another race's racial power (not counting feats for revenants; duplicating another race is their schtick).
Even then, they are restricted to a single race. They can't just take the racial abilities of every single race as they please.
Show me a single feat you can take that gives you another race's racial power (not counting feats for revenants; duplicating another race is their schtick).
Twofold Pact gives you the human racial power.
Twofold Pact gives you the human racial power.
Incorrect. Twofold pact gives you another pact, with the unfortunate side effect of granting another at-will. It does not allow you to select a free bonus at-will from any choice you desire in your class, and is exclusive to a single class. Moreover, it's broken.
Your only example is a more restrictive feat which people generally agree is still too powerful.
Gaining a class At-Will for a feat is balanced with humans if give humans a boost with the same feat. For instance:
Class Mastery
Gain a bonus level 1 At-Will power from your class. If you are human, you also deal +1 damage with all level 1 At-Will powers.
or
Class Mastery
Gain a bonus level 1 At-Will power from your class. If you are human, you instead gain two level 1 At-Will powers from your class.
The first example is more balanced. The second favors controllers and is useless to some classes until their power book comes out.
I didn't read through all the posts, so forgive me if someone has this idea already.
Gaining a class At-Will for a feat is balanced with humans if give humans a boost with the same feat. For instance:
Class Mastery
Gain a bonus level 1 At-Will power from your class. If you are human, you also deal +1 damage with all level 1 At-Will powers.
or
Class Mastery
Gain a bonus level 1 At-Will power from your class. If you are human, you instead gain two level 1 At-Will powers from your class.
I'm having trouble thinking of a single character I've made (of several dozen; I enjoy it) that wouldn't take that feat.
I didn't read through all the posts, so forgive me if someone has this idea already.
Gaining a class At-Will for a feat is balanced with humans if give humans a boost with the same feat. For instance:
Class Mastery
Gain a bonus level 1 At-Will power from your class. If you are human, you also deal +1 damage with all level 1 At-Will powers.
or
Class Mastery
Gain a bonus level 1 At-Will power from your class. If you are human, you instead gain two level 1 At-Will powers from your class.
The first example is more balanced. The second isn't useful for most classes.
This I might be able to get behind, so long as it doesn't grant its human bonus to half-humans (they get racial benefits and racial powers already as well). A better way to word it might be:
"Gain a bonus level 1 at-will power for your class. If you already get a bonus level 1 at-will power for your class as a racial feature, you instead gain two level 1 at-will powers for your class."
Maybe in epic tier it would be allowable, but then again, epic tier is weird.
I'm having trouble thinking of a single character I've made (of several dozen; I enjoy it) that wouldn't take that feat.
Hmmm...maybe should be paragon. By paragon you're using your at-wills less and +1 damage doesn't mean as much, so it should be more balanced all around.
...You either start out with 2-3 bonus NACDs, a bonus feat, and a bonus at-will, or you start out with 2-3 bonus NACDs and 2 bonus feats.
Umm... what?
Incorrect. Twofold pact gives you another pact, with the unfortunate side effect of granting another at-will. It does not allow you to select a free bonus at-will from any choice you desire in your class, and is exclusive to a single class. Moreover, it's broken.
Your only example is a more restrictive feat which people generally agree is still too powerful.
You are correct that Two fold pact is better then the extra human at-will racial power.
Please explain how it does not allow you to select a free at will from any choice you desire in your class?
I completely disagree that it impacts human uniqueness. A human could use this feat to be still more versatile. It's nothing like granting dragonbreath, because a dragonborn taking a feat that granted dragonbreath wouldn't gain anything significant (one more use per encounter, I guess). Same with an eladrin taking a feat that granted fey step, or a changeling taking a feat that granted shapeshifting. A human taking yet another at-will would benefit. Now that nearly all the core classes have either a power book or have four appealing at-wills already, having all four is a very tasty option. It's far more analogous to an elf becoming an Avenger: the racial power works better in concert with the feat or class feature as the case may be.
You are correct that Two fold pact is better then the extra human at-will racial power.
Please explain how it does not allow you to select a free at will from any choice you desire in your class?
