generic weapon sets - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 stargazer_dragon May 07, 2010 22:41:48	The idea is to make a chart for creating weapons via a point buy set up. So instead of picking a weapon u would visualize it then creat it to match what u pictured. The goal is to make the list balenced. Weapon types -(base weapon types will start as the least useful possible like heavy 2 handed sword) Base weapons are, +0 1 D Simple weapons, with 4 points to spend to alter it. Axe: Bow: Load free, Uses 1 hand damage, range determained by damage Crossbow: Load minor, Uses 1 hand damage, range determained by damage Flail: Hammer: Heavy Blade: Light Blade: Requires off-hand property Mace: Pick: Sling: uses Bow rules Spear: +5 range Staff: Can't be thrown cost Weapon Properties Each property cost 1 point. 0 Double weapon (reach not allowed) 1 High Crit: 1 Off-Hand: (no more then 3D unless it's a double weapon) 1 Light thrown: 1D max (1 handed only) starting range is 5/10 1 Heavy thrown: 3D max (1 handed only) starting range is 5/10 2 Reach: (+1 costs if not a Polearm) 0 Polearm: (must purchase reach) Can't be used with light blade or light thrown. 1 Small: 0 Versatile: (must be one handed) 1 Brutal 1: D10 or more damage is Brutal 2 1 Defensive: 1 increase Proficiency: (max of +3) 1 increase damage: (costs 1 point per die catagory) 1 Range +5 (see heavy and light thrown properties) -1 2 Handed (bows/crossbows get this but no point gain and still use 1 handed damage) -1 Martial: (does not stack with superior) -3 Superior: (bows/crossbows only gain +2 for superior) One-Handed 1d4➛ 1d6 ➛ 1d8 ➛ 1d10 ➛ 1d12 ➛ 2d6 ➛ 2d8 ➛ 2d10 Two-Handed 1d8➛ 2d4 ➛ 1d10 ➛ 1d12 ➛ 2d6 ➛ 2d8 ➛ 2d10 Bow/crossbow range(bows/crossbows ALWAYS use 1 handed damage but are 2 handed weapons) d4 -- 5/10 (slings and crossbows are 1 handed) d6 -- 10/20 (slings and crossbows are 1 handed) d8 -- 15/30 d10 -- 20/40 d12 -- 25/50 Bows max damage at D12 however it is +5 range per damage die increase range for thrown weapons, besides spear; seam to start at range 5 (spears start at range 10) Though the trident is balenced with free range but only has range 3/6 perhaps a typo? ok let me use the spear since it is most common thrown weapon Javelin +2 (2 points), D6 (1 point), 10/20 , heavy thrown (1 point) 4 out of 4 (simple weapon, start+4) Trident +2(2 points), D8(2 points),3/6,heavy thrown(1 points),versatile. 5 out of 5 (4 start +1 military) Tratnyer +2(2 Points), D8 (2 points) 10/20, heavy thrown (1 Point), Versatile 5 out of 7 (4 start +3 superior) only difrence betwean the trident and the tratnyer is the range, further the trident range is the only spear heavy thrown with range of anything other then 10/20 that I see. Perhaps a typo? If so why is the tratnyer range so much better, seams like the tratnyer is underbalenced and range is type baced what do you guys think?
#2 mplindustries May 08, 2010 0:16:36	Type/category should also cost something. Light Blades, for example, all deal less damage than equivalent heavy blades. I also think this is a bad idea, because there are already so many weapon options, the only possible explanation for such a system is to try and cheat the corner cases. Like creating a +3 proficiency heavy blade/polearm. Or make an actually good Mace to utilize with the recent, powerful Mace riders on fighter powers. Or a light blade with a high damage die for Rogues to use. This just comes across as problematic all around. If you really want a certain looking weapon, just refluff an existing one. Before AV came out, I had a player who used a Greatsword's stats, but described it as a huge Hammer. It was still a Heavy Blade for feats and enchantments, it still had +3 proficiency and all that jazz, and yet, as far as the characters knew, it was a really big hammer (and when AV came out, he didn't even switch to a Mordenkrad because he liked the aesthetic of the hammer, but preferred the higher proficiency bonus, even if it meant less damage). What specific weapon were you looking to make with this (because I can just about guarantee you had at least one thing in mind)?
#3 stargazer_dragon May 08, 2010 1:25:46	actualy I didn't, I rarely if ever play a char myself I almost always DM. Thought of the idea while I was debating with someone about the katana, with everyone saying why not use this or refluff that. I just figured it would be kinda nice instead of deciding which weapon fits a image someone has for there chars weapon they could just imagine the weapon and designe it by using a chart. The idea was that I could sit down with a player and create a custome weapon in moments that was balenced if only I could break the curent weapons down into a kinda point buy system maybe even go as far as making a difrent cost for each type of weapon. As for swords after some thought I figured I would use heavy two handed sword with a base damage and then allow it to be purchased into other things. Figured each weapon type would start with particulat stats and then increasing damage and altering the weapon to make it better or weaker would cost or add points. The object is to make the weapon end up balenced for almost all ways you can build it. Though after the thought of rouge the light blade and the heavy blade might need there own chart but then I think someone said there is actualy a feat that allows heavy blades to be used with rouge powers anyhow which would make for less risk of a high powered light sword Also if light blade costs points since game wise it seams more usefull then it would be harder to make a realy good light blade well realy good meaning better then the current ones Again the goal is to make a chart that allows compleate customization without loss of game balence. Should make for a interesting prodject specialy if I get feedback on balenceing once I start getting the framework figured out better. Right now it is a ruff idea m working on fleshing the framework out. Goto make a list off all weapon properties and all weapon types currently in exsistence once the list is made will start to arange them in order of best combat effective properties to least and then try to come up with costs using current weapons to see if I can find a over all basic balence of curent weapons As long as most weapons are balenced to each other then this should be possible
