Would it be unbalanced to give players all at-will abilities for their class that they meet the level and pre-requisites for?
I thought it may just add a bit of variety when encounter and daily powers are all used up and they are not restricted to the same at-will abilities over and over again.
As at-will abilities are balanced to be used, I do not see how having the option to use any of those abilities changes anything.
To extend this idea, how do you think this would also work with encounter and daily powers - obviously you would only be able to use these one per encounter and one per day but the idea would be that you would have a whole lot of different abilities to choose from when using your daily power?
If you're looking for high-power-low-threat or if your players are less concerned with group dynamics than they are how awesome their character is then it should work out fine. If that's not what you want then you're signing up for some frustration/disappointment.
They would still only be able to use one encounter power per encounter but would just be able to choose from all the different encounter powers for their class that they meet the level and pre-requisite for.
The ability for any situation point is very valid, what about for only at-will abilities?
Obviously would need to come up with a work around for humans.
I am not talking about extra encounter and daily powers just being able to choose from a much larger range.
They would still only be able to use one encounter power per encounter but would just be able to choose from all the different encounter powers for their class that they meet the level and pre-requisite for.
The ability for any situation point is very valid, what about for only at-will abilities?
Obviously would need to come up with a work around for humans.
You do realize you can use more than one encounter power or daily power per encounter? Also, remember that wizards have a class feature that lets them memorize different powers for the day, which would become useless; so they will need an added bonus to replace that.
You do realize you can use more than one encounter power or daily power per encounter? Also, remember that wizards have a class feature that lets them memorize different powers for the day, which would become useless; so they will need an added bonus to replace that.
They mean per-slot. So your level 3 Encounter power could be chosen from all the level 3 Encounter powers on-the-fly.
So my Bard, if I didn't find a good chance to use Blunder, I could just use Firemetal Shot or Solid Sound depending on which an opportunity came up for first.
I just realized another potential pitfall here: time consumption. When your players can choose from such a large pool on the fly it's going to lead to slow downs as someone flips through the book looking for the right power. Unless your players are very familiar with everything their class can do, there's going to be a lot of reading before deciding.
The at-will thing alone probably not so bad, since that's going to max out somewhere around 8, and when all is said and done a lot of specs only have use for 3-5 of their at-wills anyway. It must be said, though, that this does most heavily favor Arcane and Martial classes, with the PHB II classes in close second. Basically Paladins and Clerics get boned unless they're going for a Balanced Build. I would say that Warlocks probably make off with the bank and then some with this deal.
Long answer : Nooooooooooooooooooooo.
On the ability to pick any encounter or daily power they want will end up being a time drain in a system where many people complain combat takes to long as it is. As above it will create more Super Heroic like adventure.
-Nerp
If you do it make sure to give humans an extra boost as there extra at-will will be useless. Getting extra daily and encounter powers will make characters way more powerful, and I advise against it.
I agree with this assessment.
I've thought about doing the same thing myself, actually. The only drawback is that each PC of the same class would have the same At-Wills, so I've thought about simply giving each PC a larger selection of At-Wills; say, each character gets 3 or 4 At-Wills instead of 2. That way there is more differentiation between characters, but they aren't each so limited in their At-Will choices.
The issue for me isn't so much that the PCs will become overpowered, although that's certainly an issue too. It's that having to choose 2 of the 4 at-will powers helps to define your character. The whole point of why I think 4E rocks is that you can put together 2 or 3 or more different archetypes out of each class, all of which have their own subtle differences. Just allowing every fighter to automatically be able to use Cleave whenever they felt like it seems like you're heading back to... a home-brewed 1E game, really.
Sure, things get more and more different as you continue to make choices at each level, but I like that dynamic that even at first level you can have two paladins that play completely different from each other.
Sure, things get more and more different as you continue to make choices at each level, but I like that dynamic that even at first level you can have two paladins that play completely different from each other.