Eldritch Strike and the fact that it is warlock only... that's pretty much it
You are correct that Two fold pact is better then the extra human at-will racial power.
Please explain how it does not allow you to select a free at will from any choice you desire in your class?
Well, as a Constitution-based Starlock, I might like the Eyes of the Vestige power better than Hellish Rebuke, but really like the Infernal Pact Boon/other abilities. Or maybe I love the pact boon of Fey Pact, but it uses Charisma so the at-will is essentially useless.
My point is: The choice is not influenced only by what at-will you want; in reality, it amounts to so much more than that.
And it's not ovepowered. It's compensation for the fact that warlock abilities are ridiculously limited by pact, and that the at-will a warlock uses 75-90% of the time is Eldritch Blast, which is ridiculously boring. Getting a second super-rare at-will isn't as wonderful-tastic for a warlock as it is for a wizard, invoker, psion, or druid, or most any other class.
Huh. My first inclination was one brought up just a few posts above. Count it as a multiclass feat, but instead one that focuses on your own class. It rewards characters for focusing, and gaining an at-will is in line with the power of other multiclass feats. Since almost all characters in my games seem to at least flirt with the idea of taking multiclass feats because of how good they are, that sounds fair to me.
I completely disagree that it impacts human uniqueness. A human could use this feat to be still more versatile. It's nothing like granting dragonbreath, because a dragonborn taking a feat that granted dragonbreath wouldn't gain anything significant (one more use per encounter, I guess). Same with an eladrin taking a feat that granted fey step, or a changeling taking a feat that granted shapeshifting. A human taking yet another at-will would benefit. Now that nearly all the core classes have either a power book or have four appealing at-wills already, having all four is a very tasty option. It's far more analogous to an elf becoming an Avenger: the racial power works better in concert with the feat or class feature as the case may be.
The issue for me is less that it impacts Human uniqueness, but more that racial powers are too strong for feats before epic tier (and even then, they'd be pretty damn good).
As Titanium Dragon said:
No you missed the point. Racial Powers are stronger than feats.
The issue for me is less that it impacts Human uniqueness, but more that racial powers are too strong for feats before epic tier (and even then, they'd be pretty damn good).
As Titanium Dragon said:
Some are, some aren't. Druid multiclassing isn't so much different than a changeling's shapeshift, except for the somewhat ill-defined 'wild' part. Avenger multiclassing is arguably as good as elven accuracy (scratch that: divine power offers an avenger multiclass that is flat out better). Heck, sorceror multiclass doesn't compare that disfavourably to the half-orc damage bonus. Skill training is flat-out better than a racial +2, for obvious reasons, yet those +2s are also racial powers. I don't disagree that getting Fey Step as a feat would be out of line, but given that all an at-will can conceivably add is a balanced-by-action-economy option to make a character a little more interesting, I don't think it's anywhere near as strong as most other racials. In fact, that's the main critique humans have faced since 4e came out.
As a flat feat I think this would be too good. As a multiclass feat I kinda think it's in line.
I'm on the side that says this is one of the few things that allows a human to be worthy of consideration when building them. You can't just give it away as a feat, otherwise, humans are pretty worthless and would almost never be chosen (unless someone really had an RP reason to do so.)
Personally, I've always despised demihumans because back in the BECMI books, we were told that that they got nice features early on, but suffered later when they stopped gaining levels, while humans continued on. Except then they started gaining "attack levels" which threw that out the window.
So when it came time to choose a race for my wizard character in 4e, naturally I chose...eladrin. Why? Because I don't need an extra feat, an extra NAD point to each, an additional at-will, an extra skill, and +2 to a single score when I can have Fey Step, boosted will (especially vs. charm,) longsword proficiency (and in turn allows sword wizardry,) arcana and history +2, an additional trained skill, 4 hour trance over sleep, low-light vision, and +2 to my two most important stats.
The problem isn't that the extra at-will would be overpowered. The problem is that humans kind of bite. Take any of their racial features away and they're not at all worth playing over races built to utilize specific classes.