#4 Bandikoot May 08, 2010 1:26:04	4E uses a fairly simple system for designing weapon damage and it works as follows: Step 1: set the base for a given category simple one-hand melee, superior ranged, etc. Step 2: For any property that improves the weapon reduce the damage die by "1" as per the chart in the PHB. I put 1 in quotes because you are obviously not always dealing with just 1 die. For example (and I don't have any books with me so I hope I'm remembering correctly) For martial melee, one handed base stats are +2, 1d10 ex 1) Increase proficiency by 1, decrease damage die by 1 to give +3, 1d8 ex 2) Give brutal 1 property yields +2, 1d8, brutal. and so on. IIRC, versitile is actually a free property because in order to gain that +1 to damage (essentially increasing the damage die by one) you give up your free hand and can't use it for shields, torches, off-hand weapons, etc.
#5 stargazer_dragon May 08, 2010 3:19:46	Will have to research further, m comparing stats now and how they break down. need to figure out what base damage for each type is. if it does add up the way u say then all the properties would be basicaly balenced? So high crit and brutal1 would both be balenced as would off hand and high crit? defiantly goto put thought into it
#6 Bandikoot May 08, 2010 18:02:15	I finally got a chance to sit down and look at a PHB and I decided I'd expand upon what I said earlier since there are some exceptions to what I said earlier. Simple Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d8 Simple Melee Two-handed: Base +2/1d10 Military Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d10 Military Melee Two-handed: Base +2/2d6 Superior Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d12 Superior Melee Two-handed: Base +2/2d8 Properties: Free: Versatile Decrease damage die by 1: Brutal, Heavy Thrown, High crit, Light thrown, Off-hand, Proficiency Decrease damage die by 2: Reach Now a couple of the simple ones I listed in my earlier post; converting a battleaxe/flail/warhammer first into a longsword and then second into a khopesh. Of course, you can add more than one property to the base stats. For example, if we added heavy thrown and off-hand to the Military Melee base stats, each property would decrease the damage die by one, from +2/1d10 to +2/1d6. That just created a handaxe/throwing hammer. For another example, you could increase the proficiency bonus (-1 die), add the off hand property (-1 die) and get a weapon which reads "+3/1d6-off hand." Congratulations, you've just made a short sword. Or for a superior two-handed weapon, start with +2/2d8, add brutal and high crit (-2 die total) and you have an execution axe. Of course there are exceptions. The Rapier actually needs a property, probably off hand, to fit into the superior weapon chart. That would make it a superior short sword. The Tratnyr is superior to the trident because of a range increase, implying that you could make a superior handaxe/throwing hammer by increaseing their range increments. Anyway, have fun making weapons.
#7 stargazer_dragon May 09, 2010 0:07:40	The properties that I found that I copuldn't realy decide if they were free or not was offhand and thrown Trident +2 1d8 versatile heavythrown hand axe/throwing hammer +2 1d6 Heavy thrown /offhand Would sugest that thrown and off hand both costs 1 (or reduced damage by 1) however if offhand costs 1 then light blade must not or else the short sword wouldn't fit Shortsword +3 1D6 offhand lightblade So maybe light blade does not cost, if this is the case then a balence would be to cap the damage of a light blade perhaps? The rapier is actualy the only light blade I see that does not have the offhand weapon propertie and since it is just underpowered perhaps say that light blade is free but requires the offhand propertey? That should couse it to be balenced yes no? Ok think I have it now Rapier would be a offhand allowed weapon but since all other light blades are and balence wise ti is a touch under par then it should be perfect balence. Now the real test see if the system can be abused to make overpowered weapons and if so add restrictions to prevent
#8 Bandikoot May 09, 2010 0:45:27	Sorry, I ran my examples paragraph together a bit, which might have caused some confusion. To answer your questions though... No it does not appear that "lightblade" costs anything. I would say it is more that they took the combinations in which the base damage die had been reduced by giving a weapon the off-hand property and called those light blades. It was then further reduced by making the light blade more accurate i.e. increase proficiency to +3 and drop the damage again. (dagger, shortsword) Yes, I think the Rapier should have the offhand property to remain balanced. The difference between each of the one-handed categories is that the damage die goes up by 1 each time. If you increase the short sword's damage die by one, you should get a rapier... But now you should be asking, are the properties themselves balanced? I find no compelling reason to actually choose a longsword or khopesh over the base weapon.
