Garrote and Combat Nets - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Garrote and Combat Nets

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lobotaru
Jan 14, 2009 9:09:10 Since both of these were missing from the PHB and they are relatively easy for players to construct with hemp rope, I thought it would be necessary to mention them to some degree. Here is what I've come up with for rules regarding Garrotes and combat nets.

1) Garrote: A garrote is a length of cord, rope, or durable threads attached to a single handle or two handles, and is designed to choke an unsuspecting target.

Making an attack with a garrote:
An attacker can only make a garrote attempt against a target not engaged in combat, and the attacker must have combat advantage against the target. The initial attack with the garrote is strength vs. reflex or dexterity vs. reflex, whichever is better for the attacker. If the attack succeeds, the target is grabbed, is effectively mute (his airway is cut off, thus preventing him from calling out for help or otherwise using his voice), and takes 1d10 + strength modifier damage.

Maintaining the garrote:
In all respects, maintaining a garrote attack follows all the same rules for maintaining a grab. However, the target suffers a -2 penalty on checks to escape the grab due to the advantageous position of the attacker, cannot speak or call out for help while the grab is maintained, and every round the target fails to escape the grab the attacker deals another 1d10 + strength modifier damage as it chokes to death and the garrote squeezes the target's neck.

Special:
Bonus damage from class features do not apply to the damage dealt by a garrote attack. Also, an attacker can only garrote a target one size category smaller or larger than himself. Targets that are too small make it too difficult to precisely apply the garrote and targets that are too large are impossible to garrote because the character can't reach all the way around the target's neck to garrote them.

2) Combat Nets: These specially prepared nets are attached to a length of rope and are designed for throwing at a target. The inside of the net has small hooks to catch the skin and clothes of the target, making these nets very tedious to escape from, and the length of rope allows the attacker to control the movement of his quarry.

Attacking with a combat net:
A combat net has a maximum range of 5 squares, and counts as a heavy thrown weapon (uses the attacker's strength modifier instead of dexterity modifier for the attack roll). The attacker makes a strength vs. reflex roll to hit the target. If the target is hit, it takes no damage, but becomes caught in the net. While caught in the net, the target is considered slowed, grants combat advantage to attackers, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls.
An attacker can make a strength check to force the netted target to move in the same manner as a grab.

Escaping from a combat net:
Due to the construction of these nets, getting out of them is extremely tedious. The target must make an escape attempt against DC 14 to get out of the net.

Special:
A combat net can only be used once per encounter. If the net attack misses, it is wasted for the encounter. This is due to the fact that a net must be packed properly to throw it, so once it is released it must be carefully refolded. This can be done during a short rest.

What do you guys think of these?
#2
vebrandsson
Jan 14, 2009 9:14:01 Well I'm not going to touch on the Garrote other than I personally think its a bad idea, but the Net appeared in Dragon #368 and is simular in some minor ways to what you discribe.
#3
lobotaru
Jan 14, 2009 12:14:35
Well I'm not going to touch on the Garrote other than I personally think its a bad idea, but the Net appeared in Dragon #368 and is simular in some minor ways to what you discribe.

Could you please elaborate on why you think its a bad idea? Is it the damage, the silencing effect of it, or something else?
#4
vebrandsson
Jan 14, 2009 13:31:30 Well the way you have the Garrote written makes it look more like a power that requires a specific weapon than like a weapon itself. The fact that it can only be used out of combat makes it near useless outside of a tool for cold blooded assassination, which is something only evil characters would use. My last issues is should an NPC catch your wizard or warlock, or any other character without training in acrobatics or athletics that character basically has next to no chance to escape and the player gets to sit there and do very little while his character slowly dies as he can't call for help or other wise manage to save himself.
#5
celloshane
Jan 14, 2009 13:52:34
the player gets to sit there and do very little while his character slowly dies as he can't call for help or other wise manage to save himself.

How so? The character can attempt any actions he can normally attempt while grabbed except speaking. The garrotte doesn't seem overpowered to me. Are you presuming that Wizards and Warlocks can't use powers when silenced? If so, that's a mixup with the 3.5 rules; 4e powers don't contain any verbal components. I have trouble keeping things like that straight myself.
#6
xxphilosopherxx
Jan 14, 2009 14:04:21 I don't have my materials with me, but i believe there is a Bugbear Strangler (or somesuch) that uses a garrote in combat. That would probably be worth referencing for ideas.

