Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Fedosu Nov 20, 2010 13:07:49	Alright, the other thread got my brain going, and I made this race. problem is I don't know if the Slipping Away feature is too powerful. If it is, are there any suggestions on how to fix it? version 1 Ghost Racial Traits Average Height: see past life Average Weight: 0 lbs Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 One other Size: see past life Speed: 6 Vision: Low-light Languages: see past life Skill Bonuses: see past life Past Life: Select a race other than ghost. You can takes feats, a paragon path, and an epic destiny that have the selected race as a prerequisite, as long as you meet all other prerequisites. You gain  the height, size, languages, and skill bonuses of the selected race. Past Life Boon: You gain a Past Life feat that you meet the prerequisites for. Slipping Away: You gain phasing while you are bloodied. In addition, you gain insubstantial while you are below 0 hit points. Undead: You are considered to be an undead creature for effect that relate to that keyword. Feats Past Life — Dragonborn Prerequisites: Ghost, dragonborn Benefit: You gain the dragon breath dragonborn racial power, and it deals force damage instead of the other available options. Past Life — Drow Prerequisites: Ghost, drow Benefit: You gain the Lolthtouched drow racial feature and its associated powers. Past Life — Dwarf Prerequisites: Ghost, dwarf Benefit: You gain the dwarven resilience dwarf racial power. Past Life — Eladrin Prerequisites: Ghost, eladrin Benefit: You gain the fey step eladrin racial power. Past Life — Elf Prerequisites: Ghost, elf Benefit: You gain the elven accuracy elf racial power. Past Life — Half-Elf Prerequisites: Ghost, half-elf Benefit: You gain the Dilettante half-elf racial feature. Past Life — Halfling Prerequisites: Ghost, halfling Benefit: You gain the second chance halfling racial power. Past Life — Half-Orc Prerequisites: Ghost, half-orc Benefit: You gain the furious assault orc racial power. Past Life — Human Prerequisites: Ghost, human Benefit: You gain either one extra at-will power from your class or the heroic effort human racial power. Past Life — Tiefling Prerequisites: Ghost, tiefling Benefit: You gain the infernal wrath tiefling racial power, and it deals force damage instead of fire damage. ETC.
#2 MechaPilot Nov 20, 2010 14:31:47	Does "Ghost" need to be a race of it's own?  Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a ghost character.  I think it's pretty cool actually.  However, I think it might be more appropriate to create a feat (like the dhampyr bloodline feat from Dragon) that can be taken by a member of any race. My stab at it would be this: Restless Spirit [Ghost Bloodline]   Prerequisite: Living humanoid race   Benefit: You gain the (?) power.  Additionally, you may change one of your racial skill bonuses to either the Stealth or Intimidate skill.   Special: You are considered a ghost for the purpose of effects that relate to ghosts. I'm not sure what power would go best with this, but there are some options. Ghost Walk (as described by Neutronium_Dragon). Encounter, Move Action. Effect: Move your speed.  You gain Insubstantial during this movement. Discorporate (this might be too powerful for an encounter power and might need to be a daily instead) Encounter, Free Action. Trigger: An attack succeeds in defeating either your AC or Reflex defense. Effect: The attack is negated.
#3 Fedosu Nov 20, 2010 14:56:46	The idea though, is that being a ghost is somehow fundamental to the character. I don't like the idea of having to spend a feat to be what you are. If everybody just used the human race and spent a feat to become an elf or a dwarf that would seem a little bit weird. So... yes, I sort of think that I should be a race on its own. FROM THE OTHER THREAD Phasing all the time sounds really really good. (or just once bloodied, forever.) Much better than "I can pop through a single door once every 5 min or so". Is it better if they treat difficult terrain as normal? Or treat things they phase through as difficult terrain?
#4 Eisenritter Nov 20, 2010 15:03:22	Might I suggest an old 3e supplement entitled Ghostwalk?  As a PC race, ghosts should be treated no differently than other PC races... that includes weight.  No flying, phasing, or insubstantial by default, those would be covered by feats or paragon paths. ...Huh.  Seems like I just described the revenant, which pretty much does exactly what you're looking for.
#5 MechaPilot Nov 20, 2010 16:01:01	The idea though, is that being a ghost is somehow fundamental to the character. I don't like the idea of having to spend a feat to be what you are. If everybody just used the human race and spent a feat to become an elf or a dwarf that would seem a little bit weird. So... yes, I sort of think that I should be a race on its own. If you prefer to write it up as your own race, that's fine (I'll never pretend that my way is the right way).  I do have a question for you though: "Why is a ghostly member of a race not as well suited for the same classes and builds as a living member of that race?" Consider Eladrin Wizards.  Using your race (particularly the ability score), a ghostly eladrin would be a less effective wand wizard than a living eladrin would.  Likewise, the ghostly eladrin wizard would also be a better staff wizard than a living eladrin would. Consider an Elf Ranger.  Since a ghostly elf Ranger's racial ability modifiers are "+2 Con, +2 to one other" the ghostly elf becomes a less effective ranger than a living elf who gets "+2 Dex, +2 Int or Wis". Any race that favors a class that doesn't have Constitution as one of its key abilities will have their effectiveness at the class (or of its different builds) altered if the character is a ghostly member of that race.
#6 Fedosu Nov 20, 2010 16:06:15	I think there's an overemphasis put on ability scores in regards to effectiveness. Over the long term, while 2 higher dex as opposed to con might make a little difference, I honestly doubt most players would notice that if they were simply given pre-gen character. The idea of effectiveness linked to ability scores is more phychological that actual.
