Generic Powers - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Generic Powers

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zagora_01
Aug 04, 2008 12:15:25 This is a thought to generalizing powers based on weapons used and possibly roles. It seems that the role is mostly based on the weapons used (at least when it comes to martial powers).

What if you could use some of the ranger two weapon fighting powers as a fighter using a two weapon fighting style. As the fighter you take the feat two-weapon fighting giving you access to those powers. Now, I know a lot folks are going to balk at this, but consider that some classless systems have already been put out and wizards will probably put some out later anyway.

My goal is to add options to the existing class without having to recreate the game.
#2
Shiftkitty
Aug 04, 2008 14:55:20 I have an albino drow fighter who uses a two weapon style combined with some awesome acrobatics (and no, he's not a Drizzt clone) who simply wouldn't work with the current RAW. He had too many tweaks that are currently not covered, so I grandfathered his kung-fu in. I picked from the powers that fit him regardless of class and rebuilt him that way.

I agree with you that there should be some kind of powers that are cross class, but I don't know how I'd work them in. Would they be in addition to the current power allotment, or would this be in lieu of it? Would they have attacks, or would they simply be enhancements to the original class powers?

I know you can multi-class to get certain features of other classes, but something about it doesn't quite fit. Can't put my finger on it quite yet.
#3
factol_rhys_dup
Aug 04, 2008 16:15:34 How did you manage the two-weapon fighter?

Even with multiclass feats, you can't get anything better than double attacks on a per-encounter basis. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat seems a bit sad as far as fighting styles go, simply giving you +1 to attacks. It doesn't seem to feel like fighting with two weapons.

All that might be okay, however, if it weren't for the real downside: money. Do you fight with a level-appropriate longsword and a rusty old kitchen knife in your off-hand? Or, do you spend extra money to have two level-appropriate weapons and get no benefit from the off-hand weapon?

I guess you could be a Fighter and just fight with two weapons for the +1 damage. You could have an off-hand magic weapon a few levels behind your main one (so that it's easily affordable) and only call upon its powers when you use your multiclassed Ranger attacks.
#4
Shiftkitty
Aug 05, 2008 13:59:30 He's a high level character being translated over from 3 to 4, so I just assigned what he needed and ad-libbed anything that wasn't covered by the RAW. The 4e Two Weapon rules would have clipped him severely, so I just gave him two attacks at his old attack bonuses. His swords are both magical and both acquired through adventuring. One is a flametongue longsword, the other is a basic +2 weapon. The bonuses from the swords and other bits of his character background (ambidextrous, trained by a two-weapon specialist, etc.), all contributed to his suffering no penalties.

I'm trying my hand at a pure 4e Two Weapon fighter, but I haven't finished him yet.
#5
zagora_01
Aug 05, 2008 21:21:56 That is kind of what i'm talking about. I looked at a lot of the powers. Rangers have two weapon fighting that allows you to hit two foes. fighters don't have an at-will equivalent but they both do have a sure strike like power that is almost exactly the same. Also, the fighters passing attack and the rangers two-fanged strike argueably do the same function.

The part that separates rangers from the other classes with two weapon fighting is that they can use two one handed weapons.

I'm still going through the powers and seeing what is class specific and what is not.
#6
zagora_01
Aug 05, 2008 22:21:49 Here's a quick rough draft

I didn't want to deviate too far from the orignal rules, so I decided to take the avenue of multi-class feats. Using the existing ones as a model I created feats that allow you to take powers from other class but didn't specify what class or that you are delving into that class. The power selection is more limited however.

There will be some wholes because i didn't review each power seperately. If there is a favorable response I will continue. This is just to test the waters.

here we go

New Multi-class feats
Two-weapon fighting Novice
Prerequisites: Two-weapon fighting feat, 4th level
Benefit: You can swap one encounter attack power you know for one encounter attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of two melee weapons. You may only use the melee weapon aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.

Two-weapon fighting Acolyte
Prerequisites: Two-weapon fighting feat, 8th level
Benefit: You can swap one Utility power you know for one utility power outside of your class that specifies the use of two melee weapons. You may only use the melee weapon aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.

Two-weapon fighting Adept
Prerequisites: Two-weapon fighting feat, 10th level
Benefit: You can swap one daily attack power you know for one daily attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of two melee weapons. You may only use the melee weapon aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.

Sword and Board Novice
Prerequisites: Proficiency with large shields (please keep in mind most non fighters or paladins will have to spend a feat be able to use this feat), 4th level
Benefit: You can swap one encounter attack power you know for one encounter attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of a shield. You may only use shield aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.