Since the combat net has a flat-rate escape DC, it will only be truly useful for lower levels. I don't know if you intended that, but it might be something to consider.
#7
vebrandsson
Jan 14, 2009 14:05:36
How so? The character can attempt any actions he can normally attempt while grabbed except speaking. The garrotte doesn't seem overpowered to me. Are you presuming that Wizards and Warlocks can't use powers when silenced? If so, that's a mixup with the 3.5 rules; 4e powers don't contain any verbal components. I have trouble keeping things like that straight myself.

I realize 4e has no spell components for spells, which I dislike, a tied up gaged wizard has all his powers but a tied up ranger can't do anything. In my campaigns I houserule the requirement for components (when an arcane character is created they pic verbal or somatic [gestues], and all their powers require that component) it maintains some of the essence of the arcane classes which I think 4e lacked. But even if you aren't doing that most all of the wizards powers are ranged or area so by useing a power you invite the person who has you in the garrote to deal an aditional 1d10+str damage in opportunity in the proccess, so unless your attacker is weak you are only hastening your demise.
#8
xxphilosopherxx
Jan 14, 2009 14:31:09
But even if you aren't doing that most all of the wizards powers are ranged or area so by useing a power you invite the person who has you in the garrote to deal an aditional 1d10+str damage in opportunity in the proccess, so unless your attacker is weak you are only hastening your demise.

Can you even use ranged and area powers while grabbed? Again, i don't have anything to reference to, but i was under the impression only certain kinds of powers could be used.
#9
vebrandsson
Jan 14, 2009 14:43:16 While grabbed you can do anything you normally can do while immobilized, so you can use ranged and area powers, but the creature grabbing you gets a free attack of opportunity before your attack goes off, so as I said you're only hastening your demise if you try that.
#10
xxphilosopherxx
Jan 14, 2009 14:46:18
While grabbed you can do anything you normally can do while immobilized, so you can use ranged and area powers, but the creature grabbing you gets a free attack of opportunity before your attack goes off, so as I said you're only hastening your demise if you try that.

Ah, i was certian, at the least, that you could only direct attacks at the grabbing creature. Perhaps that's what i was thinking of.
#11
vebrandsson
Jan 14, 2009 14:59:32
Ah, i was certian, at the least, that you could only direct attacks at the grabbing creature. Perhaps that's what i was thinking of.

Actually, no, in 4e you don't have to direct attacks at the grabbing creature, but the grabbing creature gets an attack of opportunity against you regardless of the target.
#12
mellored
Jan 14, 2009 15:02:59 Something you may want to add to the garrote is the attacker can't attack while maintaining the hold, and it takes 2 hands to do so. So no garroting a ranged caster then getting free OA's with a fullblade against it while it struggles.
#13
vebrandsson
Jan 14, 2009 15:08:43
Something you may want to add to the garrote is the attacker can't attack while maintaining the hold, and it takes 2 hands to do so. So no garroting a ranged caster then getting free OA's with a fullblade against it while it struggles.

Don't you think the 1d10+str OAs with the garrote are bad enough?
#14
lobotaru
Jan 14, 2009 18:02:45 Woops, I forgot to mention that the extra damage each round comes from an attack action from the attacker.

As for the net, superior versions can be constructed with higher escape DCs. The second best net would probably be constructed of silk rope with a DC of 16, and then onto some kind of magical materials of increasingly greater potencies.

As for the Garrote again, the major reason I chose to make it out of combat only is for both realism and also to balance it against the bugbear power. The bugbear strangle isn't just using a garrote, he is using it in conjunction with a power. Also, in reality it is very hard to garrote someone while in combat, where he is moving near constantly. Not impossible, but very difficult. One could make it optional where if the target is granting combat advantage to the attacker that it is possible to use a garrote to attack him with a -4 penalty on the attack roll (thus negating the combat advantage bonus and imposing a -2 penalty).
#15
Shadowfax7
Jan 14, 2009 19:39:43 Regarding your Combat Net . . .

I also made a Net for my campaign. Here are 3 differences my Net has from yours. Take them as suggestions if you like:

1) A sucessful hit causes the target to become Restrained (as per the 4e condition).

2) Range is 2/2, meaning max of 2 squares (10'). This is because the trailing rope attached to the Net is 10' long. There wouldn't be any Nets with 25' long trailing ropes (what would be needed for a 5 square range), as they would be unmanageable. The purpose of the trailing rope is to control the Net.