#9 stargazer_dragon May 09, 2010 13:17:40	I would say the properties are balenced, I mean offhanded/lightblade is realy only good for duel weilders/rouges for others it's not worth it. But besides that the others seam prety balenced, And the longsword is the base weapon for all means. Versatile being free it has no properties that make it any difrent then the base weapon. I also need to figure out what determains cost, in this I figured a base cost and then if it is weaker reduce cost and weight, perhaps make a 1/2 cost property that reduces cost and weight by 1/2, weight being determained by weapon type if I even concider weight few people realy keap track of weight I have noticed. Ranged weapons I have down except that the longbow and greatbow are stronger then any other ranged weapon
#10 kazerima May 09, 2010 21:04:23	I finally got a chance to sit down and look at a PHB and I decided I'd expand upon what I said earlier since there are some exceptions to what I said earlier. Simple Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d8 Simple Melee Two-handed: Base +2/1d10 Military Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d10 Military Melee Two-handed: Base +2/2d6 Superior Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d12 Superior Melee Two-handed: Base +2/2d8 Properties: Free: Versatile Decrease damage die by 1: Brutal, Heavy Thrown, High crit, Light thrown, Off-hand, Proficiency Decrease damage die by 2: Reach Now a couple of the simple ones I listed in my earlier post; converting a battleaxe/flail/warhammer first into a longsword and then second into a khopesh. Of course, you can add more than one property to the base stats. For example, if we added heavy thrown and off-hand to the Military Melee base stats, each property would decrease the damage die by one, from +2/1d10 to +2/1d6. That just created a handaxe/throwing hammer. For another example, you could increase the proficiency bonus (-1 die), add the off hand property (-1 die) and get a weapon which reads "+3/1d6-off hand." Congratulations, you've just made a short sword. Or for a superior two-handed weapon, start with +2/2d8, add brutal and high crit (-2 die total) and you have an execution axe. Of course there are exceptions. The Rapier actually needs a property, probably off hand, to fit into the superior weapon chart. That would make it a superior short sword. The Tratnyr is superior to the trident because of a range increase, implying that you could make a superior handaxe/throwing hammer by increaseing their range increments. Anyway, have fun making weapons. I actually built a similar table myself, but ran into problems from some of the more advanced weaponry in the Adventurer's Vault. Particularly the Fullblade seemed to throw things off by having not only the d12 damage, but also +3 prof and high crit, giving it a slightly higher edge by that chart(effecively gaining a weapon trait for free).
#11 Bandikoot May 09, 2010 21:25:31	I'm not sure what you mean with the fullblade. It starts off at +2/2d8 as a superior 2-handed weapon. Increasing the proficiency bonus to +3 drop its damage down to 2d6, and then it is given the high crit property which drops it damage down another "die" to 1d12. The trick with the 2-hand superior weapons is that they did not actually use the "base weapon" in the PHB or the AV. Everything has at least 1 property to start with.
#12 stargazer_dragon May 10, 2010 1:57:11	how do you think they calculated Bows and crossbows and junk
#13 Bandikoot May 10, 2010 11:52:49	Two-handed ranged weapons appear to use the one-handed melee weapon progression. To make a two-handed weapon one-handed, decrease the damage die by one. Properties should work the same (i.e., even though most of the ranged weapons really have no properties to speak of, you could make them brutal, high crit, etc using the above system.) The various load properties seem to have no connection to the damage die. Rather they seem to be there just to penalize crossbow users. One-Handed Simple Ranged: +2/1d6 Two-Handed Simple Ranged: +2/1d8 One-Handed Military Ranged: +2/1d8* Two-Handed Military Ranged: +2/1d10 One-Handed Superior Ranged: +2/1d10 Two-Handed Superior Ranged: +2/1d12 *I didn't see any, so I'm just filling in the pattern. Shuriken seem to have too low of damage for any class except rogues. They of course get the damage die increase as a class feature. +3/1d6/light thrown. IMO though, a class feature shouldn't make a weapon functional, but enhance it. I may have to house rule them.
#14 stargazer_dragon May 10, 2010 14:25:48	what about range what controls range of the weapon? perhaps it is tied to the damage? Corssbows are balenced if you use two weapon damage dice and range+5 costing 1 point or reduceing the damage by 1 but longbows and greatbows the range cost makes them stronger then would normaly be possible.
#15 Bandikoot May 10, 2010 14:47:47	Oh, right, range. I tend to forget about that just because of the size of our battlemat. Seriously range 50 is over 4 ft in each direction around a greatbow PC. Anyway, the progression for shot (not thrown) projectiles looks fairly straightforward. The maximum range goes up by 10 each category. One-Handed Simple Ranged: 10/20 Two-Handed Simple Ranged: 15/30 One-Handed Military Ranged: 15/30* Two-Handed Military Ranged: 20/40 One-Handed Superior Ranged: 20/40* Two-Handed Superior Ranged: 25/50 * I see no examples of these, so I am just guessing. The shortbow in 4E is a stupid weapon as it exists only to allow small creatures to use bows. Weapon damage and small creatures is a whole separate can of worms that is really a side issue here. The repeating crossbow's loss of range appears to be a poor attempt on their part to balance out the load free property that they gave the weapon.