Sword and Board Acolyte
Prerequisites: Proficiency with large shields (please keep in mind most non fighters or paladins will have to spend a feat be able to use this feat), 8th level
Benefit: You can swap one utility power you know for one utility power outside of your class that specifies the use of a shield. You may only use shield aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.

Sword and Board Adept
Prerequisites: Proficiency with large shields (please keep in mind most non fighters or paladins will have to spend a feat be able to use this feat), 10th level
Benefit: You can swap one daily attack power you know for one daily attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of a shield. You may only use shield aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.

Heavy Blade Novice
Prerequisites: Weapon focus (heavy blades), 4th level
Benefit: You can swap one encounter attack power you know for one encounter attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of heavy blades. You may only use the heavy blade aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.

Heavy Blade Acolyte
Prerequisites: Weapon focus (heavy blades), 8th level
Benefit: You can swap one utility power you know for one utility power outside of your class that specifies the use of a heavy blades. You may only use the heavy blade aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.

Heavy Blade Adept
Prerequisites: Weapon focus (heavy blades), 10th level
Benefit: You can swap one Daily attack power you know for one Daily attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of heavy blades. You may only use the heavy blade aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.
#7
factol_rhys_dup
Aug 05, 2008 23:42:29 Actually, maybe the best way to go would be to come up with some scattered TWF powers for fighters and rogues. I see those two as the only two classes that really support TWF. Rangers can still be the masters of the style, but the others could benefit from a handful of TWF attacks that still support their combat role.
#8
lolwatzors
Aug 06, 2008 8:05:19 ~personally think sly flourish was designed two-weapon fighting in mind~

Also, the +1 to damage, and +1 to AC and Ref, mean you have comparable defense to a sword and shield fighter, with slightly high damage out put.
#9
batshido
Aug 06, 2008 9:46:55
Here's a quick rough draft

I can see where you're going with this, but there's a problem.

There's nothing here that can't already be done. The TWF stuff is a Ranger multiclass, the Sword and Board is a Fighter or Paladin multiclass and the Heavy Blade stuff is also a Fighter multiclass.

All you're doing is bypassing the initial feat. Now, you might see that as a good thing, I don't know. It's not really adding anything to the game, though. It's just rewriting stuff that's already there, and doing it in a way that circumvents systems that are already in place. That might be what you're going for, but it's going to go head to head against what's in the books and win because of it's easier access.

An easier fix would be to raise the number of multiclass feats you can take to 2 or even 3. That would require basically no work and accomplish the same goal in the long run.

One thing that I've done is put together Fighting Style feats that are similar to multiclass feats and give access to special powers that can be selected in place of class powers. That might be a better way of handling it in this instance as well; make up a flavorful school of TWF and multiclass into whatever you want then take the Fighting Style to round out your concept.
#10
zagora_01
Aug 06, 2008 10:39:11 I didn't bypass the orignal feat, you still have to take two weapon fighting for the two weapon powers. in the future I'm willing to bet you'll see more fighting styles like a two-weapon fighter fighter. This system was meant to allow you to pick your powers based on the weapons you use. Not unlike what you mentioned you did (where can I see that). I was toying with an idea of granting an at-will power at paragon level with another feat. That allso allows you to get another at-will without having to paragon mutli-class.
#11
batshido
Aug 06, 2008 10:56:11
I didn't bypass the orignal feat, you still have to take two weapon fighting for the two weapon powers. in the future I'm willing to bet you'll see more fighting styles like a two-weapon fighter fighter. This system was meant to allow you to pick your powers based on the weapons you use.

It still costs you a feat, but what I'm saying is that system is already in place to do this; you don't really need to go to the effort of adding other options and potentially unbalancing your game.

If your goal is to let people effectively multi for weapon use, then just increase the number of classes you can multiclass into. That lets the people who are only going Ranger for the TWF still take those Rogue/Cleric/Fighter/Whatever powers they wanted as well.

Not unlike what you mentioned you did (where can I see that). I was toying with an idea of granting an at-will power at paragon level with another feat. That allso allows you to get another at-will without having to paragon mutli-class.

I haven't finished the system yet, so it's not "up" anywhere. Once it's finished I'll probably post it here as a PDF and link it in my sig.

