Goblin Races (Specifically for Eberron)

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

greatfrito

Mar 05, 2010 5:06:54

This thread includes PC racial write-ups for Bugbears, Goblins, and Hobgoblins, including several feat options for each, and a handful of backgrounds one might choose.  Some options are related to using these races in Eberron, but the base stats for the races, as well as many feats, should be universal enough for use.


Comments and feedback are always welcome.


Old Edits / Updates
First up is the Hobgoblin, as it's the race I'm most eager to re-introduce in a fuller sense to my Eberron games.  Bugbear and Goblin will be added soon, along with actual descriptions of the backgrounds referenced, and eventually of the races themselves.

EDIT: Next is the Bugbear.  Bugbear is the race that needs the most "work" to make into a viable player race.  Luckily that have enough flavor to really work with.  My attempt at them obviously drops Oversized.  Hopefully the features I included in its place aren't too powerful.  I tried to keep it nearly on-par with the Half-Orc and Dragonborn, in theory.


EDIT: Finally, the Goblin.  I've left the Goblin stats as-is.  I found that designing their feats was relatively easy - they have such strong themes, that feats essentially write themselves.


EDIT: In addition, some Backgrounds are available.  This batch focuses on the backgrounds referenced in the Eberron-Specific feats, dealing mostly with the clans of Darguun.


EDIT: In a "stealth update", I've added an (entirely fluff) "sidebar" on the Combat Styles (see Martial Power 2) of Eberron goblinoids.


EDIT: A few feats changed and/or added.  Specifically: Pervasive Viciousness replaces Greater Viciousness for Bugbears; Flanking Goblin Tactics, Coward's Defense, and Virtue of Cowardice added for Goblins; Ready Assault cleaned up for Hobgoblins; and Majesty of Battle and Veiled Intimidation added for Hobgoblins.


EDIT: After long thought, I've finally added the Natural Leader feature to the Hobgoblin.  I think it captures a bit of the flavor, with a useful mechanic.  If I think of a universal feat associated with it, I might add one.


I should add that I'm aware of Hebitsuikaza's (quite excellent) goblin races, though I had already completed this one prior to reading them.  I feel like I have enough "distinct" content to warrant a new thread, rather than merely commenting on his.


 


 

#2

greatfrito

Mar 07, 2010 3:07:28
Added the Bugbear (to the first post).  Haven't really looked at other folks' attempts, so I'm not sure what has and has not been done with the race before (other than obviously dropping Oversized).  Hopefully it's about on-par with the Half-Orc.
#3

lady_ishtar

Mar 07, 2010 11:55:09
I really like these guys, and consider them stolen for my home game. I can't wait to see goblins.
#4

greatfrito

Mar 08, 2010 3:55:10
I really like these guys, and consider them stolen for my home game. I can't wait to see goblins.



Thank you!  I'm just glad to get some kind of feedback.

As for goblins: wish granted.

Goblin has been added to the first post.  While their basic stats remain unchanged from the Monster Manual version (including goblin tactics as an at-will power), I think the feats are a lot of fun, and really give Goblins are strong niche.
#5

lady_ishtar

Mar 08, 2010 6:21:43
Those little guys look fun. I really like how all of their feats are designed to stay away frm people, rather than to be badasses like their larger cousins. Awesome work.
#6

babyj

Mar 08, 2010 22:59:09

Goblin has been added to the first post.  While their basic stats remain unchanged from the Monster Manual version (including goblin tactics as an at-will power), I think the feats are a lot of fun, and really give Goblins are strong niche.


Yes, very nice. Their niche is well-defined with those. Bookmarking!
#7

Hebitsuikaza

Mar 09, 2010 0:55:26
Not bad, although you seem to be refering to backgrounds that you haven't included here in some of your feats (such as "City Goblin", not the Eberron regional backgrounds).

I'm not sure I care for the base races themselves, you seem to be including some things I've been persuaded away from in my versions.

The strength is really in the feats here. You have some feats here that may be better than have the same thematic support as ones that I came up with, but might function better than the ones I wrote as well as others that would coexist quite nicely with the ones I came up with.

Really, I don't see why those of us who want to come up with official goblinoids can't work together though. Seems like there are at least 3 of us working on the same thing here.