#16 stargazer_dragon May 11, 2010 1:55:23	will have to do the math with load and range being free but the weapon being 1 handed damage and see what comes out, thanks for the help think am close to a final product
#17 Foxface May 11, 2010 2:05:56	A system/formula has been found and it appears to be accurate as possible. Certain weapons from the PHB are off (greatsword, I'm looking at you...), but those are easily spotted. The fact that the fullblade seems so good has more to do with how crappy the greatsword is. Giving it either high crit or d12 damage makes it a balanced weapon. Details are in this thread:community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Hope this helps!
#18 stargazer_dragon May 11, 2010 5:34:26	was definatly a interesting read, very similar idea but they didn't have any better input on range will do a lot of math later and should get ranged weapons balenced then just need to add a few note for weapon types and should be balenced system.
#19 Foxface May 11, 2010 13:56:24	Maybe you didn't see it, but inside the spoiler blocks on the first post are more spoiler blocks. Range Weapons are discussed last. Here's the relevant info: Ranged Weapons The ranged weapons are divided into two groups using different “embryos” and points adjustment tables: Projectile Weapons and Light Thrown Weapons. Projectile Weapons include weapons belonging to the ranged weapon groups with the Load propery, ie bows, crossbows and slings. Light Thrown Weapons include ranged weapon groups that may have the Light Thrown property: light blades or flails. To create a Projectile Weapon (bow, crossbow or sling), you start with 2 points and the following weapon "embryo": Military two-handed ranged, +2 proficiency, 1d6 damage, range 10/20, load minor Apply changes and adjust available points according to the following: Projectile Weapon Points Adjustment Table: Superior: +1 Simple: -1 +3 proficiency: -1 Bow, Crossbow or Sling group: 0 One-handed (Crossbow or Sling only): -1 Load Free with Bow or Sling: 0 Load Free with Crossbow: -5/10 range Small (max 1d8 damage die): -1 One step damage (and range) increase (below): -1 One step damage (and range) decrease (below): +1 Damage (range) progression: d4(10/20) - d6(10/20) - d8(15/30) - d10(20/40) - d12(25/50) Your weapon is balanced when it has 0 points. To create a Light Thrown Weapon (light blade or flail), you start with 2 points and the following weapon "embryo": Superior one-handed ranged, +2 proficiency, 1d4 damage, range 4/8 Apply changes and adjust available points according to the following: Light Thrown Weapon Points Adjustment Table: +3 proficiency: -1 Light Blade group: 0 Flail group: -1 1d6 damage: -1 Range 6/12: -1 Range 10/20: -2 Your weapon is balanced when it has 0 points.
#20 stargazer_dragon May 11, 2010 14:22:49	though I will still double check balence and what not this would definatly sugest that balence is obtained by range being tagged together with damage
#21 stargazer_dragon May 12, 2010 0:39:13	ok here is the ranged weapons if I did them as 1 handed and load being attached to the weapon. Long bow +2 (2 points), 1D10 (3 Point), Total 5 out of 5 allowed (4 start +1 for military ) Shortbow +2 (2 points), 1D8 (2points) , Small (1 point) Total 5 out of 5 allowed (4 start +1 for military ) Crossbow +2 (2 points), 1D8 (2points) Total 4 out of 4 allowed (4 start, ) Hand Crossbow/sling +2 (2 points), 1D6 (1 point), Total 3 out of 4 allowed (4 start ) Superior crossbow +3(3 points), 1D10(3 points), Total 6 out of 7 allowed (4 start +3 for Superior ) Great bow +2(2 points), 1D12(4 points), Total 6 out of 7 allowed (4 start +3 for Superior ) Repeating crossbow +2(2 points), 1D8 (2 points) Total 4 out of 4 allowed (4 start ) conclusion range is determained by damage & load action is determained by type, this will allow for slightly better weapons then what is in the PHB, as such I am also reduceing the point gained for superior quality by 1 point for ranged weapons, this will bring the weapons in line, the hand crossbow I am adding small quality to since it balences the weapon and makes sence same as the sling. Thanks for the help I think we have a prety balenced and compleate system, though testing for breakability needs done now to fine tune the rules
#22 stargazer_dragon May 12, 2010 2:17:47	Think I have it mostly smoothed out, please see how it can be broken and please also give me any feedback on ways to improve balence
#23 stargazer_dragon May 27, 2010 18:26:54	just a small bump to see if I can get help testing the system for breakability (basicaly seeing what other restrictions and junk need to be done to keap people from making broken weapons with this system
#24 erik_the_guy May 28, 2010 9:53:36	Actually, I think its a great idea to let the players make basically any weapon. Let me see if I have the idea right: weapons should be available if they are balanced, rather than if they are in the PHB. For example, if the player wanted a mace with about the same stats as a longsword, and made it a military weapon, that would be balanced, so you let them. I would allow this in my campaign if a player asked, though I would probably do it on a per case basis rather than use a system. Don't get me wrong, I think a system is great, although I'm not sure that the weapons in 4e are tightly balanced enough that they could be a result of an equation, but I'm going to check your system out to see if I'm wrong.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

