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| #1Johnathan_VagabondSep 17, 2009 14:36:46 | I am, generally speaking, displeased with the low number of at-will powers per character. As a method by which to adjust this, I'd like to create a broad category of powers from which to draw from. So this is part of a list of homebrew rules I'm assembling, to be announced to... well, to my players. But I suppose available upon request (would you really request that?). Also, I don't plan to give them more choices to strain their limited supply, rather, they will be allowed to choose 2 class at-will powers and 2 'General Specific' powers. Power Source PowersThese at-will powers are available to characters with that power source, be it Arcane, Martial, Primal, or Divine. They are general functions that individuals from that 'school' of source should be able to work out, regardless of their specialization. Terminology: To adjust for the differences between individual classes contained within broader categories, I'm introducing some terminology. Main: The "Main" stat, which will frequently be used in the Attack and Hit lines, refers to that classes main stat. This is to compensate between variances in different classes. For example, both the Rogue and the Fighter are Martial classes, able to draw on the Martial source powers. However the rogue uses Dexterity for all of his attacks and the fighter uses Strength. Limiting a martial power to either of those stats would needlessly handicap on or the other. So a "Main" stat refers to the stat which the class uses for it's attack powers. However, once the stat has been settled (in the case of classes with 2 main stats) it cannot be changed. Veiled: Veiled isn't a term explicit to the generalist powers, just an abbreviation for something certain powers already do. When a creature cannot gain line of sight to targets beyond a certain distance they are Veiled. So if a creature did not have line of sight against targets more than 10 squares away is considered to be Veiled 10. Martial ExploitsDisarm
Arcane Spells
Divine Prayers
Primal InvocationsHaving some trouble coming up with these. Class Role PowersClass Role powers are basic skills all members of a certain role can manage, whether it's through combat skill or magical powers. While they may be stronger in specific situations than Power Source powers, they are also more limited in scope. Defender Powers
Leader PowersStriker PowersController Powers |
| #2jetzineSep 17, 2009 16:06:32 | You would REALLY like the system that my group plays with. We've been rewriting all of the classes to fill the similar desire for a more centralized, abstracted system of powers that represents the basics for everybody, as opposed to the somewhat random, overly specific ablities that are currently laid out for us. I like your thinking. I'd love to compare notes. Here's an example of our fighter and rogue. This is like, the second or third draft. I don't know about balance yet, but the ideas are there. One final note. We have what we call an enchancement margin, where the higher you roll, the stronger the effect becomes. +1/x means +1 per x points over the target number. For example, if I'm a fighter and I bull rush someone with a Fortitude defense of 17, and I roll a 28, I would push the target a total of three squares (one originally, and one additional square per 5 points over 17). This represents the concept that everybody can do the basics from the start, as we would imagine them to be able to do, but as we level up, our bonuses increase and we get better at doing what defines us. Depending on your ability score array and choice of feats/specializations, this means you'll improve in different areas at different rates. Fundamental Maneuvers (fighter)
Attacks Standard Action Fighter Maneuver At-Will: Martial, Weapon (conditional) Aid Attack Choose a target within your melee reach and make a Melee Basic Attack vs. AC 10. If you succeed, an ally gets a +2 bonus to his or her next attack. Increase the bonus by +1/10. Bull Rush Make a bull rush (Strength vs. Fortitude) and push the target 1 additional square/5. Charge When you make a charge attack, make an additional Strength check vs. DC 10 and increase the bonus to your attack roll by +1/10. Disarm Strength vs. Reflex. If you succeed, your target’s weapon is on the ground in a square adjacent to him. Roll 1d8 to decide which square it lands in. If it lands in your square and you have a free hand, make a Dexterity attack vs. AC 10 to catch the weapon. Dual Strike Make two Melee Basic Attacks against one target or two adjacent targets. Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons. Feint Intimidate vs. Passive Insight. If you succeed, your target grants combat advantage provokes an opportunity attack from you. If you fail, you grant combat advantage to your target and provoke an opportunity attack. Creatures attempting to feint against you do so against your regular Insight check. Grapple Make a grab attack (Strength vs. Reflex). You can attempt to sustain grab while moving by making a Strength vs. Fortitude attack against the grabbed creature’s. If you succeed by 5 points or more, you can throw the grabbed creature 1 square/5. If an outside attack would end your grab by pulling, pushing, or sliding you, make a Constitution check against the opposed attack roll. If you succeed, the grab is sustained. Power Attack Make a Melee Basic Attack or a Ranged Basic Attack (heavy thrown weapon only). Gain up to half your Strength modifier as a bonus to the damage roll. Take the same penalty to your attack roll. Trip Strength vs. Reflex. Your target grants combat advantage until the start of your next turn. If you succeed by 5 points or more, your target falls prone. Special: If you fail any of these checks by 5 or more, you grant combat advantage to your opponent until the start of your next turn.