That reminds me of an edition of Confessions of a Part Time Sorceress a few months ago. I don't recall it perfectly, but the jist of it was that Shelly wanted to play a race and the stats didn't line up for the class she wanted to play, so a dev told her "Well, just play xyz and you'll get the stats."
To me, it's a negative in 4e that you need to play specific races to get the "best" mix for your chosen class. Most class/race combos I don't care about, but humans bother me in their lack of "nice" features. Sure, I can choose what I want to apply my ability score boost to, I can get an extra feat, and I can get an extra at-will, but I can choose to get so much more elsewhere.
I'd rather the extra at-will was a feat, but that the class feature for humans was replaced with something else. Honestly, I'd like it to be replaced with an ability score bonus to a second stat (though I might demand that it were +1 instead of +2.)
You are correct that Two fold pact is better then the extra human at-will racial power.
Please explain how it does not allow you to select a free at will from any choice you desire in your class?
It doesn't allow selection of Eldritch Strike or any power not associated with a pact.
Some are, some aren't. Druid multiclassing isn't so much different than a changeling's shapeshift, except for the somewhat ill-defined 'wild' part.
Except that the primary function of the changeling's shapeshift is to fool people into thinking you're someone else. I'm not going to believe you're Bob the farmer because Bob the farmer doesn't have fur and claws!
So No.
Skill training is flat-out better than a racial +2, for obvious reasons, yet those +2s are also racial powers.
No, a racial power is a power granted by your race. You're talking about a racial feature, which is entirely different.
So No.
I don't disagree that getting Fey Step as a feat would be out of line, but given that all an at-will can conceivably add is a balanced-by-action-economy option to make a character a little more interesting, I don't think it's anywhere near as strong as most other racials. In fact, that's the main critique humans have faced since 4e came out.
But the Human's is at-will. You trade that action economy thing for versatility. Just because it's powerful in a different way than other Racial Powers does not mean it's any less powerful, or any more worthy of also becoming a feat.
So, again, No.
Eldritch Strike and the fact that it is warlock only... that's pretty much it
Right, you mean the one power that all warlocks know as an at-will power?
The original question was:
Show me a single feat you can take that gives you another race's racial power (not counting feats for revenants; duplicating another race is their schtick).
If I play a Warlock, exactly how is Twofold Pact (which gives me an extra at-will power and pact benefit) not the same (or actually more powerful) then the human extra at-will racial power (which gives an extra at-will power)?
I was answering the question about a single feat that would give an equivalent racial power.
Umm... what?
A human is either going to be two feat slots ahead of any other race or a feat slot and an at-will ahead of any other race (assuming that an extra at-will feat were to exist). Either the other race takes the feat to gain an extra at-will, thereby using up a feat slot the human didn't have to, or they don't, in which case the current state of affairs remains.
Huh. My first inclination was one brought up just a few posts above. Count it as a multiclass feat, but instead one that focuses on your own class. It rewards characters for focusing, and gaining an at-will is in line with the power of other multiclass feats. Since almost all characters in my games seem to at least flirt with the idea of taking multiclass feats because of how good they are, that sounds fair to me.
I completely disagree that it impacts human uniqueness. A human could use this feat to be still more versatile. It's nothing like granting dragonbreath, because a dragonborn taking a feat that granted dragonbreath wouldn't gain anything significant (one more use per encounter, I guess). Same with an eladrin taking a feat that granted fey step, or a changeling taking a feat that granted shapeshifting. A human taking yet another at-will would benefit. Now that nearly all the core classes have either a power book or have four appealing at-wills already, having all four is a very tasty option. It's far more analogous to an elf becoming an Avenger: the racial power works better in concert with the feat or class feature as the case may be.
Still, you have to look at it in context of humans alongside other races.
Would eladrin be as unique if everyone could teleport with one feat?
Would dragonborn be as unique if everyone could have dragonbreath with one feat?
Why is it justifiable that humans are fine if everyone else could get the third at-will?
Right, you mean the one power that all warlocks know as an at-will power?
No, that's Eldritch Blast. Eldritch Strike is an odd little at-will usable only by humans.