Two Paladins that play completely different isn't even hard, since Paladins have two primary stats. What I find impressive is that I can build two One-Handed WT Fighters with Heavy Shields and Hammers, and have them play completely different.
t~
for at-will powers, sometimes i would like to have access to more than two at-wills, too. for example my bs rogue rolled his stats and has a good charisma score, although its just a tertiary stat. so having sly flourish to deliver ranged attacks from time to time would definitely be a plus.
also i think, that a limitation of at-wills was intended to prevent multiple members of the same class from acting the same. so if every member of your party is playing a different class, i think its ok to allow access to more than 2 at-will powers.
i would suggest, you allow it - through the cost of a feat. that would be fair to humans and give your players the otion to pick up additional at-wills, if they like.
im also hoping there will be an official feat introduced, that will let the players pick up additional at-wills in the future.
At-Will powers are a bit better in that respect. What I'd propose is that you simply give everybody the human ability to gain +1 At-Will power of their choice. You gain a bit more variety and it doesn't break the game. Then you give humans something extra to balance it. Perhaps another feat? Or a minor stat boost? Or you could make everybody else spend a feat to use it but allow human players to gain it for free?
What I'd propose is that you simply give everybody the human ability to gain +1 At-Will power of their choice.
Including humans. Give humans two extra instead of one extra. Or...
Let humans choose to either add one more at will from their class *or* make their existing at will bonus come from any other class with the same role. This lets the human choose between diversity or versatility.
Including humans. Give humans two extra instead of one extra. Or...
Let humans choose to either add one more at will from their class *or* make their existing at will bonus come from any other class with the same role. This lets the human choose between diversity or versatility.
Yeah sounds like the most solid approach I've seen to keep it interesting and balanced though of course this is similiar to the half-elf ability though it becomes an encounter power in that case.
What we have:
Wands can replicate any Arcane At-Will as an Encounter Power (well, selected from classes that use wands).
Then there is the Armor of Expoits for Martial Characters.
What you can do:
(Class Name)'s Weapon: Encounter Power: One At-Will power from your class/power source. Once chosen you cannot change it.
There will probably be balance issues, but it provides a good basis without breaking the basics of the game.
PtM
If it's not broken, don't fix it.
PtM
Some of us think that a character having more than 2 At-Wills as opposed to just 2 At-Wills makes the game more interesting to play, and don't want to be shoehorned into playing a Human to fulfill such a desire.
Therefore, implementing a change of this sort is fixing something that is "broken".
===
Nah, don't like that.
The issue for me isn't so much that the PCs will become overpowered, although that's certainly an issue too. It's that having to choose 2 of the 4 at-will powers helps to define your character. The whole point of why I think 4E rocks is that you can put together 2 or 3 or more different archetypes out of each class, all of which have their own subtle differences.
Then you've got people like me ;) who don't see the powers as a way to define their PCs. One power is pretty much as good as any other for me (assuming its not 'broken' of course-- gameplay will tell).
No matter what I pick, my PC is gonna be able to do something fantastic. The choice isn't entirely random of course but close enough-- just what catches my eye and what will benefit my build (such as tactical effects for my taclord PC).
4e has challenged me to customize my PCs not so much through power or feat selection (i.e. game mechanics) but more through details like backround, roleplaying, and such. Maybe I'm odd, but I can't be the only one who takes this approach, can I ;)?
-Option One: 11th Level.
The rationale here is that at the start of paragon-tier you'd have your full compliment of encounter powers and an additional weaker attack is not going to affect the balance of the game terribly much.
-Option Two: 19 in one of your class' primary attributes.
The idea with this variant would be that only real prodigies or those with some experience under their best will be able to learn a third at-will attack.
-Option Three: choose an encounter power you know. You no longer have access to that encounter power and may select one of your class' level one at-will attack powers in it's place. The rationale here is that an additional at-will power choice is worth giving up your weakest encounter power (which will always be the encounter power a player would choose to give up).
Of the three options above I personally would think that Option One probably makes the most sense overall, but Option Three would be valid if you wanted the option available at lower levels where at-will power use is most prevailant. Two is probably my least favorite, but it makes a certain amount of sense that someone who's extremely talented would be able to learn an additional at-will power.
4e has challenged me to customize my PCs not so much through power or feat selection (i.e. game mechanics) but more through details like backround, roleplaying, and such. Maybe I'm odd, but I can't be the only one who takes this approach, can I ;)?