Anyway, I'm in the middle of creating of racial paragon paths. You going to move on to backgrounds and paragon paths yourself, try to come up with something for the Bhuka or stop here?
#8

greatfrito

Mar 10, 2010 23:04:47
_


Somehow I missed your post, and that my thread had a new post.  I didn't think the Homebrew forum had enough traffic to bury a thread like that.

Not bad, although you seem to be refering to backgrounds that you haven't included here in some of your feats (such as "City Goblin", not the Eberron regional backgrounds).


Ah!  I need to go do that, you're right.  I had the ideas for them set out, based on my 3.5 and 4th edition materials (which is how I constructed the feats), but I never actually got around to writing them down.  I'm going to go do that.

I'm not sure I care for the base races themselves, you seem to be including some things I've been persuaded away from in my versions.


Hm.  Like what?  I'm curious what you've been "persuaded" away from in the original monster-race write-ups, or what you've edged away from that I added to them.

The strength is really in the feats here. You have some feats here that may be better than have the same thematic support as ones that I came up with, but might function better than the ones I wrote as well as others that would coexist quite nicely with the ones I came up with.


Thank you.  I love my feats.  They were really the entire goal of writing up the goblin races, which you could probably tell (as the actual race write-ups are largely the same as in the MM).

Really, I don't see why those of us who want to come up with official goblinoids can't work together though. Seems like there are at least 3 of us working on the same thing here.


We should, probably.  But I think many of us have different goals, and different concepts.  Maybe we need to start a "Grand Unified Goblinoids" thread, and see what we can combine, and what is just going to remain seperate (because we're picky, or stubborn ).

Anyway, I'm in the middle of creating of racial paragon paths. You going to move on to backgrounds and paragon paths yourself, try to come up with something for the Bhuka or stop here?


I'm not sure what a Bhuka is?  Is it like the Blue?  (I actually wrote the Blue up previously, when I did my first draft of psionic classes, but I'm not too fond of it in retrospect.)

I'm going to go put the backgrounds together tonight / tomorrow.  I wasn't planning Paragon Paths, but if I do them they will probably be Eberron-specific, and thematically tied to the backgrounds - so I don' think there will be very much overlap.

My "next step" (when I stop getting distracted by other random things) is to create more Race-Class feats, to fill in some niches, and give the races support more on the level of other "official" races.
#9

Hebitsuikaza

Mar 11, 2010 0:31:27
Well, I think you have the link to the Goblin compendium in the first post here and I've changed my first threat in that post up to link to the new versions. You can read the replies to see the arguements that made me shift over and over until I reached my current versions.

The Bhuka is a goblinoid released in the Sandstorm expansion. They are good goblins who live in the desert, you can do a google search on them or check out the Sandstorm book. They are sort of like "Blues" in that they were released in an expansion book, but unlike Blues they aren't simply Goblins born with a mutation but actually a seperate goblinoid race that fills a nice niche that the other three don't fill.
#10

greatfrito

Mar 11, 2010 8:54:33
Well, I think you have the link to the Goblin compendium in the first post here and I've changed my first threat in that post up to link to the new versions. You can read the replies to see the arguements that made me shift over and over until I reached my current versions.


Will do.

The Bhuka is a goblinoid released in the Sandstorm expansion. They are good goblins who live in the desert, you can do a google search on them or check out the Sandstorm book. They are sort of like "Blues" in that they were released in an expansion book, but unlike Blues they aren't simply Goblins born with a mutation but actually a seperate goblinoid race that fills a nice niche that the other three don't fill.


Hm.  I need to go see if I still have our copy of that (I know someone did, and I ended up with a lot of my old group's books, so I might have it...).
#11

heathan_v20

Mar 11, 2010 21:54:47
I have to say I'm very much into this thread. I was a big fan of the Dhakaani in Eberron. Infact I've based atleast 2 character's I've played on Hobgoblin's who are from the last remaining clans of the Dhakaani. Furthermore I do think you should do a little more reading up on the goblinoids of Eberron. Also I'd change the prereq for Goblin Weapon training to include Dhakaani background if you plan on use it.

