Giving Minions a saving throw against auto damage? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Giving Minions a saving throw against auto damage?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
robertflatt
Feb 19, 2011 18:48:38 Saw some threads that more or less amounted to the idea of the title. This is just a quick and dirty version. Anyone feel it would be a problem?
#2
Arithezoo
Feb 19, 2011 19:11:13 That depends on your players. Some would get annoyed if they see you doing something just so that they can't kill minions automatically with the powers they took for that purpose. If you want slightly tougher minions, you could give them 2 hp. The first time they take damage (even if from a miss), they are bloodied. At that point, any damage kills them (but they now take no damage from a miss).
That way, starting their turn in an auto damage aura will bloody, but not kill them.
#3
bone_naga
Feb 19, 2011 20:45:48 I don't think it will really unbalance anything. It may create slow things down a bit with the extra rolling if it comes up often. However, I can't say I really understand the necessity for it. Minions are supposed to go down easily. Does autodamage really come up often enough to be an issue? And when it does is it taking out the entire group, or just a minion or two? Is this something that really needs a new rule, or could it be solved by you changing up the grouping and tactics of your monsters? Not saying you're wrong, just some food for thought.
#4
Neutronium_Dragon
Feb 19, 2011 21:10:14 No, I don't think it's necessary, especially considering the much-improved MM3/MV minion design. Some of them already have 'avoid death once' tricks that are far more fitting and interesting than specifically targeting auto-damage (which is SUPPOSED to be effective against minions) with a 'neener-neener' nerf.
#5
Igfig
Feb 19, 2011 21:41:42 Before MM3, I liked the idea of giving all minions saving throws against autodamage. Now, though, I agree with Neutronium_Dragon. You could make a minion that got to save vs. autodamage, but that would be just one of the many 'avoid death once' tricks available to minions in general. Every minion should have either one of those tricks or some other way to get in an extra hit, though.

(By the way, if you saw some threads on the topic why didn't you post there? Just wondering.)
#6
robertflatt
Feb 21, 2011 4:49:16 @ Igfig: As to why I posted I guess I'll just never develop the finesse of forum etiquette. The posts I referred to were replies to other suggetions and in other forums/topics, and then I could be berated for going off-topic or acts of necromancy.

As to why I'm considering it there are two main reasons.

Tactical/mechanical level:'
My players and I quite enjoy the tactical aspect of 4th ed, and the tactics sort of just break down for me with more than a couple of minions on the board. Giving them a saving throw is generally worse than a pure attack would be, making the decision to attack or let the auto damage whittle them away be a meaningful one.
Mechanically i've got a problem with scaling. Trying to keep the story of my game consistent I work a lot with scaling creatures up and down. Using 5 levels as a interval beween minion/standard/elite as a guideline, a "rule" for which i think there is precedence in the books, I end up with combats having more than 1-2 groups of minions. And the threat just doesn't compare.

Abstraction level:
The minions as I understand it was meant to represent an easy (book-keeping wise) representation of numerous minor threats. The one hit point was just a way to say any kind of hit kills, hit being the operative word. No Pc deals less than 7 or so on average on a hit anyway so it doesn't matter. Enter auto-damage.
I just don't see all the varieties of auto-damage that exists in the game as meant to be minion popping powers/fields of death, but it is the effect and it bugs me.
I would rather that the decision how to deal with minions was a part of the combat at hand, instead of a part of character creation.


#7
Qube
Feb 21, 2011 5:49:13 (shameless plug to guide to disreality - variant rules for minions)

as 'saving throw vs autodamage' is one of the suggestions, I don't see any problem with it.

Note however, that many 'effect'-damage powers are designed to kill minions. upping minions means downing these powers ...
#8
Igfig
Feb 21, 2011 15:02:50
@ Igfig: As to why I posted I guess I'll just never develop the finesse of forum etiquette. The posts I referred to were replies to other suggetions and in other forums/topics, and then I could be berated for going off-topic or acts of necromancy.

I see your point. We really ought to have stickied compilation threads for this kind of thing. And speaking of shameless plugs, check out my compilation thread, "The Last Word: Minions" (via my sig).

