In both creation and play, these characters reminded me strongly of 3.5 edition gestalt characters, except better balanced to each other. I experimented by applying the Wizard template to a base Wizard, and I felt about even in power with the Paladin/Cleric and the Ranger/Rogue.
Some rulings we made:
- The PC's get one action point per encounter, always.
- If you are forced to take the same skill by both your base class and template, you get a free skill focus in that feat. This came up for both the Paladin/Cleric and the Wizard/Wizard.
- The Paladin/Cleric had two uses of Channel Divinity per encounter, once from the Paladin's list, and once from the Cleric's. If he had taken a Channel Divinity feat, he'd have been able to use that power with either or both of his CD uses.
- The Wizard/Wizard got two implement mastery's, and two sets of free rituals.
- The Wizard/Wizard did not apply spellbook to the template powers, so he had one daily that couldn't be altered, and a set of two dailies from which he prepared one each day. Same with utilities.
Some questions to explore:
- How do Level 1 Elite PC's compare to normal L1 PC's? With an extra at-will, encounter, and daily, and all the features from two classes, as well as an action point every encounter, I suspect they're significantly more powerful than two L1 PC's.
- How do Level 10 Elite PC's compare to normal L10 PC's? At this point their gain from the template is proportionally less, since they still only have the one at-will, one encounter, one daily, and one utility from the secondary class. However, the HP difference is greater, which might compensate.
- How does the power level compare at paragon tier (gain another encounter and utility) and epic tier (gain another daily and utility)?
Has anyone else experimented with this kind of play? I'd love to have more input on the idea, especially if people have actual experience rather than just theorizing. The PC's have more power than normal, but it seemed pretty simple to challenge those PC's with encounters designed for twice their number, and the combats played quite well. It also did an excellent job of creating a 3rd edition or even 2nd edition feel to the multiclassed characters while keeping the single classed character on roughly the same power level. I think it might be interesting to run a campaign with all PC's playing this kind of character.
t~
t~
I have i t where they must take a feat called Gestalt, a feat that they can only take at 1st level, after that they receive some benefits from both classes,
A class feature from both classes, and one other class feature of their choice from either class, plus whenever the gain a power,they choose from either class.
-Proficiencies: they can use weapons, armors, shields, and implements from both classes.
-Defense bonuses: for each Defense(Fort, Ref, Will) they take the better bonus.
-Hit Points: 12+con at 1st Lvl, +5 every LvlUp
-Healing surges: Take whichever is better
-Skills: your trained in two skills either class skill list, plus your automatically trained in any free trained skill your classes get.
-Class Features:Cleric-Channel Divinity
Fighter- Combat Challenge
Paladin- Channel Divinity
Ranger- Hunter's Quarry
Rogue- Rogue Tactics
Warlock- Eldritch Pact
Warlord- Commanding Presence
Wizard- Spellbook
Swordmage- Swordmage Aegis
Plus one other class feature that can be chosen from either class.
-Powers: when you gain or replace a power, you may choose from either class.
-Multi-class: Gestalt characters are ineligible for multi class feats.
but with the release of 4th, I was happy to see that gestating was kinda replaced with the multiclass feats. they were balanced but powerful enough to give you a advantages.
But if you allow rowdy55ok or tiornys (sorry to put you in the spot light) versions. there is no reason to have multiclasss feats, you get the best of both worlds, no negatives and dont have to waist feats to get powers from your other class.
I think Gestalting should stay in 3.X and never show its face around here again.... OR ELSE:headexplo
To tell the truth I never liked gestating, if done right you were gods, if done wrong you were junk.
but with the release of 4th, I was happy to see that gestating was kinda replaced with the multiclass feats. they were balanced but powerful enough to give you a advantages.
But if you allow rowdy55ok or tiornys (sorry to put you in the spot light) versions. there is no reason to have multiclasss feats, you get the best of both worlds, no negatives and dont have to waist feats to get powers from your other class.
I think Gestalting should stay in 3.X and never show its face around here again.... OR ELSE:headexplo
Hmmm... Gestalt character with Multi-class feat sounds yummy.
Wizard/Wizard?? Lol Is that like a Man's man?
More or less :-) It was an experiment to see if a hyper-focused character created using these rules felt roughly comparable to a normal one, and the answer was yes. The character was very much a wizard, had a bit less versatility than the other characters, but was enough better at its role to compensate. I'm not sure it would work for every class, but it certainly worked here.
I also allow Gestalt characters,but i don't allow any template in the DMG, they're simply too powerful for the players to make use of.
As I implied in my initial post, this is a high-powered variant, and is certainly not intended for use alongside normal characters. Either all characters in a campaign should use this, or none of them should, unless you're deliberately trying to make some of the characters a lot more powerful than the others.
But if you allow rowdy55ok or tiornys (sorry to put you in the spot light) versions. there is no reason to have multiclasss feats, you get the best of both worlds, no negatives and dont have to waist feats to get powers from your other class.
Actually, I think you definitely want to continue to use the multiclass feats, as they allow you to dabble into a third class (or second if you wizard/wizard or similar ;) ). What I think you want to avoid is letting someone take the multiclass feat for their templated class, which is easy to justify by saying that you're a member of both your base class and your templated class already.
t~
To tell the truth I never liked gestating, if done right you were gods, if done wrong you were junk.
Um... well... it's true that gestating can be sort of boring, I guess... all that sitting around, waiting for things to develop... And, as you say, you don't know what you're going to get until it's foisted upon you. ;)
As a player/DM with perpetually undersized groups, I was always a fan of 3.5 Gestalt. It requires players who each have a firm grasp on what is and isn't allowed, and a group that's willing to take no for an answer when a DM overrules an unforeseen, overpowered combination.
I saw a reference to this thread in another and sought it out. This is an interesting idea, toirnys. We might try using this. As I said, our groups are always undersized.
Thanks.
Rules I used:
-Choose a main-class and a sub-class
-Always take the better of the two class's:
Armor proficiencies, Weapon proficiencies, Defense bonuses, Hi Points, Healing Surges, etc.
-Overlapping weapon/armor proficiencies don't add any extra bonus
-If trained skills overlap, get Skill focus free
-You can use a single weapon/implement for all powers as appropriate.
-Utility powers are gained at the same rate but can be chosen from both classes
-No one takes multi-class feats
--
You gain powers from your sub-class as follows:
At-Will powers at levels 1,11,21
Encounter power at levels 1,6,12
Daily powers at levels 1,11
These powers can be replaced by higher level ones up to the character's highest level power of the same type of their main class
--
I also allowed the creation of a unique encounter power made by merging two At-Will powers, one from each class.
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Okay, now the results.
We ended up with the following:
Fighter/Bard ~(Defender/Leader)
Barbarian/Warlord ~(Striker/Leader)
Wizard/Ranger ~(Controller/Striker)
Simple fact is that, yes, I find them just as powerful as when we had a group of 6 PCs. I can either use tougher monsters or double their numbers and the Gestalt PCs will usually rip through them.
They have all the healing power they could ever need. Good upfront melee combatants with heavy support from the rear.
I prefer to send out double the expected amount of monsters for dramatic effect, with the occasional elite monsters or boss battle.
It's worked like a charm though I probably wouldn't want to do this again too soon. If we're gonna be running a game for 3 PCs, they'll have to find other ways to survive and cover up the group's weak spot.