Fleshing out your character and having to make decisions as to whether he's a finesse fighter or a power one are not mutually exclusive. I will say that this is the first edition where playing a martial class other than Rogue interests me at all.
why screwing around with the human bonus or the class feats, like chris proposed? (please dont take offense)
or the balance with half elves or items or turning them into encounter powers or whatever, if a feat is so much more easy?
you would just have to get the wording right and allowing it only for your base class, so that a multiclassed character cant argue, for example he's concidered a fighter/ranger in regard to feats and PP and therefore can pick up dual strike or twin strike.
just make it an heroic tier feat. problem solved.
Then you've got people like me ;) who don't see the powers as a way to define their PCs. One power is pretty much as good as any other for me (assuming its not 'broken' of course-- gameplay will tell).
i disagree completely. at first level a warlord could potentially take a daily that gives everyone a bonus to attack a single target for the rest of combat or a bonus to their defense for the rest of combat.
these can each be great, but only under certain circumstances. one is for when fighting a solo, one is for when fighting a group. i understand the desire to have more than one power because of such situational deals, and here is my suggestion to anyone who wants characters with more options.
as players build and advance their character, use the standard cut and dry method of character building. but as in game rewards, give players access to an additional power to replace their standard selection, limiting it to only one extra power per level.
for example, as a warlod the player picks Bastion of Defense as his daily power. in game the party knows they aren't powerful enough to take on the evil lord of war, so they locate a hidden monastery in the mountains. after weeks of climbing and hiking, half frozen, they come to the monastery and implore the master of the temple to teach them how to defeat the evil lord. it takes a lot of training (a day, a week, or a month depending on your desires as a DM for a narrative), but eventually the PC learns how to lead his men against a single powerful foe, enabling him to use Lead the Attack instead of Bastion of Defense. the other players also gain a benefit from either the training or helping him. for example, the wizard of the party who spent the whole time studying his spell book, unlocks the secrets of Flaming Arrow, adding it to his list of spells (Flaming Sphere and Sleep). the cleric or warlock could gain divine insight from their patrons, the druid could meditate, etc. the point is atleast one character had to do something in game, but everyone gets a reward (otherwise you'd have to do a single story for each character's extra power, which would be tiresome)
the wizard still has an advantage in that he's got a bonus one compared to everyone else. now some might say that's not enough, and i say "meh". you want to make a wizard feel better, give him a spell book with tons of extra daily spells in it, that should keep him quite content.
you can also do this for encounters and utility's, but like i said, he should only get one extra 2nd level utility, one extra 3rd level encounter, one extra 5th level daily, etc. you can still make different feeling characters who do not have a slew of useless powers nor too many useful powers that take a long time to decide which to use.
i don't like it myself, but the best option to keep decision making time low is to have the characters prepare which powers they will have after each extended rest (like the wizard's spell book feature). it's not as fun as deciding on the fly, because you never really know what could come up, but the truth is when you have a lot of choices, it takes longer to sort through them. better everyone take five minutes at the same time during a narrative than each take an extra minute every round of combat.
You get points based on your straight INT bonus (an 18 INT would have +4)
You can buy extra powers based on that score at the following rates:
At-wills=1 point
Encounters=2 points
Dailies=3 points
So an INT 18 could get 4 more at-wills (if there are 4 more left to choose from), 2 at-wills and an encounter, 2 encounters, or 1 at-will and 1 daily.
The reverse would not be true. A penalty on your INT would not cost you any powers. I know this would heavily favor certain classes at the start, but nothing bans a fighter from tossing a point onto INT when he gets the chance just as nothing bans a wizard from boosting his DEX. I was thinking it would represent a PCs better grasp at understanding things or just knowing a few extra moves in their field of expertise.