I like the idea of more feats that improve multiclassing benefits, by giving things like At Wills and other class abilities. I haven't toyed around with that very much, but it's something that would be cool to see.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zagora_01 Aug 04, 2008 12:15:25	This is a thought to generalizing powers based on weapons used and possibly roles. It seems that the role is mostly based on the weapons used (at least when it comes to martial powers). What if you could use some of the ranger two weapon fighting powers as a fighter using a two weapon fighting style. As the fighter you take the feat two-weapon fighting giving you access to those powers. Now, I know a lot folks are going to balk at this, but consider that some classless systems have already been put out and wizards will probably put some out later anyway. My goal is to add options to the existing class without having to recreate the game.
#2 Shiftkitty Aug 04, 2008 14:55:20	I have an albino drow fighter who uses a two weapon style combined with some awesome acrobatics (and no, he's not a Drizzt clone) who simply wouldn't work with the current RAW. He had too many tweaks that are currently not covered, so I grandfathered his kung-fu in. I picked from the powers that fit him regardless of class and rebuilt him that way. I agree with you that there should be some kind of powers that are cross class, but I don't know how I'd work them in. Would they be in addition to the current power allotment, or would this be in lieu of it? Would they have attacks, or would they simply be enhancements to the original class powers? I know you can multi-class to get certain features of other classes, but something about it doesn't quite fit. Can't put my finger on it quite yet.
#3 factol_rhys_dup Aug 04, 2008 16:15:34	How did you manage the two-weapon fighter? Even with multiclass feats, you can't get anything better than double attacks on a per-encounter basis. The Two-Weapon Fighting feat seems a bit sad as far as fighting styles go, simply giving you +1 to attacks. It doesn't seem to feel like fighting with two weapons. All that might be okay, however, if it weren't for the real downside: money. Do you fight with a level-appropriate longsword and a rusty old kitchen knife in your off-hand? Or, do you spend extra money to have two level-appropriate weapons and get no benefit from the off-hand weapon? I guess you could be a Fighter and just fight with two weapons for the +1 damage. You could have an off-hand magic weapon a few levels behind your main one (so that it's easily affordable) and only call upon its powers when you use your multiclassed Ranger attacks.
#4 Shiftkitty Aug 05, 2008 13:59:30	He's a high level character being translated over from 3 to 4, so I just assigned what he needed and ad-libbed anything that wasn't covered by the RAW. The 4e Two Weapon rules would have clipped him severely, so I just gave him two attacks at his old attack bonuses. His swords are both magical and both acquired through adventuring. One is a flametongue longsword, the other is a basic +2 weapon. The bonuses from the swords and other bits of his character background (ambidextrous, trained by a two-weapon specialist, etc.), all contributed to his suffering no penalties. I'm trying my hand at a pure 4e Two Weapon fighter, but I haven't finished him yet.
#5 zagora_01 Aug 05, 2008 21:21:56	That is kind of what i'm talking about. I looked at a lot of the powers. Rangers have two weapon fighting that allows you to hit two foes. fighters don't have an at-will equivalent but they both do have a sure strike like power that is almost exactly the same. Also, the fighters passing attack and the rangers two-fanged strike argueably do the same function. The part that separates rangers from the other classes with two weapon fighting is that they can use two one handed weapons. I'm still going through the powers and seeing what is class specific and what is not.
#6 zagora_01 Aug 05, 2008 22:21:49	Here's a quick rough draft I didn't want to deviate too far from the orignal rules, so I decided to take the avenue of multi-class feats. Using the existing ones as a model I created feats that allow you to take powers from other class but didn't specify what class or that you are delving into that class. The power selection is more limited however. There will be some wholes because i didn't review each power seperately. If there is a favorable response I will continue. This is just to test the waters. here we go New Multi-class feats Two-weapon fighting Novice Prerequisites: Two-weapon fighting feat, 4th level Benefit: You can swap one encounter attack power you know for one encounter attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of two melee weapons. You may only use the melee weapon aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class. Two-weapon fighting Acolyte Prerequisites: Two-weapon fighting feat, 8th level Benefit: You can swap one Utility power you know for one utility power outside of your class that specifies the use of two melee weapons. You may only use the melee weapon aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class. Two-weapon fighting Adept Prerequisites: Two-weapon fighting feat, 10th level Benefit: You can swap one daily attack power you know for one daily attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of two melee weapons. You may only use the melee weapon aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class. Sword and Board Novice Prerequisites: Proficiency with large shields (please keep in mind most non fighters or paladins will have to spend a feat be able to use this feat), 4th level Benefit: You can swap one encounter attack power you know for one