3) I gave it the Light Thrown property. The Heavy Thrown property is for weapons that cause more damage if thrown with force. The Net is a finesse weapon meant to be thrown upon a target and restrain him/her, not significantly damage him/her. I would also make it a Dex vs. Ref attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lobotaru Jan 14, 2009 9:09:10	Since both of these were missing from the PHB and they are relatively easy for players to construct with hemp rope, I thought it would be necessary to mention them to some degree. Here is what I've come up with for rules regarding Garrotes and combat nets. 1) Garrote: A garrote is a length of cord, rope, or durable threads attached to a single handle or two handles, and is designed to choke an unsuspecting target. Making an attack with a garrote: An attacker can only make a garrote attempt against a target not engaged in combat, and the attacker must have combat advantage against the target. The initial attack with the garrote is strength vs. reflex or dexterity vs. reflex, whichever is better for the attacker. If the attack succeeds, the target is grabbed, is effectively mute (his airway is cut off, thus preventing him from calling out for help or otherwise using his voice), and takes 1d10 + strength modifier damage. Maintaining the garrote: In all respects, maintaining a garrote attack follows all the same rules for maintaining a grab. However, the target suffers a -2 penalty on checks to escape the grab due to the advantageous position of the attacker, cannot speak or call out for help while the grab is maintained, and every round the target fails to escape the grab the attacker deals another 1d10 + strength modifier damage as it chokes to death and the garrote squeezes the target's neck. Special: Bonus damage from class features do not apply to the damage dealt by a garrote attack. Also, an attacker can only garrote a target one size category smaller or larger than himself. Targets that are too small make it too difficult to precisely apply the garrote and targets that are too large are impossible to garrote because the character can't reach all the way around the target's neck to garrote them. 2) Combat Nets: These specially prepared nets are attached to a length of rope and are designed for throwing at a target. The inside of the net has small hooks to catch the skin and clothes of the target, making these nets very tedious to escape from, and the length of rope allows the attacker to control the movement of his quarry. Attacking with a combat net: A combat net has a maximum range of 5 squares, and counts as a heavy thrown weapon (uses the attacker's strength modifier instead of dexterity modifier for the attack roll). The attacker makes a strength vs. reflex roll to hit the target. If the target is hit, it takes no damage, but becomes caught in the net. While caught in the net, the target is considered slowed, grants combat advantage to attackers, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls. An attacker can make a strength check to force the netted target to move in the same manner as a grab. Escaping from a combat net: Due to the construction of these nets, getting out of them is extremely tedious. The target must make an escape attempt against DC 14 to get out of the net. Special: A combat net can only be used once per encounter. If the net attack misses, it is wasted for the encounter. This is due to the fact that a net must be packed properly to throw it, so once it is released it must be carefully refolded. This can be done during a short rest. What do you guys think of these?
#2 vebrandsson Jan 14, 2009 9:14:01	Well I'm not going to touch on the Garrote other than I personally think its a bad idea, but the Net appeared in Dragon #368 and is simular in some minor ways to what you discribe.
#3 lobotaru Jan 14, 2009 12:14:35	Well I'm not going to touch on the Garrote other than I personally think its a bad idea, but the Net appeared in Dragon #368 and is simular in some minor ways to what you discribe. Could you please elaborate on why you think its a bad idea? Is it the damage, the silencing effect of it, or something else?
#4 vebrandsson Jan 14, 2009 13:31:30	Well the way you have the Garrote written makes it look more like a power that requires a specific weapon than like a weapon itself. The fact that it can only be used out of combat makes it near useless outside of a tool for cold blooded assassination, which is something only evil characters would use. My last issues is should an NPC catch your wizard or warlock, or any other character without training in acrobatics or athletics that character basically has next to no chance to escape and the player gets to sit there and do very little while his character slowly dies as he can't call for help or other wise manage to save himself.
#5 celloshane Jan 14, 2009 13:52:34	the player gets to sit there and do very little while his character slowly dies as he can't call for help or other wise manage to save himself. How so? The character can attempt any actions he can normally attempt while grabbed except speaking. The garrotte doesn't seem overpowered to me. Are you presuming that Wizards and Warlocks can't use powers when silenced? If so, that's a mixup with the 3.5 rules; 4e powers don't contain any verbal components. I have trouble keeping things like that straight myself.