Counters Opportunity Action Fighter Maneuver At-Will: Martial, Weapon (conditional) Aid Defense Trigger: An ally within your melee reach is attacked. Make a melee basic attack against the triggering attack roll. If you succeed, that adjacent ally gets a +2 bonus to all defenses against the triggering attack. Increase the bonus by +1/5. Dodge Trigger: You are attacked. Replace the base 10 + ½ level for both your AC and Reflex defenses with the result of your Dexterity check. If you beat the triggering attack roll by 5 points or more, you may shift 1 square. Parry Trigger: You are attacked. Make a Wisdom attack against the triggering attacker’s Reflex defense. If you succeed, the triggering attack roll takes a -1 penalty. Increase this penalty by -1/5 Reposition Trigger: An enemy moves towards you or attacks you. Make a Wisdom attack against the triggering attacker’s Will defense. If you succeed, either shift one square or slide the target one square. Stances Minor Action Fighter Maneuver At-Will: Martial, Stance Resolve Make a Constitution check. While in this stance, you gain a bonus to your Fortitude defense equal to your Constitution check divided by 10. Alertness Make a Dexterity check. While in this stance, you gain a bonus to your Reflex defense equal to your Dexterity check divided by 10. Focus Make a Wisdom check. While in this stance, you gain a bonus to your Will defense equal to your Wisdom check divided by 10.
Rogue Tactics Rogue Tactics are the bread and butter of a Rogue’s skill set. They allow him trick, beguile, and manipulate his enemies into the position that is most advantageous for him. Strikes Standard Action Rogue Tactic At-Will: Martial, Weapon Aim Make a melee basic attack or a ranged basic attack against your target’s Reflex defense. Gain up to half your Dexterity modifier as a bonus to the attack roll. Take the same penalty to AC and Reflex until the start of your next turn. Disarm Dexterity vs. Reflex. If you succeed, your target’s weapon is on the ground in a square adjacent to him. Roll 1d8 to decide which square it lands in. If it lands in your square and you have a free hand, make a Dexterity vs. AC 10 attack to catch the weapon. Double Shot Throw two light thrown weapons as ranged basic attacks in one attack action. Do not apply your ability modifier to damage for either attack. Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons. Feint Bluff vs. Passive Insight. If you succeed, your target grants combat advantage provokes an opportunity attack from you. If you fail, you grant combat advantage to your target and provoke an opportunity attack. Creatures attempting to feint against you do so against your active Insight check. Rattle Charisma vs. Will. Your target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn. If you succeed by 5 points or more, your target shifts 1 square away from you (+1/5). Trip Dexterity vs. Reflex. Your target grants combat advantage until the start of your next turn. If you succeed by 5 points or more, your target falls prone. Wound Dexterity vs. Fortitude. Your target is slowed. If you succeed by 10 points or more, your target may instead be weakened. If you succeed by 20 points or more, your target may instead be stunned. Whichever wound you choose, it lasts until the end of your next turn.