Also here are some info on Dhakaani caste just incase you can't find any info. Dhakaani favored mobility, so combat feats should improve their mobility and defenses more often then raw damage. I see Dhakaani as being tactical strike kinda guys, better to take a few jabs in the eye and get that one knock out punch then just fire away at will.
Bugbears served as shock troops, and where considered berserkers/dervishes. I'd like to see feats that show that and push them in that direction for striker classes like two-weapon ranger, barbarian, avenger, etc.
Hobgoblins where the leading caste, however one thing does not tie well with the Dhakaani in 4E. That is that Dhakaani leaders where female dirge singers (bards). I'd like to see some feats or special Bard Build that makes the Hobgoblin an awesome Bard.
That's really all I can think of for now good luck and hope these help get the wheels turnin.



PS: oddly enough I just wanted to say, how do you pronounce Dhakaani??? I've heard many say dah-khan-EYE, but I always want to say thah-kah-an-E
#12

greatfrito

Mar 12, 2010 4:36:24
I have to say I'm very much into this thread. I was a big fan of the Dhakaani in Eberron. Infact I've based atleast 2 character's I've played on Hobgoblin's who are from the last remaining clans of the Dhakaani. Furthermore I do think you should do a little more reading up on the goblinoids of Eberron.


Awesome.  Darguun was one of the regions that became more and more of a favorite as we played Eberron in 3.5.  I had a player play a Khesh'dar goblin Ninja in a 3.5 campaign for a while.  Good times.

Also I'd change the prereq for Goblin Weapon training to include Dhakaani background if you plan on use it.


I'm running with it as-is (Requiring only the region of Darguun, not any specific clan background), because of the Darguun Mauler feat from 3.5 (Races of Eberron; it was open to any goblins in Darguun).

Hobgoblins where the leading caste, however one thing does not tie well with the Dhakaani in 4E. That is that Dhakaani leaders where female dirge singers (bards). I'd like to see some feats or special Bard Build that makes the Hobgoblin an awesome Bard.


The 4th editon Hobgoblin actually makes an excellent Bard, since they have both the Charisma and Constitution bonuses.  I plan on putting more feats toward it in the future (when I start putting together race/class feats in earnest).  As for the other cultural fighting styles, I feel that they're already well covered by the Martial Power 2 Combat Style feats - they just need to be reflavored into more "Eberron Specific" descriptions and names.

That's really all I can think of for now good luck and hope these help get the wheels turnin.



Thanks!  Hope you keep on enjoying it.

PS: oddly enough I just wanted to say, how do you pronounce Dhakaani??? I've heard many say dah-khan-EYE, but I always want to say thah-kah-an-E



I'm bad with typing out phoenetics, but we've always gone with "dah-KHAN-ee", with the empire being "dah-KHAN".

==============================================


Eberron-specific backgrounds have been added to the first post.  It's late, and I really should be sleeping, so I can't really attest to their quality at the moment.  They cover some niches, but more importantly, they fill in the backgrounds that serve as requirements for many of the Eberron-specific feats.

#13

Chiba_Monkey

May 26, 2010 16:21:29

I like it a lot frito!  I'm a big fan of Eberron and am glad to see what looks to be a seriously balanced bugbear as well as other support for some goblinoids.


EDIT: missed the Goblin weapon training feat.  this covered the rest of my post.

lol Great job!

#14

Chiba_Monkey

May 26, 2010 18:08:31
I have some feedback for you if you'd like to hear it:

Balance notes on feats.

Predator's Superiority should read only "The target grants CA to you until the end of your next turn."  Otherwise seems too powerful.

Defensive Goblin tactics seems a little strong, especially since the trigger power is an at-will.  Unfortunately I cannot think of a suggested fix.

Hobgoblin Tactics, I assume, was meant to represent the Phalanx ability of most Hobgoblins.  Should not the feat require either the hobgoblin and/or the adjacent ally to be wearing a shield?

I Like Ready Assault, but the wording on it seems a little off.  I suggest "You gain a +5 bonus to damage rolls during the first round of combat" Seems simpler.

And Perpetual Resiliance...seems a little strong.  Something about such a character essentially having a 65% chance (if they also have the paragon feat giving them a +2 to saving throws made with HR) to throw off EVERY save ends ability before it ever affects them.  Add to that a Hobgoblin Warden with this feat would have that 65% chance and then another 55% chance before they ever felt the effects.
#15