#6 xxphilosopherxx Jan 14, 2009 14:04:21	I don't have my materials with me, but i believe there is a Bugbear Strangler (or somesuch) that uses a garrote in combat. That would probably be worth referencing for ideas. Since the combat net has a flat-rate escape DC, it will only be truly useful for lower levels. I don't know if you intended that, but it might be something to consider.
#7 vebrandsson Jan 14, 2009 14:05:36	How so? The character can attempt any actions he can normally attempt while grabbed except speaking. The garrotte doesn't seem overpowered to me. Are you presuming that Wizards and Warlocks can't use powers when silenced? If so, that's a mixup with the 3.5 rules; 4e powers don't contain any verbal components. I have trouble keeping things like that straight myself. I realize 4e has no spell components for spells, which I dislike, a tied up gaged wizard has all his powers but a tied up ranger can't do anything. In my campaigns I houserule the requirement for components (when an arcane character is created they pic verbal or somatic [gestues], and all their powers require that component) it maintains some of the essence of the arcane classes which I think 4e lacked. But even if you aren't doing that most all of the wizards powers are ranged or area so by useing a power you invite the person who has you in the garrote to deal an aditional 1d10+str damage in opportunity in the proccess, so unless your attacker is weak you are only hastening your demise.
#8 xxphilosopherxx Jan 14, 2009 14:31:09	But even if you aren't doing that most all of the wizards powers are ranged or area so by useing a power you invite the person who has you in the garrote to deal an aditional 1d10+str damage in opportunity in the proccess, so unless your attacker is weak you are only hastening your demise. Can you even use ranged and area powers while grabbed? Again, i don't have anything to reference to, but i was under the impression only certain kinds of powers could be used.
#9 vebrandsson Jan 14, 2009 14:43:16	While grabbed you can do anything you normally can do while immobilized, so you can use ranged and area powers, but the creature grabbing you gets a free attack of opportunity before your attack goes off, so as I said you're only hastening your demise if you try that.
#10 xxphilosopherxx Jan 14, 2009 14:46:18	While grabbed you can do anything you normally can do while immobilized, so you can use ranged and area powers, but the creature grabbing you gets a free attack of opportunity before your attack goes off, so as I said you're only hastening your demise if you try that. Ah, i was certian, at the least, that you could only direct attacks at the grabbing creature. Perhaps that's what i was thinking of.
#11 vebrandsson Jan 14, 2009 14:59:32	Ah, i was certian, at the least, that you could only direct attacks at the grabbing creature. Perhaps that's what i was thinking of. Actually, no, in 4e you don't have to direct attacks at the grabbing creature, but the grabbing creature gets an attack of opportunity against you regardless of the target.
#12 mellored Jan 14, 2009 15:02:59	Something you may want to add to the garrote is the attacker can't attack while maintaining the hold, and it takes 2 hands to do so. So no garroting a ranged caster then getting free OA's with a fullblade against it while it struggles.
#13 vebrandsson Jan 14, 2009 15:08:43	Something you may want to add to the garrote is the attacker can't attack while maintaining the hold, and it takes 2 hands to do so. So no garroting a ranged caster then getting free OA's with a fullblade against it while it struggles. Don't you think the 1d10+str OAs with the garrote are bad enough?
#14 lobotaru Jan 14, 2009 18:02:45	Woops, I forgot to mention that the extra damage each round comes from an attack action from the attacker. As for the net, superior versions can be constructed with higher escape DCs. The second best net would probably be constructed of silk rope with a DC of 16, and then onto some kind of magical materials of increasingly greater potencies. As for the Garrote again, the major reason I chose to make it out of combat only is for both realism and also to balance it against the bugbear power. The bugbear strangle isn't just using a garrote, he is using it in conjunction with a power. Also, in reality it is very hard to garrote someone while in combat, where he is moving near constantly. Not impossible, but very difficult. One could make it optional where if the target is granting combat advantage to the attacker that it is possible to use a garrote to attack him with a -4 penalty on the attack roll (thus negating the combat advantage bonus and imposing a -2 penalty).
#15 Shadowfax7 Jan 14, 2009 19:39:43	Regarding your Combat Net . . . I also made a Net for my campaign. Here are 3 differences my Net has from yours. Take them as suggestions if you like: 1) A sucessful hit causes the target to become Restrained (as per the 4e condition). 2) Range is 2/2, meaning max of 2 squares (10'). This is because the trailing rope attached to the Net is 10' long. There wouldn't be any Nets with 25' long trailing ropes (what would be needed for a 5 square range), as they would be unmanageable. The purpose of the trailing rope is to control the Net. 3) I gave it the Light Thrown property. The Heavy Thrown property is for weapons that cause more damage if thrown with force. The Net is a finesse weapon meant to be thrown upon a target and restrain him/her, not significantly damage him/her. I would also make it a Dex vs. Ref attack.