Throat Punch Concussion Ringer Mercy
Foils Opportunity Action Rogue Tactic At-Will: Martial, Weapon (conditional) Dodge Trigger: You are attacked. Replace the base 10 + ½ level for both your AC and Reflex defenses with the result of your Dexterity check. If you beat the triggering attack roll by 5 points or more, you may shift 1 square. Parry Trigger: You are attacked. Make a Dexterity attack against the triggering attacker’s Reflex defense. If you succeed, the triggering attack roll takes a -1 penalty (-1/5). Reposition Trigger: An enemy moves towards you. Make a Dexterity attack against the triggering attacker’s Will defense. If you succeed, either shift one square or slide the target one square. Tumble Trigger: You provoke an opportunity attack. Make a Dexterity check against the triggering attack roll’s result. If you succeed, you can shift 1 square (+1/5). Slippery Mind Trigger: You are hit by an attack targeting your Will defense. Make an Intelligence check against the triggering attack roll’s result. If you succeed, you gain a +1 bonus to your Will defense (+1/10). |
| #3jetzineSep 17, 2009 16:19:09 | The formatting is all messed up. I will be posting all the classes we've got so far (wizard, fighter, rogue, and warlock) in a new thread in the coming months. An earlier version of our wizard is up in an old thread entitled "A Wizard of a Different Color". Try to take a look at it. It's the prototype for everything. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Just gotta say, that playing with these mechanics so far has been awesome. My favorite is the warlock. |
| #4bone_nagaSep 20, 2009 8:15:54 | Disarm as an at-will is way too overpowered. Theres plenty of other threads explaining that, but if you want it to be balanced, change it to an encounter, and make it only work on bloodied enemies (or go the route someone else did of making it an at-will but with the caveat that it can only target each enemy once per encounter). |
| #5jetzineSep 20, 2009 9:34:02 | And as I've expressed, I don't agree. Our DM knows how to deal with it, and we haven't had any problems with it. It's only been exciting and fun when someone can actually manage to pull it off. This is an old version, anyway. Our version now can be interrupted by an OA. Very few things are actually overpowered if you have a DM that knows what he/she is doing. |
| #6bone_nagaSep 20, 2009 11:05:36 | And as I've expressed, I don't agree. Our DM knows how to deal with it, and we haven't had any problems with it. It's only been exciting and fun when someone can actually manage to pull it off. This is an old version, anyway. Our version now can be interrupted by an OA. Very few things are actually overpowered if you have a DM that knows what he/she is doing. I really hate that argument. I realize that in this case when you're talking about houserules, you do in fact know whether or not your DM can handle it, but that doesn't make it balanced. Balanced is when you don't need a DM that knows what hes doing to make it work. That was a common defense of many aspects of 3.x that "well any good DM wouldn't allow that" and new DMs were just expected to figure it out. |
| #7Johnathan_VagabondSep 20, 2009 21:13:14 | Why is disarm as an at-will over powered? It only costs a move to retrieve the weapon and doesn't provoke an AO. All you lose is your move action. |
| #8jetzineSep 22, 2009 10:48:49 | Why is disarm as an at-will over powered? It only costs a move to retrieve the weapon and doesn't provoke an AO. All you lose is your move action. Exactly. This is more the point. I really don't even think it's that powerful of an effect. Drop your weapon, pick it up. How that's even comparable to dying is beyond me. I realize that in this case when you're talking about houserules, you do in fact know whether or not your DM can handle it, but that doesn't make it balanced. Yes it does. You're lying to yourself. The only real balance that exists in this game is decided between the PC and the DM. The only objective is having fun. I understand the desire for a more objective feeling ruleset, but the game in actuality is not that abstract. It's possible to have many different disarm mechanics for many different styles of play, as long as there's the understanding between players that it is fair and balanced. Somebody just posted an idea for disarming as a status effect. I don't agree with the way this mechanic reflects the action of disarming, but I suppose it could work if you want to play that way. You have to start accepting that you can't impose a completely objective sense of balance on an entire community of players. Balanced is when you don't need a DM that knows what hes doing to make it work. That was a common defense of many aspects of 3.x that "well any good DM wouldn't allow that" and new DMs were just expected to figure it out. You're right to consider new DMs and right to demand balance in this sense. I mean, this is why they're houserules, and I have to concede to your point there. To this I have a couple of points of response: 1. DMs, noob or not, have A LOT of figuring out to do before they even get started. Being a DM is a huge undertaking. You're managing reality based on the expectations of other people. Weird. So in that regard, I have little sympathy. 