The original question was:
If I play a Warlock, exactly how is Twofold Pact (which gives me an extra at-will power and pact benefit) not the same (or actually more powerful) then the human extra at-will racial power (which gives an extra at-will power)?
I was answering the question about a single feat that would give an equivalent racial power.
Well, as a Constitution-based Starlock, I might like the Eyes of the Vestige power better than Hellish Rebuke, but really like the Infernal Pact Boon/other abilities. Or maybe I love the pact boon of Fey Pact, but it uses Charisma so the at-will is essentially useless.
My point is: The choice is not influenced only by what at-will you want; in reality, it amounts to so much more than that.
And it's not ovepowered. It's compensation for the fact that warlock abilities are ridiculously limited by pact, and that the at-will a warlock uses 75-90% of the time is Eldritch Blast, which is ridiculously boring. Getting a second super-rare at-will isn't as wonderful-tastic for a warlock as it is for a wizard, invoker, psion, or druid, or most any other class.
So it's similar. But it's not at all the same.
Right, you mean the one power that all warlocks know as an at-will power?
Show me where it says that all warlocks automatically get Eldritch Strike alongside Eldritch Blast and their pact at-will. Show me... I dare you.
If I play a Warlock, exactly how is Twofold Pact (which gives me an extra at-will power and pact benefit) not the same (or actually more powerful) then the human extra at-will racial power (which gives an extra at-will power)?
I was answering the question about a single feat that would give an equivalent racial power.
Because it still only gives you an at-will tied specifically to a pact you have. Humans may choose any third power, which as of right now opens up Eldritch Strike to them. That said, find me a single person that doesn't think that twofold pact isn't broken as-is. It unlocks an entire subset of class function as well as granting an at-will.
All you've proven is that the closest thing to the human bonus power is a broken feat.
Except that the primary function of the changeling's shapeshift is to fool people into thinking you're someone else. I'm not going to believe you're Bob the farmer because Bob the farmer doesn't have fur and claws!
So No.
No, a racial power is a power granted by your race. You're talking about a racial feature, which is entirely different.
So No.
But the Human's is at-will. You trade that action economy thing for versatility. Just because it's powerful in a different way than other Racial Powers does not mean it's any less powerful, or any more worthy of also becoming a feat.
So, again, No.
I went back and edited, but I don't think you saw the changes.
* Hero of the faith (avenger m/c from divine power) is flat-out better than elven accuracy. Not only does it grant a more-than-once-per-encounter reroll, it also grants skill training.
* Warrior of the Wild is only lesser than the half-orc's damage booster ability by a die step and a minor action. In addition, it grants skill training.
* Any multiclass feat granting an at-will as an encounter ability is doing what the half-elf's dilettante does. Again, you get skill training as well.
Do you see where I'm going?
Still, you have to look at it in context of humans alongside other races.
Would eladrin be as unique if everyone could teleport with one feat?
Would dragonborn be as unique if everyone could have dragonbreath with one feat?
Why is it justifiable that humans are fine if everyone else could get the third at-will?
Because humans are still the only race that can get a fourth. A fifth, if the human is a warlock or druid.
Because humans have more feats than everyone else, and some of the nicer choices (getting stomped on slowly by the racial feats in newer books IMO though. Is it just me or do the newer human feats tend to suck?)
Because eladrin teleportation is not unique. Plenty of other classes teleport. Elves rolling two attack rolls are not unique. Avengers and anyone m/ced that way can do it. Half-orcs adding 1d8 to damage are not unique. Most strikers can do it. And on down the line. Races have particular areas they shine, and humans shine in the 'having lots of options' direction. Allowing everyone (including humans) to expand their options would not make them shine any less in that direction, any more than making a half-orc ranger suddenly makes that half-orc 1d8 bonus damage seem less appealing.
For a regular heroic tier feat the idea is way out of line. As an option-limiting feat though, it could be made to work pretty easily.
I went back and edited, but I don't think you saw the changes.
* Hero of the faith (avenger m/c from divine power) is flat-out better than elven accuracy. Not only does it grant a more-than-once-per-encounter reroll, it also grants skill training.
