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| #1WolfLordBranOct 06, 2011 22:18:53 | Alright, as I mentioned in the Races and Monster section I'm slowly working on creating an article for gnolls to submit next spring to Wizards. I figured'd it would be smart to get an early start on the article so I'm creating this thread so I can brainstorm ideas and get feedback on any mechanical bits I come up with. I'd really appreciate it if I can get some help once I post up some stuff. Racial Ability Score Update Figure I might as well start here. Since every other PC race has gotten their flex-stat, I only think it's fair that gnolls get theirs. I'm thinking of giving them +2 Con as their base stat and then a choice of +2 Str or +2 Dex for the secondary. As for why I'm picking Con as base, the 4e fluff puts a lot of emphasis on just how tough gnolls are. That's good enough for me. For the flex stats, I chose Str since the same fluff talks about how strong gnolls are and Dex because they're supposed to be nimble despite their size. I almost went with Wis but I decided against it because of the Wis-bloat in races and simply that Wisdom doesn't make a lot of sense for a race of hot-headed demon worshippers and savage monsters (for the most part). The gnoll's ties with nature and instinct can be covered by their skill bonuses. Alternate Racial Power I'm also thinking of giving gnolls a choice between two racial encounter powers: Ferocious Charge and what I'm at the moment calling Maddening Laughter. The current idea for Maddening Laughter is some sort of defensive/offensive aura that the gnoll can activate and lasts until the start of their next turn. Just what it will do I haven't decided yet but that's why I'm posting here. Edit: See Reply # 3 for current idea of Maddening Laughter. Ok, I'll update this as I write up more of my draft and I get responses so feel free to stop by and leave a post or two. |
| #2Neutronium_DragonOct 07, 2011 1:48:36 | I would strongly prefer Dex + Str/Con to avoid the problem of two stats in the same defense silo. It's also a more flexible option. While it may sound odd at first, consider Con + Dex/Cha. Why charisma? Their society places a strong emphasis on dominance, and Cha represents one way to exert that - force of personality - a way that also matches their habits as expressed in the Playing Gnolls article. It certainly doesn't hurt that it also opens up some not-so-cliched options: infernal hexblade (also matches their fluff), battlemind, valorous bard, and so on. Maddening Laughter... the only obvious effect would be "grants combat advantage" but that's probably too weak. If it also prevented the opponent from gaining combat advantage (and/or perhaps stopping opportunity attacks) then that might work. Something like a Burst 2 effect until your end-of-next-turn. Something also needs to be done about pack attack being melee only. I don't know if you'll be allowed to rewrite the original stat block to remove that limitation and "make a feat out of it" just contributes to the tax/bloat problem, but perhaps an alternate feature for those who prefer ranged combat instead? -- Beyond that, I'd need to ask this: what is the general theme you're aiming to cover in the article's fluff? |
| #3WolfLordBranOct 07, 2011 10:13:06 | Hmm. Charisma you say? I see what you're saying about their culture. It makes sense and I'll take your idea into consideration. I'd just like a little more input to see what others think. Good catch too with those classes you mentioned. I hadn't even thought of InfernaBlades and yeah, that is a really nice class for them. I've created the first idea of Maddening Laughter so here it is. Maddening Laughter Gnoll Racial Power All gnolls possess a cackling laugh like the hyenas they resemble but you have honed your laughter into a weapon just as dangerous as any spell or blade. Unnerving at the best of times, you can use your laughter to discourage enemies from attacking and send them running when your anger is roused. Encounter ♦ Aura, Fear Minor Action Personal Effect: You create an aura 1 that lasts until the start of your next turn. While the aura is active, any enemy that targets you with an attack while within the aura takes a -2 to their attack roll. If you use a power that pushes or slides a target that is within the aura, you may increase the distance by 1 square. Special: You can choose this at character creation instead of Ferocious Charge. So like I said, it's both offensive and defensive. The general idea is that the laughter is so horrible that other creatures are loathe to come near and strike the gnoll, and the increase in push/slide represents the creature actively trying to get away from the gnoll. Sound good or does it need some tweaking? I was actually thinking of including an update to Pack Attack so that it affected any damage roll you made, not just melee ones. I don't know if WotC would take that but it's worth including to find out. For the general theme, I'm going with the Hyena Soul that the original article talks about. Gnolls who balance their animal instincts and sentient thought. They are in tune with nature more than the Butcher's Brood so any feats/whatever I come up with would have a more "primal" feel than the demonic nature of monster gnolls. |
| #4rampantOct 07, 2011 10:34:04 | In case my opinon means anything, I'd honestly prefer the charisma option. I get pretty tired of the 'monster' races being all str and con with a dash of wis or dex, being an evil psychopath doesn't automatically make you dumb and ill mannered. |
| #5EisenritterOct 07, 2011 10:39:10 | Keep Strength. Barbarian also keeps with gnoll flavor. ![]() Also, maybe default Gnoll Tracker into the frame? It's kinda nothing but flavor, it'd prolly be better as a minor racial feature. |
