Giant (PC Race): PEACH - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Giant (PC Race): PEACH

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
sepsis
May 31, 2009 10:08:58 This is a "Giant" PC Race someone recently made. Please PEACH this so he can see where there might be problems:

*Giant*
Average Height: 8'0"-9'2"
Average Weight: 700-1000 lbs.

Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light vision

Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate

Large: Weapons and armor made for you are custom-made, costing 25% more than normal price. However, your damage die for improvised weapons increases to 1d6.

Crush Underfoot Giant Racial Power

Daily
Standard Action Meelee
Target: One small or smaller creature.
Attack: Strength Vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d10 damage (increase to 5d10 at 11th level, and 6d10 at 21st level)
Miss: Target is bloodied.

Thank you in advance.
Note: this Thread is cross posted on the "Races & Monsters" forum, but this seems more appropriate.
#2
dalorbloodmane
May 31, 2009 11:56:18 Does the race have a reach of 1 or 2?
#3
rikiji
May 31, 2009 12:05:26 The Large feature makes no sense. It's a race, presumably you get equipment from other members of the race. The cost modifier is marginally logical (but counter to the design principles of 4E) for mundane equipment, but magical equipment has a flat cost per level - regardless of size - so the distinction is basically pointless.

That said, having a 'large' race really doens't work well with many mechanics in the game. You innately have the same issues with weapon balance that medium creatures with the oversized weapon trait have. On the one hand you're too large to maneuver in many environments and on the other you have significant tactical advantages from being able to control a larger area in melee (even without reach, you can still control a 4x4 area as opposed to a 3x3 for medium creatues). None of these issues are addressed by the race writeup.

Increasing improvised damage is kind of useless - nobody uses improvised weapons on a regular basis regardless.

Racial powers should be encounter powers, not dailies. Regardless, this one is grotesquely unbalanced. The damage is way to high and the targeting restriction makes it really too limited to be interesting. Admittedly, the attack doesn't scale, so it won't hit anything past heroic tier, but it's still way much damage. Also a single-attribute based attack for a racial power is extremely limiting.

In summation, there are innate problems with having a large race that are not addressed in the race features. The racial power needs to be rewritten from the ground up and the other race features just don't work. Overall I'd say it isn't playable. Goliaths are an excellent example of a giant-class race that's done right - that might be a good baseline for starting ideas.
#4
sepsis
May 31, 2009 14:54:05 This is a "large" part of the problem. While it is agreed that the Racial Power needs work, the author and his support believe Large (both the size and trait are fine, and "DMs can handle it"). It is this point I can't get across nor does it seem they will read the Designer Blogs to see the reasoning behind many of the race design sandards. I am hoping folks here would present an impartial view and explain some of the issues that render it unbalanced.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
#5
rikiji
Jun 01, 2009 11:07:45
This is a "large" part of the problem. While it is agreed that the Racial Power needs work, the author and his support believe Large (both the size and trait are fine, and "DMs can handle it"). It is this point I can't get across nor does it seem they will read the Designer Blogs to see the reasoning behind many of the race design sandards. I am hoping folks here would present an impartial view and explain some of the issues that render it unbalanced.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I'd actually agree that large size is within the ability of a DM to handle, but the rules should make it easier - and the race simply doesn't address the problems that size creates.

The trait is basically garbage - it neither adds anything to the race nor provides any reasonable balancing factor. Technically, having increased size means the race can use larger improvised weapons, so that element does literally nothing. The cost modification simply does not work with how 4E handles treasure and itemization. Equipment is assumed a part of level progression. This is mechanically identical to an experience point penalty, which was thrown out after 2E.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sepsis May 31, 2009 10:08:58	This is a "Giant" PC Race someone recently made. Please PEACH this so he can see where there might be problems: Giant Average Height: 8'0"-9'2" Average Weight: 700-1000 lbs. Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution Size: Large Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-light vision Languages: Common, Giant Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate Large: Weapons and armor made for you are custom-made, costing 25% more than normal price. However, your damage die for improvised weapons increases to 1d6. Crush Underfoot Giant Racial Power Daily Standard Action Meelee Target: One small or smaller creature. Attack: Strength Vs. Reflex Hit: 3d10 damage (increase to 5d10 at 11th level, and 6d10 at 21st level) Miss: Target is bloodied. Thank you in advance. Note: this Thread is cross posted on the "Races & Monsters" forum, but this seems more appropriate.
#2 dalorbloodmane May 31, 2009 11:56:18	Does the race have a reach of 1 or 2?
#3 rikiji May 31, 2009 12:05:26	The Large feature makes no sense. It's a race, presumably you get equipment from other members of the race. The cost modifier is marginally logical (but counter to the design principles of 4E) for mundane equipment, but magical equipment has a flat cost per level - regardless of size - so the distinction is basically pointless. That said, having a 'large' race really doens't work well with many mechanics in the game. You innately have the same issues with weapon balance that medium creatures with the oversized weapon trait have. On the one hand you're too large to maneuver in many environments and on the other you have significant tactical advantages from being able to control a larger area in melee (even without reach, you can still control a 4x4 area as opposed to a 3x3 for medium creatues). None of these issues are addressed by the race writeup. Increasing improvised damage is kind of useless - nobody uses improvised weapons on a regular basis regardless. Racial powers should be encounter powers, not dailies. Regardless, this one is grotesquely unbalanced. The damage is way to high and the targeting restriction makes it really too limited to be interesting. Admittedly, the attack doesn't scale, so it won't hit anything past heroic tier, but it's still way much damage. Also a single-attribute based attack for a racial power is extremely limiting. In summation, there are innate problems with having a large race that are not addressed in the race features. The racial power needs to be rewritten from the ground up and the other race features just don't work. Overall I'd say it isn't playable. Goliaths are an excellent example of a giant-class race that's done right - that might be a good baseline for starting ideas.
#4 sepsis May 31, 2009 14:54:05	This is a "large" part of the problem. While it is agreed that the Racial Power needs work, the author and his support believe Large (both the size and trait are fine, and "DMs can handle it"). It is this point I can't get across nor does it seem they will read the Designer Blogs to see the reasoning behind many of the race design sandards. I am hoping folks here would present an impartial view and explain some of the issues that render it unbalanced. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
#5 rikiji Jun 01, 2009 11:07:45	This is a "large" part of the problem. While it is agreed that the Racial Power needs work, the author and his support believe Large (both the size and trait are fine, and "DMs can handle it"). It is this point I can't get across nor does it seem they will read the Designer Blogs to see the reasoning behind many of the race design sandards. I am hoping folks here would present an impartial view and explain some of the issues that render it unbalanced. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'd actually agree that large size is within the ability of a DM to handle, but the rules should make it easier - and the race simply doesn't address the problems that size creates. The trait is basically garbage - it neither adds anything to the race nor provides any reasonable balancing factor. Technically, having increased size means the race can use larger improvised weapons, so that element does literally nothing. The cost modification simply does not work with how 4E handles treasure and itemization. Equipment is assumed a part of level progression. This is mechanically identical to an experience point penalty, which was thrown out after 2E.