2. We're not altering the core mechanic or reprinting the core books. We're adding our own mechanics based on our own interactions. It's good that you have as strong a view on power level, and it's good we have these back and forths, because this kind of exchange within a community of players is what allows the objective balance you're looking for to take shape. Albeit slowly. On that note, I've made disarm an encounter power for our group. Not for the reason of it being overpowered as an at-will, though. I still don't think it would be overpowered if used at-will, but I think it could potentially get boring. The concept of using something once per encounter has to be justified by more than just mechanical impact. For us, there needs to be an in-game reason that a character would only be able to do something once per encounter. For disarm, I felt that the whole "that technique won't work on me more than once" idea worked well in the context of that ability. That way, there are more stakes behind disarming someone in an encounter. I might toy with the concept of recharging the power somehow through some feat of trickery (something the rogue's disarm could have over the fighter's disarm). Hope this sheds some light on things, Jetzine |
| #9mb_webguySep 22, 2009 18:43:58 | I don't think it would necessarily be bad to have a regular disarm action that's a melee (or ranged?) attack at a +5 difficulty (since you're specifically targeting the enemy's hand rather than just trying to hit him), assuming the enemy can recover the weapon as a move action. On the other hand, the cinematic disarm where the enemy's weapon goes flying, optionally being caught by the hero, would definitely qualify as a decently high-level encounter or daily power for maybe a Rogue or Ranger. You normally see this with swashbucklers and other Dexterous fighters rather than the more muscular stereotypes. Maybe something like... Dramatic Disarm Rogue/Ranger Attack 9(15?) |
| #10dave2008Sep 23, 2009 21:42:47 |
Jetzine, I am really interested in what you are trying to do here. I do have a few questions and thoughts for you: 1) Assuming all of the powers are 1st-level At-Wills, how many do you let your players have/use? 2) Are you doing something similar for encounter and daily powers? 3) I had a hard time reading the Wizard post, it was formated oddly. What is the jist of what you are trying to do with spells? It sounded interesting, but I was not sure (based on others comments) that I wasn't missing something. 4) Giving that you are trying to increase the abstract nature of the powers I would recommend putting all martial powers (fighter adn rogue) in one pool, all arcane powers (wizard & warlock) in another and all divine powers in a third. This is basically what I am doing in my campagin (even for encounter and daily powers). Thus a players choice of powers defines their class and not the other way around. |
| #11jetzineSep 24, 2009 11:25:40 | Jetzine, I am really interested in what you are trying to do here. I do have a few questions and thoughts for you: I don't know if you're including the essential spells and evocations as part of your question. They get all 4 essential spells, magic missile, and violent evocation as class features. Metaphorically, Violent Evocation is the wizard's sword. Magic Missile is his bow. In that version, the at-will powers are as normal, and two at-wills are selected with humans getting a third. Think of them of having the same relationship that martial powers have to weapons. Wizards don't get weapons, and implements have the inverse relationship to powers that weapons to (a power enhances a weapon, an implement enhances a power), so we wanted to establish the basic blast of elemental energy or magic missile that could then be enhanced by powers. So a fighter's basic attack is a swing with a greatsword, and Cleave lets him carry the swing forward into an adjacent fighter. A wizard's basic attack is firing off an icy bolt, and Numb lets him freeze their joints and slow people with it. THIS is our idea of balance. The at-will powers are changing right now. A lot of what you see listed there as "level 1 at-will attack powers" might become metamagic feats. Things are in flux at the moment. 2) Are you doing something similar for encounter and daily powers? Encounter powers work the same way. They have this feature called modulation that lets you amplify their effects based on how high your roll is. All of this is being retooled however, as we made a significant tweak to the powers system. We're now grouping all encounter and utility powers together, and instead of arbitrarily dividing them up between levels as they are now, they are divided up by tier. There are heroic encounter powers, paragon encounter powers, and epic encounter powers. You get one at every odd-numbered level until you start replacing at each new tier, and you can choose as many attack and/or utility powers as you want. You could have 5 utility powers and 0 attack powers by 9th level if you wanted. We don't feel the need to box people into gearing their characters around combat, which 4E very openly does. That encompasses a handful of play styles, but D&D is open enough to provide a wider plethora of character paths. Daily powers are now daily slots that you can prepare rituals or techniques in. Believe it or not, the way it all works out, it isn't as drastic of a balance adjustment as it seems from my description. My DM and I are actually meeting tonight to work out the implications of this system and where to go from here. 3) I had a hard time reading the Wizard post, it was formated oddly. What is the jist of what you are trying to do with spells? It sounded interesting, but I was not sure (based on others comments) that I wasn't missing something. I'm not sure what you're exactly referring to here, but I have changed the formatting for powers a little bit. Could you maybe be a bit more specific? Edit:Oh ****! I know what you're talking about! My DM's notes were stored in stat blocks, which seem to have been taken away from the new forums, which I hate. Sorry about that. His notes about the philosophy of magic that informed our design are blended in with my notes on design. Guess we'll have to fix that somehow. Anybody know how to bring back stat blocks? 