* Warrior of the Wild is only lesser than the half-orc's damage booster ability by a die step and a minor action. In addition, it grants skill training.
* Any multiclass feat granting an at-will as an encounter ability is doing what the half-elf's dilettante does. Again, you get skill training as well.
Do you see where I'm going?
1) - No, it's not at all. The standard limits to Oath of Enmity apply (No other enemies adjacent), and it can't be used reactively. I have yet to see anyone waste an Elven Accuracy (missing again is not wasting it, wasting it is using it on a hit). It's a similar power, but it's not the same. You can't compare them.
2) - Again, the Half-Orcs power is never wasted because it's activated on the hit. It's easy to waste that turn of Hunter's Quarry by missing.
3) - I might agree with you if it weren't for the ridiculously great Half-Elf Paragon feat that makes that encounter power an at-will. It's almost treated as part of the race now. In addition, the at-will has to be from a class you're multiclassing in, not just from any friggin' class. I might want to multiclass into something else, but like that at-will from that particular class. It's very limiting when compared to the Half-Elfs.
A feat granting a similar, often weaker or more limited version of a racial power is not the same thing as granting that racial power. A second at-will feat would be EXACTLY the same thing as the Human racial power.
And multiclassing cannot be compared to the suggested feat in this thread because, similar to the reasoning for two-fold pact, it limits you to only multiclassing in that class. Some characters want to multiclass in other classes for reasons other than that first feat (It's fairly common).
Because humans are still the only race that can get a fourth. A fifth, if the human is a warlock or druid.
Because humans have more feats than everyone else, and some of the nicer choices (getting stomped on slowly by the racial feats in newer books IMO though. Is it just me or do the newer human feats tend to suck?)
Because eladrin teleportation is not unique. Plenty of other classes teleport. Elves rolling two attack rolls are not unique. Avengers and anyone m/ced that way can do it. Half-orcs adding 1d8 to damage are not unique. Most strikers can do it. And on down the line. Races have particular areas they shine, and humans shine in the 'having lots of options' direction. Allowing everyone (including humans) to expand their options would not make them shine any less in that direction, any more than making a half-orc ranger suddenly makes that half-orc 1d8 bonus damage seem less appealing.
For a regular heroic tier feat the idea is way out of line. As an option-limiting feat though, it could be made to work pretty easily.
Not a single example you have given is on the same power level as a mere feat. You've talked about class features, paragon path features, and other such functions that are, unlike feats, very restrictive. This still doesn't give validity to the idea that the bonus at-will is the equivalent of a feat. If anything, you've proven that it's the equivalent of a class feature (to which the druids basically have just that) or a paragon path feature... but definitely not a feat.
As another example, which of these two is more balanced: A feat that allows you to choose two feats (effectively a free feat for the cost of a feat), or a paragon path that grants a feat (which already exists in some cases)?
I went back and edited, but I don't think you saw the changes.
* Hero of the faith (avenger m/c from divine power) is flat-out better than elven accuracy. Not only does it grant a more-than-once-per-encounter reroll, it also grants skill training.
* Warrior of the Wild is only lesser than the half-orc's damage booster ability by a die step and a minor action. In addition, it grants skill training.
* Any multiclass feat granting an at-will as an encounter ability is doing what the half-elf's dilettante does. Again, you get skill training as well.
Do you see where I'm going?
Basically a QED as far as showing how a feat adding another at-will isn't stomping on alleged human "uniqueness" in a way that isn't done repeatedly elsewhere?
Unfortunately, you'll never get that sort of admission, some folks would blow their brains out before admitting they were wrong.
That said, this feat WOULD be more powerful than other feats, at least at heroic tier, where there few feats that grant outright new abilities. It's not exactly broken, after all (we're looking at the 3rd best at-will you can find, which is likely situational). I'm no expert, though, as I'm seeing the same handful of feats over and over and over again in my campaigns.
Show me where it says that all warlocks automatically get Eldritch Strike alongside Eldritch Blast and their pact at-will. Show me... I dare you.