I haven't implemented this, but I was kicking the idea around. Pitfalls?
i disagree completely. at first level a warlord could potentially take a daily that gives everyone a bonus to attack a single target for the rest of combat or a bonus to their defense for the rest of combat.
these can each be great, but only under certain circumstances. one is for when fighting a solo, one is for when fighting a group. i understand the desire to have more than one power because of such situational deals, and here is my suggestion to anyone who wants characters with more options.
as players build and advance their character, use the standard cut and dry method of character building. but as in game rewards, give players access to an additional power to replace their standard selection, limiting it to only one extra power per level.
for example, as a warlod the player picks Bastion of Defense as his daily power. in game the party knows they aren't powerful enough to take on the evil lord of war, so they locate a hidden monastery in the mountains. after weeks of climbing and hiking, half frozen, they come to the monastery and implore the master of the temple to teach them how to defeat the evil lord. it takes a lot of training (a day, a week, or a month depending on your desires as a DM for a narrative), but eventually the PC learns how to lead his men against a single powerful foe, enabling him to use Lead the Attack instead of Bastion of Defense. the other players also gain a benefit from either the training or helping him. for example, the wizard of the party who spent the whole time studying his spell book, unlocks the secrets of Flaming Arrow, adding it to his list of spells (Flaming Sphere and Sleep). the cleric or warlock could gain divine insight from their patrons, the druid could meditate, etc. the point is atleast one character had to do something in game, but everyone gets a reward (otherwise you'd have to do a single story for each character's extra power, which would be tiresome)
the wizard still has an advantage in that he's got a bonus one compared to everyone else. now some might say that's not enough, and i say "meh". you want to make a wizard feel better, give him a spell book with tons of extra daily spells in it, that should keep him quite content.
you can also do this for encounters and utility's, but like i said, he should only get one extra 2nd level utility, one extra 3rd level encounter, one extra 5th level daily, etc. you can still make different feeling characters who do not have a slew of useless powers nor too many useful powers that take a long time to decide which to use.
i don't like it myself, but the best option to keep decision making time low is to have the characters prepare which powers they will have after each extended rest (like the wizard's spell book feature). it's not as fun as deciding on the fly, because you never really know what could come up, but the truth is when you have a lot of choices, it takes longer to sort through them. better everyone take five minutes at the same time during a narrative than each take an extra minute every round of combat.
if im not wrong now, wizards can take a feat, that allows them to learn one additional daily power (3 of the same level overall) anyway. the rest can be done through retraining. if the party warlord is aware, that they are better off with a different daily power to fight the big boss of your current story arc, he can retrain at his next level up and if he wants to switch again, he can also do it.
as for encounter powers, there is a feat, that lets you pick an additional encounter power of your class, like a wizard cam memorize multiple daily spells in his spellbok. during each short rest, you can switch this encounter power with one of the same level, you already know. (i think its called reserve maneuver). so imo there are enough possibilitys to vary your encounter or daily powers.
edit.: yep. its called reserve maneuver and is a paragon feat, listed in the phb2
Reserve Maneuver
Prerequisite: 11th level
Benefit: Choose an encounter attack power from
your class. The power must be your level or lower
and one that you don’t already have. When you
regain the use of your powers at the end of any rest,
you can gain the use of the chosen power instead of
regaining the use of an encounter attack power of the
same level or higher.
Special: Each time you gain a level, you can
exchange the power you chose for this feat for
another encounter attack power from your class. The
power must be your level or lower and one that you
don’t already have.
just an idea. make it not depending on INT, but on the primary stat of the class.
Or perhaps on the secondary.
Making it based on primary almost guarantees 4 points for everyone. Making it Int guarantees 4 points only for Int-based builds, but it's still practically a guarantee. Your typical human wizard would be walking around with a full house every time. The only way we would ever see a variant wizard would be if they release more at will powers in Arcane than a human wizard could acquire.
The more proposals I see (even my own), the less I like this entire line of thinking.
Also, guess what a bard can do. pick 2-3 MC feat, free choice of like... What? 60 encounter per level? A powerplayer will become a full army all by himself, a normal gamer will lose hours each round to choice what to do.
Plus, this invalidate some class (wizard spellbook feature, Eternal Seeker) and many feats will lose usefulness in favor of the more generic damage/hit enhancers.
I'd leave the encounter and daily powers alone, though, unless you grant them as specific story-based rewards in lieu of treasure (which I have done before).
Ryan
Some of us think that a character having more than 2 At-Wills as opposed to just 2 At-Wills makes the game more interesting to play, and don't want to be shoehorned into playing a Human to fulfill such a desire.
Therefore, implementing a change of this sort is fixing something that is "broken".
Unfortunately, if what happens to be 'broken' is the player's own expectations, there is little that can be done to fix it.