stargazer_dragon

May 07, 2010 22:41:48

The idea is to make a chart for creating weapons via a point buy set up. So instead of picking a weapon u would visualize it then creat it to match what u pictured. The goal is to make the list balenced.

Weapon types -(base weapon types will start as the least useful possible like heavy 2 handed sword)
Base weapons are, +0 1 D Simple weapons, with 4 points to spend to alter it.

Axe:
Bow: Load free, Uses 1 hand damage, range determained by damage
Crossbow: Load minor, Uses 1 hand damage, range determained by damage
Flail:
Hammer:
Heavy Blade:
Light Blade: Requires off-hand property
Mace:
Pick:
Sling: uses Bow rules
Spear: +5 range
Staff: Can't be thrown

cost   Weapon Properties Each property cost 1 point.

  0       Double weapon (reach not allowed)
  1       High Crit:
  1       Off-Hand: (no more then 3D unless it's a double weapon)
1       Light thrown: 1D max (1 handed only) starting range is 5/10
  1       Heavy thrown: 3D max (1 handed only) starting range is 5/10
2       Reach: (+1 costs if not a Polearm)
  0       Polearm: (must purchase reach) Can't be used with light blade or light thrown.
1       Small:
  0       Versatile: (must be one handed)
1       Brutal 1: D10 or more damage is Brutal 2
  1       Defensive:
1       increase Proficiency: (max of +3)
  1       increase damage: (costs 1 point per die catagory)
1       Range +5 (see heavy and light thrown properties)
-1       2 Handed (bows/crossbows get this but no point gain and still use 1 handed damage)
-1       Martial: (does not stack with superior)
-3       Superior: (bows/crossbows only gain +2 for superior)

One-Handed
1d4➛ 1d6 ➛ 1d8 ➛ 1d10 ➛ 1d12 ➛ 2d6 ➛ 2d8 ➛ 2d10

Two-Handed
1d8➛ 2d4 ➛ 1d10 ➛ 1d12 ➛ 2d6 ➛ 2d8 ➛ 2d10

Bow/crossbow range(bows/crossbows ALWAYS use 1 handed damage but are 2 handed weapons)
d4   -- 5/10 (slings and crossbows are 1 handed)
d6   -- 10/20 (slings and crossbows are 1 handed)
d8   -- 15/30
d10 -- 20/40
d12 -- 25/50
Bows max damage at D12 however it is +5 range per damage die increase

range for thrown weapons, besides spear; seam to start at range 5 (spears start at range 10)

Though the trident is balenced with free range but only has range 3/6 perhaps a typo?

ok let me use the spear since it is most common thrown weapon

Javelin +2 (2 points), D6 (1 point), 10/20 , heavy thrown (1 point)
4 out of 4 (simple weapon, start+4)

Trident +2(2 points), D8(2 points),3/6,heavy thrown(1 points),versatile.
5 out of 5 (4 start +1 military)

Tratnyer +2(2 Points), D8 (2 points) 10/20, heavy thrown (1 Point), Versatile
5 out of 7 (4 start +3 superior)

only difrence betwean the trident and the tratnyer is the range, further the trident range is the only spear heavy thrown with range of anything other then 10/20 that I see. Perhaps a typo? If so why is the tratnyer range so much better, seams like the tratnyer is underbalenced and range is type baced what do you guys think?

mplindustries

May 08, 2010 0:16:36

Type/category should also cost something. Light Blades, for example, all deal less damage than equivalent heavy blades.

I also think this is a bad idea, because there are already so many weapon options, the only possible explanation for such a system is to try and cheat the corner cases. Like creating a +3 proficiency heavy blade/polearm. Or make an actually good Mace to utilize with the recent, powerful Mace riders on fighter powers. Or a light blade with a high damage die for Rogues to use.

This just comes across as problematic all around. If you really want a certain looking weapon, just refluff an existing one. Before AV came out, I had a player who used a Greatsword's stats, but described it as a huge Hammer. It was still a Heavy Blade for feats and enchantments, it still had +3 proficiency and all that jazz, and yet, as far as the characters knew, it was a really big hammer (and when AV came out, he didn't even switch to a Mordenkrad because he liked the aesthetic of the hammer, but preferred the higher proficiency bonus, even if it meant less damage).

What specific weapon were you looking to make with this (because I can just about guarantee you had at least one thing in mind)?

stargazer_dragon

May 08, 2010 1:25:46

actualy I didn't, I rarely if ever play a char myself I almost always DM. Thought of the idea while I was debating with someone about the katana, with everyone saying why not use this or refluff that. I just figured it would be kinda nice instead of deciding which weapon fits a image someone has for there chars weapon they could just imagine the weapon and designe it by using a chart.

The idea was that I could sit down with a player and create a custome weapon in moments that was balenced if only I could break the curent weapons down into a kinda point buy system

maybe even go as far as making a difrent cost for each type of weapon.

As for swords after some thought I figured I would use heavy two handed sword with a base damage and then allow it to be purchased into other things. Figured each weapon type would start with particulat stats and then increasing damage and altering the weapon to make it better or weaker would cost or add points. The object is to make the weapon end up balenced for almost all ways you can build it.