Swordior

May 26, 2010 18:40:07
Don't know what's up with your post, but yes there are Kobolds in Eberron. The Iredar and the Irvhir.
#16

erik_the_guy

May 26, 2010 22:54:58
That was weird. I wanted to point out that one of the feats is weak (the one that changes the bugbear's racial ability from 1d6 to 1d8). +1 damage once per fight seems too weak for a feat.
#17

stargazer_dragon

May 27, 2010 9:48:15
there are curently a ton of races that have a feat that upp there racial power by 1 die (D6 to D8) so  how is it weak compared to them?
#18

erik_the_guy

May 28, 2010 9:47:46
Most of those die rolls are more valuable. The Dragonborn breath upgrade hits multiple targets with d8 instead of d6, the Deva d6 is a bonus to anything once per fight, and is far more versatile than the bugbear's ability (a damage bonus that is lost if you miss on your next attack). Even so I find the Deva and Dragonborn feat rather weak. I'm not certain if there are any other feats that turn a d6 into a d8 for a racial encounter power, but I would argue that they are either different from this feat or that they are also just plain weak.

As an afterthough, you might want to change the bugbear power, to something along the lines of 'the next time you hit before the end of your next turn' rather than 'bonus damage to your next attack'. Either that, or you could change it to a free action with hitting as a trigger. I find it unfortunate that this bonus damage will be wasted about 30% of the time due to a simple miss. 
#19

urpriest

May 28, 2010 15:46:48
I've been building an ancient Egypt-like setting in which hobgoblins fill the role of the Persian empire, so your more civilized Eberron hobgoblins are closer to what I'm looking for. I'd been worried that their racial features are a tad underwhelming, though, and I see you don't add any. Do you think the hobgoblin is desirable enough at baseline? The other goblin thread adds a racial feature, but it's not really in keeping with how hobgoblins behave in my setting.
#20

greatfrito

May 28, 2010 19:20:59
Hey, this thread got dug up again?  Awesome.  Laughing

Thanks for the feedback - I'll post again with better (ie - any) responses to the last flurry of posts later, after I get a bit of work done around the house.
#21

greatfrito

May 28, 2010 21:21:23
I have some feedback for you if you'd like to hear it:


Very much so!

Predator's Superiority should read only "The target grants CA to you until the end of your next turn."  Otherwise seems too powerful.


Ah, that was the intent originally.  However, compared to, say, the Warforged racial Fighter feat (Warforged Superiority, which knocks the target prone in addition to the attack), I think it's potent, but fine.  CA is a lesser included effect of Prone, after all, so it's at least a step down there.  The Bugbear might be able to take more advantage of the CA than a Warforged can (via his racial power), so... I dunno.  With that all said, do you still think it's too powerful?

Defensive Goblin tactics seems a little strong, especially since the trigger power is an at-will.  Unfortunately I cannot think of a suggested fix.


Well, it could be "+1 AC/Reflex against the creature who triggered Goblin Tactics" (perhaps you could suggest a better full wording?), but I think that's a bit... weak, maybe?

Hobgoblin Tactics, I assume, was meant to represent the Phalanx ability of most Hobgoblins.  Should not the feat require either the hobgoblin and/or the adjacent ally to be wearing a shield?


It could, but I don't think it needs to.  Thematically I wanted it to be useful when fighting with two-handed weapons, or two weapons, and mechanically I wanted it to be a small bonus that will likely be active a lot - again, something similar to a Warforged feat (Warforged Tactics, which gives the more valuable +1 attack when an ally is adjacent to your target).

I Like Ready Assault, but the wording on it seems a little off.  I suggest "You gain a +5 bonus to damage rolls during the first round of combat" Seems simpler.


That's a much better wording.  I'll change it to that, if you don't mind. 

And Perpetual Resiliance...seems a little strong.  Something about such a character essentially having a 65% chance (if they also have the paragon feat giving them a +2 to saving throws made with HR) to throw off EVERY save ends ability before it ever affects them.  Add to that a Hobgoblin Warden with this feat would have that 65% chance and then another 55% chance before they ever felt the effects.


It is a really potent ability, and may be out of line.  I suspected as much when I wrote it, honestly.  The only drawback seems to be that it eats your Immediate action, limiting it to one use per round (or no use, if you have any other Immediate option).  It might still work out alright - it is epic tier after all - though it seems more like an epic destiny feature...  For consideration, there is an existing Martial feat that basically gives an (improved) version of the Warden's Font of Life for certain effects (Martial Resolve: You make a save at the start and end of your turn for dazed, slowed, stunned, weakened, and immobilized.). 