Yeah, you're right there, my bad. :embarrass
Because it still only gives you an at-will tied specifically to a pact you have. Humans may choose any third power, which as of right now opens up Eldritch Strike to them. That said, find me a single person that doesn't think that twofold pact isn't broken as-is. It unlocks an entire subset of class function as well as granting an at-will.
The question was not to find a feat that isn't broken. The question was to find a feat.
All you've proven is that the closest thing to the human bonus power is a broken feat.
Thank you. I rest my case.
I went back and edited, but I don't think you saw the changes.
* Hero of the faith (avenger m/c from divine power) is flat-out better than elven accuracy. Not only does it grant a more-than-once-per-encounter reroll, it also grants skill training.
* Warrior of the Wild is only lesser than the half-orc's damage booster ability by a die step and a minor action. In addition, it grants skill training.
* Any multiclass feat granting an at-will as an encounter ability is doing what the half-elf's dilettante does. Again, you get skill training as well.
Do you see where I'm going?
Hero of Faith is horrendously broken, it invalidates the existance of Avengers, and will surely be errataed once it reaches the level of abuse of battlerager, Righteous Rage of Tempus, and the like in RPGA.
Warrior of the Wild costs an action to use, and the Half Orcs racial power is too weak to be a racial power.
Diletante is not bound to multiclassing, has no stat requirements, and some would argue is too weak without the VM feat.
Show me where it says that all warlocks automatically get Eldritch Strike alongside Eldritch Blast and their pact at-will. Show me... I dare you.
Dude. Antagonize much.. I have been watching this thread since it began. I have not piped in because I do not see the issue with allowing a feat to give an extra @will (@ paragon at the very least) but do not see a real need for it also. But your post was the mot aggressive one I have really seen in here. It was taunting, virtually baiting.
Relax my friend. Relax.
As Burning Rose pointed out, the person you are replying to most likely made a mistake in thinking which power he was talking about.
Dude. Antagonize much.. I have been watching this thread since it began. I have not piped in because I do not see the issue with allowing a feat to give an extra @will (@ paragon at the very least) but do not see a real need for it also. But your post was the mot aggressive one I have really seen in here. It was taunting, virtually baiting.
Relax my friend. Relax.
As Burning Rose pointed out, the person you are replying to most likely made a mistake in thinking which power he was talking about.
Which is why I didn't continue with a response beyond that. I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, but misinformation (intentional or accidental) is a problem that needs to be cut off at the head.
Which is why I didn't continue with a response beyond that. I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, but misinformation (intentional or accidental) is a problem that needs to be cut off at the head.
Exactly which is why when people want to know what feat to take to simulate the extra human at-will racial power, they need to know about Twofold Pact.
Exactly which is why when people want to know what feat to take to simulate the extra human at-will racial power, they need to know about Twofold Pact.
It doesn't, though. It does something only vaguely related based around features specific to one class. The human power is, "No matter what class you are, you get one more at-will power."
Twofold pact gives you another at-will power. Period. That doesn't mean it's a bad choice for humans. They get their new power despite it being their fourth (or fifth! or sixth!) at-will.
Three at-wills on a single character are not overpowered. (See humans, druids)
So what exactly is "overpowered" about a non-human also having three at-wills? All it does is add versatility and tactical options.
I suppose the question then becomes: why is a specific race the only acceptable tradeoff (in many people's views) to achieve that versatility?
Three at-wills on a single character are not overpowered. (See humans, druids)
So what exactly is "overpowered" about a non-human also having three at-wills? All it does is add versatility and tactical options.
Humans make some pretty big sacrifices for that extra at-will, and druids require spending a minor action in order to get access to their third at-will.
Still, it is not so much that an extra at-will is supremely overpowered over other races, so much as it is very overpowered for a feat. Can you imagine not taking this feat? It drastically increases your options at very little cost.
I suppose the question then becomes: why is a specific race the only acceptable tradeoff (in many people's views) to achieve that versatility?
Well, it's the tradeoff that has been established as appropriate, for now. +2 to a stat and one encounter power = 1 feat and 1 at-will. Either that, or the cost of an extra action, as in the case of the druid, in order to use your 3rd at-will.