Anyway, a lot of autodamage zones kind of are meant to be minion-popping fields of death. I'm not against the idea of autodamage saves, mind you (I agree with all your points), I just think you shouldn't restrict yourself to a single mechanic. Why not try:

minions that don't die until the end of their next turn?

minions that shift one square and fall prone? (instead of taking autodamage)

minions that gain resist all during their turn?

minions that can fly?

minions who dispel autodamage squares when they die?

minions that can teleport?

minions with resistance to a specific keyword?

minions that grant their allies bonuses when they die?

Keep your players on their toes.

As for creature scaling, I do it by comparing XP. Since XP doubles every four levels, a level 1 solo is a level 6 elite is a level 10 standard is a level 14 elite minion is a level 19 minion. (Minions are worth 1/5 in paragon and 1/6 in epic, remember.)
#9
robertflatt
Feb 21, 2011 21:19:37 Nice ideas from all. I guess it's just a case of getting inventive, although it seems I wouldn't be shot down for it.

For a little background my group is 5 people with a monk and a swarm druid. They just leveled up to 9th and for all of the heroic tier they've made minions kind of lackluster. I've been chalking it up to them having a lot of bursts and blasts and character choices and been ok with it (notice this isn't what I'm addressing as all these powers involve hitting).

3 or so levels ago they found some Tempest whetstones (essentially a burst 2, 2 lightining autodamage from where they hit). It seemed like a fitting treasure, found underneath where a storm elemental had being sitting captured for millenia.
Back in the present I made an encounter involving a host of minions. Now they've been sitting on these stones using some in some harder encounters. Naturally they pulled out these stone (good tactics) and utterly destroyed the encounter. It felt flat for both me and them.

Now the only auto-damage they otherwise have had access to is the paladin's marks and monks flurry.  It's not alot, and contemplating paragon play and possible different characters it just seems to me that it's more a case of two mechanics (auto-damage and minions) colliding than cooperating.
Now I know this is circumstancial at best, and that is why I turned to the forums, but I honestly am not sure that the "fields of death" effects are intentional or warranted. From the missed attack never hits to the amount of minion exceptions that is pasted on powers/items plenty of rulings goes in a different direction.

Regarding MM3 I like some of what they've done and other things I find a bit jarring. The lending of at-wills and different encounter powers seems a bit counter-intuitive to the whole easy book-keeping aspect of minions.