If it's still too much as-is, maybe something like the Fey Charge feat.  Maybe instead of making Hobgoblin Resilience into an at-will, it could just gain "If you succeed at the save granted by Hobgob Resilience, you do not expend Hobgob Resilience", or alternatively "If you fail the save granted by Hobgob Resilience, you do not expend Hobgob Resilience."  Though both of those seem more like Paragon feat effects to me, than Epic feat effects.

That was weird. I wanted to point out that one of the feats is weak (the one that changes the bugbear's racial ability from 1d6 to 1d8). +1 damage once per fight seems too weak for a feat.


Y'know, I had written it without actually thinking about it too hard.  I based it off of the Rogue and Ranger class feats, actually - the ones that improve their Striker bonus damage dice from d6 to d8 - but I can see how that's a much better option for an "always on" ability, than a once-per-encounter Racial power.

The Dragonborn's Empowered Breath feat actually boosts their breath weapon damage from d6 to d10 - however, it's a Paragon feat.

Given that Predatory Eye is somewhat more restrained that the breath attack, would an appropriate change be for the feat to bump the PE damage dice from d6 to d10? 

My only concern there is whether that would make Predatory Eye just outright superior to the Half-Orc's (somewhat similar) racial power.  PE is, again, more restricted, requiring both its own action, and that you hit with a subsequent attack, but it gives scaling extra damage dice...  Eh, realistically, I don't think PE getting bumped up to d10s would be too much.  Thoughts?

I've been building an ancient Egypt-like setting in which hobgoblins fill the role of the Persian empire, so your more civilized Eberron hobgoblins are closer to what I'm looking for. I'd been worried that their racial features are a tad underwhelming, though, and I see you don't add any. Do you think the hobgoblin is desirable enough at baseline? The other goblin thread adds a racial feature, but it's not really in keeping with how hobgoblins behave in my setting.


I don't think they need another racial feature to be a "good choice", but there's certainly room for one.  I didn't add one because I didn't think of one that necessarily fit what I wanted.  Consider too the Drow race - its only racial features are Darkvision (which, admittedly, is great), Fey Origin (little mechanical impact), Trance (little mechanical impact), and Lolthouched (it's twin racial powers).

So, to answer your question: Yeah, I think it's desireable enough at baseline.  I actually had players use the MM write up, without any feats available - with the feats (especially the Eberron-specific ones) I think they're fairly on-par.  Maybe on the low end of racial power, but still useful.

I'm sure we could add something else (minor) to it without a problem... I just don't know what that would be.  Tongue out


Did that hit everyone's posts?  I hope so...
#22

urpriest

May 28, 2010 23:31:00
To clarify, one of the difficulties with hobgoblins as is is that their stats put them in direct competition with half-elves, whose racial power is insane...while they don't have to have that level of power, they should at least make people feel good for giving up dilettante.

Part of that problem is dealt with in my campaign because they can choose to fill the otherwise empty Int/Con slot via a Cha or Int choice. I'd like for the Cha choice to still seem desirable though.

Part of that would of course be dealt with by the feats, and your thread and the other one are quite helpful in that respect.
#23

erik_the_guy

May 28, 2010 23:43:15
The greater viscousness feat is also a little weak. This one is +2 damage once every few fights. It reminds me of those rather weak feats that add +2 damage on the surprise round etc.
I like the bugbear sense feats that affect different kinds of perception. 
#24

greatfrito

May 29, 2010 2:32:14
To clarify, one of the difficulties with hobgoblins as is is that their stats put them in direct competition with half-elves, whose racial power is insane...while they don't have to have that level of power, they should at least make people feel good for giving up dilettante.

Part of that problem is dealt with in my campaign because they can choose to fill the otherwise empty Int/Con slot via a Cha or Int choice. I'd like for the Cha choice to still seem desirable though.

Part of that would of course be dealt with by the feats, and your thread and the other one are quite helpful in that respect.


Gotcha.  Though I'm still not sure of what would fit, and work well.  I'm just going to toss out ideas at this point, and see if folks like them.

Strategic Coordination: You gain a +2 bonus on skill or ability checks to aid another.  When you successfully Aid Another, Aid Attack, or Aid Defense, you grant the target a +3 bonus instead of +2.

Hobgoblin Leadership: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Intimidate checks.

Strategic Leadership: Allies within 10 squares of you grant a +3 bonus instead of +2 when they succesfully use the Aid Another, Aid Attack, or Aid Defense action.