4) Giving that you are trying to increase the abstract nature of the powers I would recommend putting all martial powers (fighter adn rogue) in one pool, all arcane powers (wizard & warlock) in another and all divine powers in a third. This is basically what I am doing in my campagin (even for encounter and daily powers). Thus a players choice of powers defines their class and not the other way around. 2 steps ahead of you. This is the recent direction we've started to develop in, partially inspired by this thread. I think the fact that more than one person is thinking along these lines is a great thing. We've got a martial Combat Training that all the martial classes get. The divine one is incomplete at the moment. Whether or not there will be an arcane pool is in debate. Justifying a distinction between things as mythologically similar as wizard and warlock demands different approaches to magic that may make such a thing an impossibility. There actually may be more overlap between warlocks and evil clerics than warlocks and wizards. I'm excited that a lot of these questions are being dealt with tonight. I'll be sure to post what we come up with. We're starting to post all our designs/campaign info on a blog we just started. |
| #12dave2008Sep 24, 2009 14:03:07 | We're now grouping all encounter and utility powers together, and instead of arbitrarily dividing them up between levels as they are now, they are divided up by tier. There are heroic encounter powers, paragon encounter powers, and epic encounter powers. You get one at every odd-numbered level until you start replacing at each new tier, and you can choose as many attack and/or utility powers as you want. You could have 5 utility powers and 0 attack powers by 9th level if you wanted. We don't feel the need to box people into gearing their characters around combat, which 4E very openly does. I think this approach has a lot of merits. I have been thinking about how to incorporate utility powers and I like this simple approach. I am not making my players replace powers though. They get to keep them all, but they can only use so many powers in a day. 2 steps ahead of you. This is the recent direction we've started to develop in, partially inspired by this thread. I think the fact that more than one person is thinking along these lines is a great thing. We've got a martial Combat Training that all the martial classes get. The divine one is incomplete at the moment. Whether or not there will be an arcane pool is in debate. Justifying a distinction between things as mythologically similar as wizard and warlock demands different approaches to magic that may make such a thing an impossibility. There actually may be more overlap between warlocks and evil clerics than warlocks and wizards. I'm excited that a lot of these questions are being dealt with tonight. I'll be sure to post what we come up with. We're starting to post all our designs/campaign info on a blog we just started. After readng this tread last night I clarified some ideas I was working on and I completely got rid of classes all together. Here is the basis of the power mechanics I will be using: Primary power sources are determined by your Race's origin (and thus the character's race). They are: Arcane (Far Realm), Astral (Astral Sea=Divine), Elemental (Elemental Chaos), and Primal (Prime Material Plane - shadow and fey are variants of primal). Characters can use a feat to gain access to non native primary power sources. Secondary powers sources are part of all races and determine how a character accesses their primary power source(s). You must "activate" your secondary power source to use powers from that source. You activate the secondary power source by using a feat. The secondary power sources are: ki (spirit), martial (body), and psionic (mind). Powers, like feats, have prerequisites. To use a power you must meet the powers prerequisite. This way powers build upon other powers. In order to use a 23rd level martial attack power you must have a certain 17th level martial attack power, etc. Thus, you cannot simply jump from martial to ki to psionic; you must build up your powers. I may change this to a per tier requirement instead of level and I might add more specific prerequisites. Characters get access to roughly 2x the number of powers (as listed in the PHB); however, they can still only use the same number of powers per day. You can recharge an encounter power (of your tier) by spending 2 healing surges and 3 surges for a daily power. Reduce the cost by one surge for each tier the power is below your current tier. Heroic Tier players cannot recharge their powers. Power swapping. You may swap encounter and daily powers for more at-will powers. 1 encounter power = 2 at-will powers and 1 daily power = 3 at-will powers. So in theory you could have 6 at-will powers at first level w/ no encounter or daily powers. |