Though after the thought of rouge the light blade and the heavy blade might need there own chart but then I think someone said there is actualy a feat that allows heavy blades to be used with rouge powers anyhow which would make for less risk of a high powered light sword

Also if light blade costs points since game wise it seams more usefull then it would be harder to make a realy good light blade well realy good meaning better then the current ones

Again the goal is to make a chart that allows compleate customization without loss of game balence.

Should make for a interesting prodject specialy if I get feedback on balenceing once I start getting the framework figured out better. Right now it is a ruff idea m working on fleshing the framework out.

Goto make a list off all weapon properties and all weapon types currently in exsistence once the list is made will start to arange them in order of best combat effective properties to least and then try to come up with costs using current weapons to see if I can find a over all basic balence of curent weapons

As long as most weapons are balenced to each other then this should be possible

Bandikoot

May 08, 2010 1:26:04

4E uses a fairly simple system for designing weapon damage and it works as follows:

Step 1: set the base for a given category simple one-hand melee, superior ranged, etc.

Step 2: For any property that improves the weapon reduce the damage die by "1" as per the chart in the PHB. I put 1 in quotes because you are obviously not always dealing with just 1 die.

For example (and I don't have any books with me so I hope I'm remembering correctly)

For martial melee, one handed base stats are +2, 1d10
ex 1) Increase proficiency by 1, decrease damage die by 1 to give +3, 1d8
ex 2) Give brutal 1 property yields +2, 1d8, brutal.
and so on.

IIRC, versitile is actually a free property because in order to gain that +1 to damage (essentially increasing the damage die by one) you give up your free hand and can't use it for shields, torches, off-hand weapons, etc.

stargazer_dragon

May 08, 2010 3:19:46

Will have to research further, m comparing stats now and how they break down.

need to figure out what base damage for each type is.

if it does add up the way u say then all the properties would be basicaly balenced?

So high crit and brutal1 would both be balenced

as would off hand and high crit?

defiantly goto put thought into it

Bandikoot

May 08, 2010 18:02:15

I finally got a chance to sit down and look at a PHB and I decided I'd expand upon what I said earlier since there are some exceptions to what I said earlier.

Simple Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d8
Simple Melee Two-handed: Base +2/1d10

Military Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d10
Military Melee Two-handed: Base +2/2d6

Superior Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d12
Superior Melee Two-handed: Base +2/2d8

Properties:
Free: Versatile
Decrease damage die by 1: Brutal, Heavy Thrown, High crit, Light thrown, Off-hand, Proficiency
Decrease damage die by 2: Reach

Now a couple of the simple ones I listed in my earlier post; converting a battleaxe/flail/warhammer first into a longsword and then second into a khopesh. Of course, you can add more than one property to the base stats. For example, if we added heavy thrown and off-hand to the Military Melee base stats, each property would decrease the damage die by one, from +2/1d10 to +2/1d6. That just created a handaxe/throwing hammer. For another example, you could increase the proficiency bonus (-1 die), add the off hand property (-1 die) and get a weapon which reads "+3/1d6-off hand." Congratulations, you've just made a short sword. Or for a superior two-handed weapon, start with +2/2d8, add brutal and high crit (-2 die total) and you have an execution axe.

Of course there are exceptions. The Rapier actually needs a property, probably off hand, to fit into the superior weapon chart. That would make it a superior short sword. The Tratnyr is superior to the trident because of a range increase, implying that you could make a superior handaxe/throwing hammer by increaseing their range increments.

Anyway, have fun making weapons.

stargazer_dragon

May 09, 2010 0:07:40

The properties that I found that I copuldn't realy decide if they were free or not was offhand and thrown

Trident +2 1d8 versatile heavythrown
hand axe/throwing hammer +2 1d6 Heavy thrown /offhand

Would sugest that thrown and off hand both costs 1 (or reduced damage by 1)

however if offhand costs 1 then light blade must not or else the short sword wouldn't fit
Shortsword +3 1D6 offhand lightblade

So maybe light blade does not cost, if this is the case then a balence would be to cap the damage of a light blade perhaps?

The rapier is actualy the only light blade I see that does not have the offhand weapon propertie and since it is just underpowered perhaps say that light blade is free but requires the offhand propertey?

That should couse it to be balenced yes no?

Ok think I have it now
Rapier would be a offhand allowed weapon but since all other light blades are and balence wise ti is a touch under par then it should be perfect balence.

Now the real test see if the system can be abused to make overpowered weapons and if so add restrictions to prevent

Bandikoot

May 09, 2010 0:45:27

Sorry, I ran my examples paragraph together a bit, which might have caused some confusion. To answer your questions though...

No it does not appear that "lightblade" costs anything. I would say it is more that they took the combinations in which the base damage die had been reduced by giving a weapon the off-hand property and called those light blades. It was then further reduced by making the light blade more accurate i.e. increase proficiency to +3 and drop the damage again. (dagger, shortsword)

Yes, I think the Rapier should have the offhand property to remain balanced. The difference between each of the one-handed categories is that the damage die goes up by 1 each time. If you increase the short sword's damage die by one, you should get a rapier...

But now you should be asking, are the properties themselves balanced? I find no compelling reason to actually choose a longsword or khopesh over the base weapon.

stargazer_dragon

May 09, 2010 13:17:40

I would say the properties are balenced, I mean offhanded/lightblade is realy only good for duel weilders/rouges for others it's not worth it. But besides that the others seam prety balenced, And the longsword is the base weapon for all means. Versatile being free it has no properties that make it any difrent then the base weapon.