Menacing Countenance: When you roll an Intimidate check [outside of combat?], roll twice and use either result.

Some of these may work as potential feats...

The greater viscousness feat is also a little weak. This one is +2 damage once every few fights. It reminds me of those rather weak feats that add +2 damage on the surprise round etc.


Yeah, it is on the weaker side of things.  The feature it augments is rather weak itself, but I tend to think that it's okay.

Hm.  Could just scrap the feat entirely, and replace it with something like...

Pervasive Viciousness
Prerequisite: Bugbear
Benefit: You gain the bonus damage from the Vicious Killer feature each time you score a critical hit.

or

Benefit: You gain the bonus damage from the Vicious Killer feature the first time you score a critical hit each round.

I like the bugbear sense feats that affect different kinds of perception. 



Thanks!  I know they're simple, but I thought they worked well.  And I like differentiating between Active- and Passive-Perception.

#25

erik_the_guy

May 30, 2010 0:00:11
Pervasive viscousness isn't bad. I think it would see much more use in later tiers as critical hits become more common. I wouldn't take it at heroic tier, based on the number of critical hits I get each combat being not many. It's more interesting than the +2.

Did you make a feat that recharges predatory eye on a critical? You might only get one critical a fight, but you should get another opportunity to have combat advantage no problem. 
#26

greatfrito

May 30, 2010 17:11:23
Pervasive viscousness isn't bad. I think it would see much more use in later tiers as critical hits become more common. I wouldn't take it at heroic tier, based on the number of critical hits I get each combat being not many. It's more interesting than the +2.


My concern at this point is that it's a vastly superior feat option than then PH1's Devastating Critical [Paragon].  +10 damage on every crit (in paragon), vs. +1d10 damage on every crit.  In Heroic tier it's adding about as much as Devestating Critical, and it only gets better from there.  With Epic-tier crit-fishing builds, I would be concerned that it could be a bit too powerful.

Did you make a feat that recharges predatory eye on a critical? You might only get one critical a fight, but you should get another opportunity to have combat advantage no problem. 


That would probably be another good, and simple, feat to add.
#27

greatfrito

Jun 01, 2010 11:52:16
Going back a bit...

Defensive Goblin tactics seems a little strong, especially since the trigger power is an at-will.  Unfortunately I cannot think of a suggested fix.


Well, it could be "+1 AC/Reflex against the creature who triggered Goblin Tactics" (perhaps you could suggest a better full wording?), but I think that's a bit... weak, maybe?




Back to DGT.

I'm thinking it may be more "in line" with things if changed to "Until the end of your next turn, you gain a +1 bonus to AC or Reflex defense.  Choose the defense when you use goblin tactics."

At that point, it better compares to the Solid Sound feat (+2 Fort, Reflex, or Will defense when you use any Thunder power).

In addition to those considerations, compare Warforged Tactics, and the Hobgoblin's Hobgoblin Tactics feats - both are Heroic feats, and both give circumstantial bonuses (+1 attack for WF, +1 AC/Reflex for Hobbos), but they are likely to be active just as much as the DGT bonuses.  I dunno - I feel like it may still be fine as-is.

Then again, an alternative would be to run with something more akin to Solid Sound.  Maybe "Until the end of your next turn, you gain a +1 bonus to AC, Fortitude, Reflex, or Will defense.  Choose the defense when you use goblin tactics."
#28

qaplawjw

Jun 03, 2010 6:40:24
Do you think you might include racial paragon paths? I'm going to talk to my brother about being a Hobgoblin (maybe a bard, if they need a leader) in a campaign he wants  to start. Or maybe a warlock; they might not need a leader. But I'm going to bookmark this, for later.

Or (maybe in a separate thread) feats/paragon paths to represent different druidic sects? I'm thinking they should be open to all Primal classes, following the Gatekeeper Mystagogue.
#29

greatfrito

Jun 03, 2010 10:52:38
Do you think you might include racial paragon paths? I'm going to talk to my brother about being a Hobgoblin (maybe a bard, if they need a leader) in a campaign he wants  to start. Or maybe a warlock; they might not need a leader. But I'm going to bookmark this, for later.


One: Thanks for bookmarking. 
Two: I may do racial paragon paths, when I get around to it.  However, if I do, they're going to be more "generic", rather than Eberron-specific paths.  I might consider additional Eberron paths, but nearly every idea I've had is readily covered by an existing option.