| #6Neutronium_DragonOct 07, 2011 19:23:10 | I think they'll do perfectly well as barbarians without Strength (and piling a Strength boost on top of everything else just for the sake of the barbarian class would be putting too much focus on the I'm-a-brute shtick). If their stats are Con + Dex/Cha then they've effectively got their pick of any two of the three barbarian secondaries and their racial features (and racial power) also synergize very well with the barbarian. Racial utilities seem to be the in thing for dragon articles right now (racial attack powers less so because they don't mesh with Essentials design), so a few of those are probably the easiest to get approved. I have to head out for a bit so I won't have time to think of examples until later, though! |
| #7rampantOct 07, 2011 19:31:57 | I'd be leery of trying to force racial powers (beyond the starters ones of course) on a race not designed with those in mind. |
| #8WolfLordBranOct 07, 2011 20:49:27 | Sorry if I didn't make it clear but Maddening Laughter was supposed to be an option gnolls could take instead of Ferocious Charge. I'll go edit my post to include that in. |
| #9rampantOct 08, 2011 0:02:36 | I was referring to the suggestion regarding racial utilities, but a little clarification on that point couldn't hurt either. Frankly Ferocious charge needs a Ferocious re-write. |
| #10Neutronium_DragonOct 08, 2011 0:05:24 | Racial utilities aren't 'forced'. They're options along with whatever else is available at that level. There were a bunch published a month or two ago in Dragon, along with the earlier Skill Powers concept and the more recent theme-based utility power options. |
| #11Neutronium_DragonOct 11, 2011 22:33:42 | > If you use a power that pushes or slides a target that is within the aura, you > may increase the distance by 1 square. The issue that I have with this is that many characters won't get any real use out of it (and those who are push/slide specialized hardly need even more of a boost). I think I'd still favor the "grants combat advantage, and can't make opportunity attacks" as an offensive/defensive option - it's not as stack-prone but it still has definite tactical implications. It also has a better theme match: the whole 'pack' benefits, not just the gnoll! -- That gives me a feat idea though: Blood-Crazed Laughter. If a creature begins its turn in the aura and it or the gnoll are bloodied, the gnoll can slide it one square as a free action. |
| #12rampantOct 12, 2011 19:34:33 | Did you take Improved Missing the Point as a feat or something? Racial utilities are for races who possess enough unique or iconic powers to warrant a bunch of additional options regardless of their actual class. Gnolls don't. |
| #13rampantOct 12, 2011 20:48:28 | You know that was addressed to Neutronium dragon. I made the same clarification you just did. |
| #14EisenritterOct 12, 2011 20:50:41 | You know that was addressed to Neutronium dragon. Ah. In that case, I'll apologize. ![]() |
| #15Neutronium_DragonOct 13, 2011 6:44:11 | Utility power-swaps (racial or otherwise) are the "in thing" with design right now. Regardless of whether you like them, it's more likely that they'll get through the submissions process. There is also nothing wrong with having racial utility powers along with feats, especially if something is better represented by a power than by a feat. -- Ferocious Charge is okay as-is for those classes/characters that make use of charging (which is now a rather large number thanks to Essentials), and it actually works well alongside everything else since it doesn't take the place of the charge attack (unlike the garbage that the minotaur got stuck with). That, and WotC apparently hates the thought of directly revising an already-published game element, so getting in a rewrite of Ferocious Charge is pretty much off the table. An alternative feature like Maddening Laughter may get through, though. -- In keeping with the primal theme, and the fact that they're supposed to be good trackers with a strong sense of smell one other feat possibility that comes to mind would be to allow the gnoll to ignore partial concealment (and/or downgrade total concealment to partial) against any target they currently have marked. Likewise, since they're pack creatures and pack fighters, perhaps a feat or utility that allows a gnoll to transfer an enemy's mark on an ally onto itself when the gnoll makes an attack against it? A quick example of how it might be written: "When you attack an enemy that has marked an ally, and you are not currently marked by any enemy, you can choose to choose to gain that enemy's mark and all associated effects. If you do so, the mark ends on the marked ally." It would need to be limited to transferring one mark at a time though, so you can only protect one ally at a time this way. |
| #16Mythril_SageOct 14, 2011 0:24:30 | To Neutronium_Dragon: That power sounds...overly complicated...at least in it's wording. I feel that it's a little niche too, but I could see someone getting some use out of it. So WolfLord Bran,... I can see your point about the gnolls flavor favoring the bloodthirsty demon worshiping savages idea, but I would love to have access to Primal classes like the shaman or druid without having to stretch myself out too much. I feel those classes are worthy of the gnoll's primal side even when the race favors melee. I'm not saying that they have to be optimal, but I would like it if they were advantaged toward those classes. I even know of a thread that might help stimulate some ideas for your Gnoll. Check it out here. Now about the glut of Wisdom stat races, yes it does feel a little like overkill, but the Gnoll's other racial features can certainly make up for a little wisdom in the race and allow it the flexibility I feel they deserve. I hope to hear what you think. |