Personally, I would be most interested in a cost-appropriate method for replacing my at-wills with those of another class. I would like to make, for example, an arcane archer whose at-wills are ranger powers but encounter and dailies are all spells. That kind of thing.
Your argument for druid falls apart when the campaign reaches paragon. Nimble Shifting (quick shifting? Some druid specific feat) means they can shift as a free action.
I also find your suggestion that "+2 to a stat and one encounter power = 1 feat and 1 at-will." lacking. The thing is, humans getting only one bonus to ability scores is offset by the fact that they can pick ANY ability score, rather than forced into a specific set, like the other races. Humans get a NAD bonus too -- other races, such as Genasi, only have a single nad boosted. Dwarves, like humans, don't have a racial encounter power.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that one can't break apart the individual bits of each race for use in comparison. It's the *whole* package that is balanced, not individual elements. (
Your argument for druid falls apart when the campaign reaches paragon. Nimble Shifting (quick shifting? Some druid specific feat) means they can shift as a free action.
True, although since they can only use wild shape once per turn they are still prevented from using at least one at-will until their next turn. (Admittedly an extremely minor disadvantage, generally.)
I also find your suggestion that "+2 to a stat and one encounter power = 1 feat and 1 at-will." lacking. The thing is, humans getting only one bonus to ability scores is offset by the fact that they can pick ANY ability score, rather than forced into a specific set, like the other races.
This is not something that affects balance. If humans could change their ability score bonus partway through the game, that would be an advantage. But a human with +2 STR is at a disadvantage (discounting their other bonuses) against longtooth shifters, dragonborn, goliaths, warforged, etc.
Humans get a NAD bonus too -- other races, such as Genasi, only have a single nad boosted. Dwarves, like humans, don't have a racial encounter power.
Dwarves receive a bonus to a common encounter power instead of a unique encounter power.
Genasi, and all other races, get a NAD bonus to reflex and fortitude, in the form of +2 INT and +2 STR.
However, it's true that humans end up with +1 NAD over other races. So I amend the equation to +1 NAD + 1 at-will + 1 feat = 1 encounter power + +2 to a stat + +2 to 2 skills.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that one can't break apart the individual bits of each race for use in comparison. It's the *whole* package that is balanced, not individual elements. (
Absolutely. And most races consist of +2 to two stats, one encounter power, +2 to two skills, and +1 to a NAD if their +2 stats both contribute to the same defense.
Genasi, and all other races, get a NAD bonus to reflex and fortitude, in the form of +2 INT and +2 STR.
Just in case I'm misunderstanding you, I'm going to clarify that Githyanki, Warforged, Wilden, Goblins, Shadar-Kai, Eladring, Changelings/Doppelgaenger, Goliath and Genasi (Storm, Earth, and Fire) have a NAD bonus in *addition* to whatever bonus their attribute bonuses dole out.
Genasi, and all other races, get a NAD bonus to reflex and fortitude, in the form of +2 INT and +2 STR.
Just in case I'm misunderstanding you, I'm going to clarify that Githyanki, Warforged, Wilden, Goblins, Shadar-Kai, Eladring, Changelings/Doppelgaenger, Goliath and Genasi (Storm, Earth, and Fire) have a NAD bonus in *addition* to whatever bonus their attribute bonuses dole out.
And I'm going to just repeat myself by explaining that in many of those cases, that is because their +2 ability scores are to the same defense.
Eladrin, Shadar-Kai, Goliaths, warforged only receive +1 to 1 NAD from their ability bumps. That's why they have the additional +1.
The others are harder to justify. I'm not sure what the extra +1 is meant to balance. In some of those cases, such as the changelings, I think it is because of the very limited value of their racial encounter powers. If you want the changeling power to be of any use, you still have to hit the enemy on the next round, which means you need to beat two d20 rolls to get any value out of it compared to most racial powers which can be used without any roll whatsoever. Others clearly give up another passive bonus compared to other races in order to get their +1, such as Githyanki who receive +2 to only one skill instead of 2.