Guess my stance is that more actual fun and excitement at the table is had by rolling dice and keeping a bit of uncertainty than cool calculation of mechanics.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 robertflatt Feb 19, 2011 18:48:38	Saw some threads that more or less amounted to the idea of the title. This is just a quick and dirty version. Anyone feel it would be a problem?
#2 Arithezoo Feb 19, 2011 19:11:13	That depends on your players. Some would get annoyed if they see you doing something just so that they can't kill minions automatically with the powers they took for that purpose. If you want slightly tougher minions, you could give them 2 hp. The first time they take damage (even if from a miss), they are bloodied. At that point, any damage kills them (but they now take no damage from a miss). That way, starting their turn in an auto damage aura will bloody, but not kill them.
#3 bone_naga Feb 19, 2011 20:45:48	I don't think it will really unbalance anything. It may create slow things down a bit with the extra rolling if it comes up often. However, I can't say I really understand the necessity for it. Minions are supposed to go down easily. Does autodamage really come up often enough to be an issue? And when it does is it taking out the entire group, or just a minion or two? Is this something that really needs a new rule, or could it be solved by you changing up the grouping and tactics of your monsters? Not saying you're wrong, just some food for thought.
#4 Neutronium_Dragon Feb 19, 2011 21:10:14	No, I don't think it's necessary, especially considering the much-improved MM3/MV minion design. Some of them already have 'avoid death once' tricks that are far more fitting and interesting than specifically targeting auto-damage (which is SUPPOSED to be effective against minions) with a 'neener-neener' nerf.
#5 Igfig Feb 19, 2011 21:41:42	Before MM3, I liked the idea of giving all minions saving throws against autodamage. Now, though, I agree with Neutronium_Dragon. You could make a minion that got to save vs. autodamage, but that would be just one of the many 'avoid death once' tricks available to minions in general. Every minion should have either one of those tricks or some other way to get in an extra hit, though. (By the way, if you saw some threads on the topic why didn't you post there? Just wondering.)
#6 robertflatt Feb 21, 2011 4:49:16	@ Igfig: As to why I posted I guess I'll just never develop the finesse of forum etiquette. The posts I referred to were replies to other suggetions and in other forums/topics, and then I could be berated for going off-topic or acts of necromancy. As to why I'm considering it there are two main reasons. Tactical/mechanical level:' My players and I quite enjoy the tactical aspect of 4th ed, and the tactics sort of just break down for me with more than a couple of minions on the board. Giving them a saving throw is generally worse than a pure attack would be, making the decision to attack or let the auto damage whittle them away be a meaningful one. Mechanically i've got a problem with scaling. Trying to keep the story of my game consistent I work a lot with scaling creatures up and down. Using 5 levels as a interval beween minion/standard/elite as a guideline, a "rule" for which i think there is precedence in the books, I end up with combats having more than 1-2 groups of minions. And the threat just doesn't compare. Abstraction level: The minions as I understand it was meant to represent an easy (book-keeping wise) representation of numerous minor threats. The one hit point was just a way to say any kind of hit kills, hit being the operative word. No Pc deals less than 7 or so on average on a hit anyway so it doesn't matter. Enter auto-damage. I just don't see all the varieties of auto-damage that exists in the game as meant to be minion popping powers/fields of death, but it is the effect and it bugs me. I would rather that the decision how to deal with minions was a part of the combat at hand, instead of a part of character creation.
#7 Qube Feb 21, 2011 5:49:13	(shameless plug to guide to disreality - variant rules for minions) as 'saving throw vs autodamage' is one of the suggestions, I don't see any problem with it. Note however, that many 'effect'-damage powers are designed to kill minions. upping minions means downing these powers ...
#8 Igfig Feb 21, 2011 15:02:50	@ Igfig: As to why I posted I guess I'll just never develop the finesse of forum etiquette. The posts I referred to were replies to other suggetions and in other forums/topics, and then I could be berated for going off-topic or acts of necromancy. I see your point. We really ought to have stickied compilation threads for this kind of thing. And speaking of shameless plugs, check out my compilation thread, "The Last Word: Minions" (via my sig). Anyway, a lot of autodamage zones kind of are meant to be minion-popping fields of death. I'm not against the idea of autodamage saves, mind you (I agree with all your points), I just think you shouldn't restrict yourself to a single mechanic. Why not try: minions that don't die until the end of their next turn? minions that shift one square and fall prone? (instead of taking autodamage) minions that gain resist all during their turn? minions that can fly? minions who dispel autodamage squares when they die? minions that can teleport? minions with resistance to a specific keyword? minions that grant their allies bonuses when they die? Keep your players on their toes. As for creature scaling, I do it by comparing XP. Since XP doubles every four levels, a level 1 solo is a level 6 elite is a level 10 standard is a level 14 elite minion is a level 19 minion. (Minions are worth 1/5 in paragon and 1/6 in epic, remember.)
#9 robertflatt Feb 21, 2011 21:19:37	Nice ideas from all. I guess it's just a case of getting inventive, although it seems I wouldn't be shot down for it. For a little background my group is 5 people with a monk and a swarm druid. They just leveled up to 9th and for all of the heroic tier they've made minions kind of lackluster. I've been chalking it up to them having a lot of bursts and blasts and character choices and been ok with it (notice this isn't what I'm addressing as all these powers involve hitting). 3 or so levels ago they found some Tempest whetstones (essentially a burst 2, 2 lightining autodamage from where they hit). It seemed like a fitting treasure, found underneath where a storm elemental had being sitting captured for millenia. Back in the present I made an encounter involving a host of minions. Now they've been sitting on these stones using some in some harder encounters. Naturally they pulled out these stone (good tactics) and utterly destroyed the encounter. It felt flat for both me and them. Now the only auto-damage they otherwise have had access to is the paladin's marks and monks flurry. It's not alot, and contemplating paragon play and possible different characters it just seems to me that it's more a case of two mechanics (auto-damage and minions) colliding than cooperating. Now I know this is circumstancial at best, and that is why I turned to the forums, but I honestly am not sure that the "fields of death" effects are intentional or warranted. From the missed attack never hits to the amount of minion exceptions that is pasted on powers/items plenty of rulings goes in a different direction. Regarding MM3 I like some of what they've done and other things I find a bit jarring. The lending of at-wills and different encounter powers seems a bit counter-intuitive to the whole easy book-keeping aspect of minions. Guess my stance is that more actual fun and excitement at the table is had by rolling dice and keeping a bit of uncertainty than cool calculation of mechanics.