I also need to figure out what determains cost, in this I figured a base cost and then if it is weaker reduce cost and weight, perhaps make a 1/2 cost property that reduces cost and weight by 1/2, weight being determained by weapon type if I even concider weight few people realy keap track of weight I have noticed.

Ranged weapons I have down except that the longbow and greatbow are stronger then any other ranged weapon

#10

kazerima

May 09, 2010 21:04:23

I finally got a chance to sit down and look at a PHB and I decided I'd expand upon what I said earlier since there are some exceptions to what I said earlier.

Simple Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d8
Simple Melee Two-handed: Base +2/1d10

Military Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d10
Military Melee Two-handed: Base +2/2d6

Superior Melee One-handed: Base +2/1d12
Superior Melee Two-handed: Base +2/2d8

Properties:
Free: Versatile
Decrease damage die by 1: Brutal, Heavy Thrown, High crit, Light thrown, Off-hand, Proficiency
Decrease damage die by 2: Reach

Now a couple of the simple ones I listed in my earlier post; converting a battleaxe/flail/warhammer first into a longsword and then second into a khopesh. Of course, you can add more than one property to the base stats. For example, if we added heavy thrown and off-hand to the Military Melee base stats, each property would decrease the damage die by one, from +2/1d10 to +2/1d6. That just created a handaxe/throwing hammer. For another example, you could increase the proficiency bonus (-1 die), add the off hand property (-1 die) and get a weapon which reads "+3/1d6-off hand." Congratulations, you've just made a short sword. Or for a superior two-handed weapon, start with +2/2d8, add brutal and high crit (-2 die total) and you have an execution axe.

Of course there are exceptions. The Rapier actually needs a property, probably off hand, to fit into the superior weapon chart. That would make it a superior short sword. The Tratnyr is superior to the trident because of a range increase, implying that you could make a superior handaxe/throwing hammer by increaseing their range increments.

Anyway, have fun making weapons.

I actually built a similar table myself, but ran into problems from some of the more advanced weaponry in the Adventurer's Vault. Particularly the Fullblade seemed to throw things off by having not only the d12 damage, but also +3 prof and high crit, giving it a slightly higher edge by that chart(effecively gaining a weapon trait for free).

#11

Bandikoot

May 09, 2010 21:25:31

I'm not sure what you mean with the fullblade. It starts off at +2/2d8 as a superior 2-handed weapon. Increasing the proficiency bonus to +3 drop its damage down to 2d6, and then it is given the high crit property which drops it damage down another "die" to 1d12. The trick with the 2-hand superior weapons is that they did not actually use the "base weapon" in the PHB or the AV. Everything has at least 1 property to start with.

#12

stargazer_dragon

May 10, 2010 1:57:11

how do you think they calculated Bows and crossbows and junk

#13

Bandikoot

May 10, 2010 11:52:49

Two-handed ranged weapons appear to use the one-handed melee weapon progression. To make a two-handed weapon one-handed, decrease the damage die by one. Properties should work the same (i.e., even though most of the ranged weapons really have no properties to speak of, you could make them brutal, high crit, etc using the above system.) The various load properties seem to have no connection to the damage die. Rather they seem to be there just to penalize crossbow users.

One-Handed Simple Ranged: +2/1d6
Two-Handed Simple Ranged: +2/1d8

One-Handed Military Ranged: +2/1d8*
Two-Handed Military Ranged: +2/1d10

One-Handed Superior Ranged: +2/1d10
Two-Handed Superior Ranged: +2/1d12

*I didn't see any, so I'm just filling in the pattern.

Shuriken seem to have too low of damage for any class except rogues. They of course get the damage die increase as a class feature. +3/1d6/light thrown. IMO though, a class feature shouldn't make a weapon functional, but enhance it. I may have to house rule them.

#14

stargazer_dragon

May 10, 2010 14:25:48

what about range what controls range of the weapon? perhaps it is tied to the damage?

Corssbows are balenced if you use two weapon damage dice and range+5 costing 1 point or reduceing the damage by 1 but longbows and greatbows the range cost makes them stronger then would normaly be possible.

#15

Bandikoot

May 10, 2010 14:47:47

Oh, right, range. I tend to forget about that just because of the size of our battlemat. Seriously range 50 is over 4 ft in each direction around a greatbow PC. Anyway, the progression for shot (not thrown) projectiles looks fairly straightforward. The maximum range goes up by 10 each category.

One-Handed Simple Ranged: 10/20
Two-Handed Simple Ranged: 15/30

One-Handed Military Ranged: 15/30*
Two-Handed Military Ranged: 20/40

One-Handed Superior Ranged: 20/40*
Two-Handed Superior Ranged: 25/50

* I see no examples of these, so I am just guessing.

The shortbow in 4E is a stupid weapon as it exists only to allow small creatures to use bows. Weapon damage and small creatures is a whole separate can of worms that is really a side issue here. The repeating crossbow's loss of range appears to be a poor attempt on their part to balance out the load free property that they gave the weapon.