encounter attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of a shield. You may only use shield aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class. Sword and Board Acolyte Prerequisites: Proficiency with large shields (please keep in mind most non fighters or paladins will have to spend a feat be able to use this feat), 8th level Benefit: You can swap one utility power you know for one utility power outside of your class that specifies the use of a shield. You may only use shield aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class. Sword and Board Adept Prerequisites: Proficiency with large shields (please keep in mind most non fighters or paladins will have to spend a feat be able to use this feat), 10th level Benefit: You can swap one daily attack power you know for one daily attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of a shield. You may only use shield aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class. Heavy Blade Novice Prerequisites: Weapon focus (heavy blades), 4th level Benefit: You can swap one encounter attack power you know for one encounter attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of heavy blades. You may only use the heavy blade aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class. Heavy Blade Acolyte Prerequisites: Weapon focus (heavy blades), 8th level Benefit: You can swap one utility power you know for one utility power outside of your class that specifies the use of a heavy blades. You may only use the heavy blade aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class. Heavy Blade Adept Prerequisites: Weapon focus (heavy blades), 10th level Benefit: You can swap one Daily attack power you know for one Daily attack power outside of your class that specifies the use of heavy blades. You may only use the heavy blade aspect of that power. The power source of the power now conforms to the power source of your class.
#7 factol_rhys_dup Aug 05, 2008 23:42:29	Actually, maybe the best way to go would be to come up with some scattered TWF powers for fighters and rogues. I see those two as the only two classes that really support TWF. Rangers can still be the masters of the style, but the others could benefit from a handful of TWF attacks that still support their combat role.
#8 lolwatzors Aug 06, 2008 8:05:19	~personally think sly flourish was designed two-weapon fighting in mind~ Also, the +1 to damage, and +1 to AC and Ref, mean you have comparable defense to a sword and shield fighter, with slightly high damage out put.
#9 batshido Aug 06, 2008 9:46:55	Here's a quick rough draft I can see where you're going with this, but there's a problem. There's nothing here that can't already be done. The TWF stuff is a Ranger multiclass, the Sword and Board is a Fighter or Paladin multiclass and the Heavy Blade stuff is also a Fighter multiclass. All you're doing is bypassing the initial feat. Now, you might see that as a good thing, I don't know. It's not really adding anything to the game, though. It's just rewriting stuff that's already there, and doing it in a way that circumvents systems that are already in place. That might be what you're going for, but it's going to go head to head against what's in the books and win because of it's easier access. An easier fix would be to raise the number of multiclass feats you can take to 2 or even 3. That would require basically no work and accomplish the same goal in the long run. One thing that I've done is put together Fighting Style feats that are similar to multiclass feats and give access to special powers that can be selected in place of class powers. That might be a better way of handling it in this instance as well; make up a flavorful school of TWF and multiclass into whatever you want then take the Fighting Style to round out your concept.
#10 zagora_01 Aug 06, 2008 10:39:11	I didn't bypass the orignal feat, you still have to take two weapon fighting for the two weapon powers. in the future I'm willing to bet you'll see more fighting styles like a two-weapon fighter fighter. This system was meant to allow you to pick your powers based on the weapons you use. Not unlike what you mentioned you did (where can I see that). I was toying with an idea of granting an at-will power at paragon level with another feat. That allso allows you to get another at-will without having to paragon mutli-class.
#11 batshido Aug 06, 2008 10:56:11	I didn't bypass the orignal feat, you still have to take two weapon fighting for the two weapon powers. in the future I'm willing to bet you'll see more fighting styles like a two-weapon fighter fighter. This system was meant to allow you to pick your powers based on the weapons you use. It still costs you a feat, but what I'm saying is that system is already in place to do this; you don't really need to go to the effort of adding other options and potentially unbalancing your game. If your goal is to let people effectively multi for weapon use, then just increase the number of classes you can multiclass into. That lets the people who are only going Ranger for the TWF still take those Rogue/Cleric/Fighter/Whatever powers they wanted as well. Not unlike what you mentioned you did (where can I see that). I was toying with an idea of granting an at-will power at paragon level with another feat. That allso allows you to get another at-will without having to paragon mutli-class. I haven't finished the system yet, so it's not "up" anywhere. Once it's finished I'll probably post it here as a PDF and link it in my sig. I like the idea of more feats that improve multiclassing benefits, by giving things like At Wills and other class abilities. I haven't toyed around with that very much, but it's something that would be cool to see.