Like you say, you need to look at the whole package. You can't just say, "Eladrin get +1 to a NAD, so it must be perfectly balanced to give every race +1 to a NAD." Obviously WotC thinks that Eladrin getting +1 to a NAD is balanced compared to a human getting +1 to every NAD because of the various other abilities of each race. Likewise, you can't say, "Humans get an extra at-will, so every race should be able to."
You seem to be objecting primarily to the fact that when I wrote out the equation, I neglected a few other bonuses from race, but not to the sentiment in general. If that's the case, feel free to write the equation however you feel like. The point is that there are significant differences between humans and other races that are intended to balance out their lack of an encounter power and their -2 to ability scores, and one of those features is an additional at-will.
One feat is far less valuable than an additional at-will. Therefore, gaining an extra at-will in exchange for a single feat is unbalanced.
Edit: I think I am at least partially correct that races with racial powers that require a d20 roll receive another benefit to compensate. This is most evident if you look at the genasi forms.
One feat is far less valuable than an additional at-will from your class. Therefore, gaining an extra at-will in exchange for a single feat is unbalanced.
Bold added by me. And that is the singular issue with which I take contention. I do not see anyone's reasoning on why this is so.
One feat is far less valuable than an additional at-will from your class. Therefore, gaining an extra at-will in exchange for a single feat is unbalanced.
Bold added by me. And that is the singular issue with which I take contention. I do not see anyone's reasoning on why this is so.
Let me put it this way: instead of an extra at-will, humans instead get two bonus feats at level 1.
Are they still just as good?
Instead of 2 at-wills, you can opt to take and additional feat at level 1. Would you ever avail yourself of this option?
Feats generally provide a small bonus to one of your stats, or a larger bonus in a highly specific situation (usually outside of your control, such as a on a crit or opportunity attack). An extra at-will vastly increases your flexibility, decreases the need for meticulous tactics, and may allow you to impose status effects or attack multiple enemies when you otherwise wouldn't.
They are nowhere near comparable in power or usefulness.
I have moved this thread based on a VCL request. 
I don't know. I don't really think At-Wills are as dramatically powerful as everyone thinks they are. As one poster commented before, an Eldritch blast is just a long bow, and when you look at 'em, a lot of the at wills do little more than impose a status effect, maybe hit an additional target or two, or give another tactical/statistical benefit. They seem like slightly different flavored weapons to me. Whatever. They're definitely more prominent than feats in terms of their mathematical impact, but start to give characters more at-wills, and the power curve slows down after a while.
Lofgren, if I'm reading you right, your point is feat ≠ at-will power, therefore the exchange is unbalanced. I don't think this logic necessarily applies. I agree that at-wills are more powerful, but that doesn't in anyway diminish the value of a feat. A feat is a slot that you have to do with what you will. It's your choice for how you use it. A feat spent taking an at-will is a feat not spent taking a feat, which has a different kind of utility that often comes in the form of a static conditional effect. I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that everyone would just automatically take the at-will feat just because at-wills are somehow "better". It depends on the motivations of the character and what kind of ability sets they're going for.
Our group plays with a pretty heavily home-brewed ruleset where every character class gets a scrolling list of at-will abilities from the very start that require a roll of some kind to pull off. The higher you roll, the stronger the effect becomes. For example, the Rogue gets Strikes (aim, disarm, double shot, feint, trip, wound) and Foils (Dodge, Tumble, Parry, Reposition). These are the basics of being a Rogue. As our logic follows, there is a certain ability set that defines what a Rogue does, therefore you should be able to do all of those things from the start. For us, being Level 1 doesn't mean that your ability set is that much more limited, you just suck at everything, and gradually become better in certain areas as you specialize over the course of your character's career. So far, nothing is overpowered about it at all (and that's something like 10 at-wills?). Admittedly, a lot of these are non-damaging, like Disarm, Trip, and all the foils.
But I digress. Here's an experiment. Make a party. Give your characters all the at-will powers available to their classes. See if that "breaks" the game. I still maintain that the DM controls reality, and there's nothing more broken than that. I think what you'll end up finding is that your characters will be no stronger than before, they'll just have a few more options.