#16

stargazer_dragon

May 11, 2010 1:55:23

will have to do the math with load and range being free but the weapon being 1 handed damage and see what comes out, thanks for the help think am close to a final product

#17

Foxface

May 11, 2010 2:05:56

A system/formula has been found and it appears to be accurate as possible. Certain weapons from the PHB are off (greatsword, I'm looking at you...), but those are easily spotted. The fact that the fullblade seems so good has more to do with how crappy the greatsword is. Giving it either high crit or d12 damage makes it a balanced weapon.

Details are in this thread:community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Hope this helps!

#18

stargazer_dragon

May 11, 2010 5:34:26

was definatly a interesting read, very similar idea but they didn't have any better input on range will do a lot of math later and should get ranged weapons balenced then just need to add a few note for weapon types and should be balenced system.

#19

Foxface

May 11, 2010 13:56:24

Maybe you didn't see it, but inside the spoiler blocks on the first post are more spoiler blocks. Range Weapons are discussed last. Here's the relevant info:

Ranged Weapons
The ranged weapons are divided into two groups using different “embryos” and points adjustment tables: Projectile Weapons and Light Thrown Weapons. Projectile Weapons include weapons belonging to the ranged weapon groups with the Load propery, ie bows, crossbows and slings. Light Thrown Weapons include ranged weapon groups that may have the Light Thrown property: light blades or flails.

To create a Projectile Weapon (bow, crossbow or sling), you start with 2 points and the following weapon "embryo":

Military two-handed ranged, +2 proficiency, 1d6 damage, range 10/20, load minor

Apply changes and adjust available points according to the following:
Projectile Weapon Points Adjustment Table:

Superior: +1
Simple: -1

+3 proficiency: -1

Bow, Crossbow or Sling group: 0
One-handed (Crossbow or Sling only): -1
Load Free with Bow or Sling: 0
Load Free with Crossbow: -5/10 range

Small (max 1d8 damage die): -1

One step damage (and range) increase (below): -1
One step damage (and range) decrease (below): +1

Damage (range) progression: d4(10/20) - d6(10/20) - d8(15/30) - d10(20/40) - d12(25/50)

Your weapon is balanced when it has 0 points.

To create a Light Thrown Weapon (light blade or flail), you start with 2 points and the following weapon "embryo":

Superior one-handed ranged, +2 proficiency, 1d4 damage, range 4/8

Apply changes and adjust available points according to the following:
Light Thrown Weapon Points Adjustment Table:

+3 proficiency: -1

Light Blade group: 0
Flail group: -1

1d6 damage: -1

Range 6/12: -1
Range 10/20: -2

Your weapon is balanced when it has 0 points.

#20

stargazer_dragon

May 11, 2010 14:22:49

though I will still double check balence and what not this would definatly sugest that balence is obtained by range being tagged together with damage

#21

stargazer_dragon

May 12, 2010 0:39:13

ok here is the ranged weapons if I did them as 1 handed and load being attached to the weapon.

Long bow +2 (2 points), 1D10 (3 Point),
Total 5 out of 5 allowed (4 start +1 for military )

Shortbow +2 (2 points), 1D8 (2points) , Small (1 point)
Total 5 out of 5 allowed (4 start +1 for military )

Crossbow +2 (2 points), 1D8 (2points)
Total 4 out of 4 allowed (4 start, )

Hand Crossbow/sling +2 (2 points), 1D6 (1 point),
Total 3 out of 4 allowed (4 start )

Superior crossbow +3(3 points), 1D10(3 points),
Total 6 out of 7 allowed (4 start +3 for Superior )

Great bow +2(2 points), 1D12(4 points),
Total 6 out of 7 allowed (4 start +3 for Superior )

Repeating crossbow +2(2 points), 1D8 (2 points)
Total 4 out of 4 allowed (4 start )

**conclusion** range is determained by damage & load action is determained by type, this will allow for slightly better weapons then what is in the PHB, as such I am also reduceing the point gained for superior quality by 1 point for ranged weapons, this will bring the weapons in line, the hand crossbow I am adding small quality to since it balences the weapon and makes sence same as the sling.

Thanks for the help I think we have a prety balenced and compleate system, though testing for breakability needs done now to fine tune the rules

#22

stargazer_dragon

May 12, 2010 2:17:47

Think I have it mostly smoothed out, please see how it can be broken and please also give me any feedback on ways to improve balence

#23

stargazer_dragon

May 27, 2010 18:26:54

just a small bump to see if I can get help testing the system for breakability (basicaly seeing what other restrictions and junk need to be done to keap people from making broken weapons with this system

#24

erik_the_guy

May 28, 2010 9:53:36

Actually, I think its a great idea to let the players make basically any weapon. Let me see if I have the idea right: weapons should be available if they are balanced, rather than if they are in the PHB. For example, if the player wanted a mace with about the same stats as a longsword, and made it a military weapon, that would be balanced, so you let them.
I would allow this in my campaign if a player asked, though I would probably do it on a per case basis rather than use a system.
Don't get me wrong, I think a system is great, although I'm not sure that the weapons in 4e are tightly balanced enough that they could be a result of an equation, but I'm going to check your system out to see if I'm wrong.