As a specific example (because you're interested in playing a Bard), Hobgoblin Dirgesinger (an appropriate Dhakaani paragon path for Bards) is already very well covered conceptually and mechanically by the War Chanter paragon path in PH2 (p.82).

I'm probably more likely to revisit the concepts when character themes come out with Dark Sun.  At that point, I'll probably write up some various Eberron-specific themes.

Or (maybe in a separate thread) feats/paragon paths to represent different druidic sects? I'm thinking they should be open to all Primal classes, following the Gatekeeper Mystagogue.


I have to admit, I'm not terribly interested in the druidic sects, so probably not.  Tongue out
#30

AvonRekaes

Aug 18, 2010 9:22:43
Awesome job here! I don't think it could have been done better if it was published in Dragon. I'm subscribing to this thread.
#31

mhbjarkistef

Apr 06, 2011 11:59:15
*subscribe to thread*
#32

greatfrito

Apr 06, 2011 15:27:23
*subscribe to thread*


Well hell then, I guess I should update it.  It's only been, like, 8 months.  Tongue out
#33

Tal-eth

Apr 06, 2011 21:12:28
*subscribe to thread*
#34

greatfrito

Apr 09, 2011 4:17:12
As promised: I'm taking a look at this again.  From the first post:

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A long-overdue update!  Just a small change for tonight - changing the writeups to just reflect the current ability bonus design (really just a format change - the alternate ability choices were already listed).  In addition, I've re-worded some of the Bugbear feats, mostly dealing with Vicious Killer (I think I made them a bit more synergistic, and a bit cleaner).  No changes to the Goblin at the moment (I came back to it, feeling like I should change Goblin Tactics to not be an at-will and not be an immediate action... but honestly, I think the power itself actually works great, and the feats build well with it.  My one concern was how it interacts with defenders, and the Coward's Defense feat really covers that concern.)  Hobgoblin's racial power is adjusted to be no action (instead of a reaction).  It still feels less potent than the Mul's power, but I think it's just fine.  It needed to get out of the "immediate action" slot though (I feel that Goblin can get away with it, because its racial power is at-will).

I still feel like the Bugbear and Goblin are a little... empty.  But when you actually stack them against existing races, I think they come out as plenty potent (and fluffy - well, as much as they can be fluffy without having any written fluff ).  Hobgoblin needs more feats - at least another Epic feat.  And I would still like to put something down to build off of their Natural Leader feature.
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For the Hobgoblin Natural Leader-based feat, what about something like...

[Name Escapes Me At the Moment]
Prerequisites:
Hobgoblin
Benefit: When you use the Aid Attack or Aid Defense action, the bonus against the chosen enemy lasts until the end of your next turn.  When an ally within 10 squares of you uses the Aid Attack or Aid Defense action, the bonus against the chosen enemy lasts until the end of the ally's next turn.

or...

Prerequisites: Hobgoblin
Benefit: When you or an ally within 10 squares of you uses the Aid Attack action, the chosen ally also gains combat advantage for its next attack against the chosen enemy.

or...

Benefit: When you use the Aid Attack or Aid Defense action, instead of an adjacent enemy you can choose any enemy within 10 squares of you.

or... something else.

Mostly just brainstorming at the moment.  And given that it's pretty terribly late at this point, this all might be nonsense.  Thoughts?
#35

Vestras

May 24, 2011 12:09:07
I was just talking to a buddy yesterday on how odd it felt that goblinoids didn't get more racial support in Eberron, and low, there it is! Awesome as always Greatfrito!

Suggestions: Divine support for Hobgoblins based on alignment of deity could be some fun fluff/crunch there.  Say Nobler Path: Must worship unaligned or good deity, gain a bonus to diplomacy, or something of that nature.  
#36

VoyRager

Jul 28, 2011 4:19:13
I really like these guys, and consider them stolen for my home game. I can't wait to see goblins.



Thank you!  I'm just glad to get some kind of feedback.

As for goblins: wish granted.

Goblin has been added to the first post.  While their basic stats remain unchanged from the Monster Manual version (including goblin tactics as an at-will power), I think the feats are a lot of fun, and really give Goblins are strong niche.



I doing the same thing, Your rendition of Darguun is a major cotributor for the settings I'm using for the campaign I running also.
Thx, V.