#7 Sabelkatten Nov 20, 2010 16:28:31	I think there's an overemphasis put on ability scores in regards to effectiveness. Over the long term, while 2 higher dex as opposed to con might make a little difference, I honestly doubt most players would notice that if they were simply given pre-gen character. The idea of effectiveness linked to ability scores is more phychological that actual. +2 to primary stat is a massive advantage - but a race that can chose to place a +2 to any one stat will always have that option. +2 to a secondary score is nice, but hardly vital. There are a few builds that will feel it, but f.ex. the ghost ranger will only suffer a marginal penalty to a few encounter/daily powers. I do think that "ghost" should be a modifier to the basic race rather than a new race with multiple modifiers, thought. To me the ghost of an elf is still basically "elf", at least if we're talking about a ghost that can run around hitting people with swords... ;)
#8 MechaPilot Nov 20, 2010 16:31:28	I think there's an overemphasis put on ability scores in regards to effectiveness. Over the long term, while 2 higher dex as opposed to con might make a little difference, I honestly doubt most players would notice that if they were simply given pre-gen character. The idea of effectiveness linked to ability scores is more phychological that actual. At higher levels, you may be right.  I will say that the difference is more noticeable at first level.  Consider a power that lets you push an enemy a number of squares equal to an ability score modifier.  The difference between having a +1 or a +2 modifier for that score is negligible on the math of the game itself, but that simple +1 difference results in halving/doubling (depending on the perspective from which you are looking at it) the distance you push an enemy. Now don't get me wrong, you can work around it.  You can use the point buy rules to create a custom array that underplays your Con score (with the knowledge it will go up by 2 from the racial bonus) so you can boost a score that you would have otherwise gotten a racial ability score modifier to. On a related but separate note . . . I would change the second ability score racial modifier from "+2 One other" to "Choose one from past life".  This creates a stronger tie to the character's past life, and it doesn't infringe on the ability score flexibility that humans get (remember that humans only get 1 bonus to any 1 ability score, and that flexibility is a big part of the flavor for humans).
#9 Fedosu Nov 20, 2010 19:03:46	I do think that "ghost" should be a modifier to the basic race rather than a new race with multiple modifiers, thought. To me the ghost of an elf is still basically "elf", at least if we're talking about a ghost that can run around hitting people with swords... ;) I guess we're looking at it from opposite directions. You're thinking of an elf that is a ghost, but I'm thinking of a ghost who used to be an elf. I think that the act of dying is significant enough that it fundamentally alters your identity, it doesn't overwrite the fact that you were once an elf, but your being a ghost is a more significant portion of your idendity now. The other issue is that by making it something that lays on top of another race it either has to cost something, and I've already explained why I don't like that option, or it has to replace existing racial features somehow and races are in no way uniform in how they're written, certainly not enough to say that the ghost template overwrites feature x but not y. This way there is a controlled way for the ghost to retain some of the identity of their original race. But, if you can suggest a good way to rig it up the other way, I'd be quite interested to read it. On a related but separate note . . . I would change the second ability score racial modifier from "+2 One other" to "Choose one from past life".  This creates a stronger tie to the character's past life, and it doesn't infringe on the ability score flexibility that humans get (remember that humans only get 1 bonus to any 1 ability score, and that flexibility is a big part of the flavor for humans). So would you be happier if I just ditched the Con and made the ability bonuses flat out from the past life race? EDIT: I've made some changes to the race in the first post.
#10 MechaPilot Nov 20, 2010 20:30:27	I guess we're looking at it from opposite directions. You're thinking of an elf that is a ghost, but I'm thinking of a ghost who used to be an elf. I think that the act of dying is significant enough that it fundamentally alters your identity, it doesn't overwrite the fact that you were once an elf, but your being a ghost is a more significant portion of your idendity now. While I would give ghosthood and race equal weight in a character's identity, your approach to the concept is certainly a valid and reasonable one. The other issue is that by making it something that lays on top of another race it either has to cost something, and I've already explained why I don't like that option, or it has to replace existing racial features somehow and races are in no way uniform in how they're written, certainly not enough to say that the ghost template overwrites feature x but not y. This way there is a controlled way for the ghost to retain some of the identity of their original race. But, if you can suggest a good way to rig it up the other way, I'd be quite interested to read it. Have you considered making Ghost a "theme" (like those presented in Dark Sun)?  Themes are layered on top of the existing character structure and they don't cost anything.  They give you one feature/power at no cost, and they allow you to select theme powers at later levels instead of class powers. So would you be happier if I just ditched the Con and made the ability bonuses flat out from the past life race? EDIT: I've made some changes to the race in the first post. While I think using the ability modifiers of the past race are the most appropriate, we are also approaching this from separate ends of the spectrum.  If you want the ghostly part of a character to have more impact than the race of its past life, then I think the race should have its own stats.  If you go this route, you need to decide what classes you want the race to favor because one of the race's ability score modifiers should be the primary key ability for those classes.
#11 libbalou Nov 21, 2010 7:03:47	Well, this discussion went further than I expected, but there were many good suggestions. I knew revenant might work, but I wanted something slightly different, especially since ghosts are incorporeal and revs aren't. Fedosu, I like your Ghost Race 2, which pretty much is a reflavor of the revenant. So, I offered that option to my player. Also, I've thought about offering a feat to the other PCs. If they are killed or otherwise die in the city of Hammerfast, (b/c ghosts are actually allowed to live as a full citizen there) they can resurrect their character using this feat (mostly like MechaPilots): Spirit [Ghost Bloodline] Prerequisite: Living humanoid race Benefit: You trade one racial power or feat, and gain the following powers instead. Special: You are considered a ghost for the purpose of effects that relate to ghosts. Ghost Walk. Encounter, Move Action. Effect: Move your speed. You gain Insubstantial during this movement. Discorporate Daily, Free Action. Trigger: An attack succeeds in defeating either your AC or Reflex defense. Effect: The attack is negated.