P.S.
The Players' Vault Group and I has subscribed to this thread and this thread is the linked for references and information about Darguun's settings' and goblins' information. 
#37

Mythril_Sage

Jul 30, 2011 13:24:33
I think the Oversized trait has some merit as long as it is limited to simple weapons.

Also, Large size PC's don't bugger the system since they don't take up any more gameboard space than Medium creatures.

So if you wanted to make a Troll or Ogre monster race it would work well with those in mind, even the Bugbear could work with that.

How many here want to play as a Kenku, Kobold, or *gasp* Kender btw? I'm tinkering with several races on my free time and ideas would really be welcome.
#38

Crimson_Concerto

Jul 30, 2011 13:30:46
I think the Oversized trait has some merit as long as it is limited to simple weapons.

It does not. The problem with the Oversized trait isn't just that it's overpowered. It also has the problem that it very badly pigeon-holes characters in to weapon-using classes and roles or else miss out on a great benefit of their race. Limiting Oversized to simple weapons don't really help that.

Also, Large size PC's don't bugger the system since they don't take up any more gameboard space than Medium creatures.

Yes they do. What makes you think that they don't?
#39

Mythril_Sage

Jul 30, 2011 14:31:06
Ok, for the first one point taken, but there isn't any reason that an alternative racial feature comparable to it couldn't be offered. It's not a bad deal for those classes that aren't melee oriented anyway, just not focused on them.
Anyway, can anyone here imagine a Bugbear in a floppy hat and robes and NOT burst in tears from laughter!? It's hard for me for sure!....Bwahahahahaha! Hmmm...maybe I'd make one far a lark. Rofl.

For the second one, Large is one size category up right? So technically a Large creature occupies the same 5'x5' square as a Medium or Small creature does. A Huge creature takes up a 10'x10' square (basically 4 squares) and would definitely NOT be suitable for a PC race.
#42

greatfrito

Aug 22, 2011 16:33:08
When the "official" Goblin races finally get released, I'm curious to see if they do wind up using Oversized to some degree.  Just because their racial design seems to have been... intentionally unbalanced?  Shot in the head, burried in a shallow grave, and had an outhouse built on top of it? 

I just... don't have a lot of confidence in WotC's capacity to present balanced options (particularly races and classes) anymore, and I wonder how their "goblinoids" will fare
#43

rampant

Aug 23, 2011 17:07:37
That's actually why i'm waffling on the never winter book, wizards has been really meh recently. After the essentials line all the energy seemed to be sucked out of them. Did a 3e Necromancer object to the new versions and level drain the design team or something?

 Anyway I gotta say the bugbear is getting pretty close to workable except for one thing: Bugbear toughness. I mean not only is that bonus gonna pretty much dissapear by mid paragon, it's a bad idea to base it on strength due to racial pigeonholing and all that.

What about making it equivalent to the thoughness feat (5/10/15), but since it's a racial feature a bug bear can take toughness again to get 10/20/30.

Or just give them toughness as a bonus feat. We don't see that much. 
#44

Eisenritter

Aug 23, 2011 19:33:51
That's actually why i'm waffling on the never winter book, wizards has been really meh recently. After the essentials line all the energy seemed to be sucked out of them. Did a 3e Necromancer object to the new versions and level drain the design team or something?

 Anyway I gotta say the bugbear is getting pretty close to workable except for one thing: Bugbear toughness. I mean not only is that bonus gonna pretty much dissapear by mid paragon, it's a bad idea to base it on strength due to racial pigeonholing and all that.

What about making it equivalent to the thoughness feat (5/10/15), but since it's a racial feature a bug bear can take toughness again to get 10/20/30.

Or just give them toughness as a bonus feat. We don't see that much. 



Go look at the dragonborn, then come back.  Same deal. Wink
#45

rampant

Aug 23, 2011 20:01:41
No it's not.

D-born add their con mod to Surge value, which is typically 1/4th the value of the max hp, thus the smaller bonus is more efficient since it applies every time they spend a surge to heal.

Secondly, using con was a bad move, it means that in order to use your racial ability you have to spend at least 2 points on con. Now while Con appeals to a broader array of classes than strength it's still pigeonholing them into con classes.
#46

Eisenritter

Aug 23, 2011 21:43:04
Exactly.  There's (slant) precedent for how Bugbear Toughness is currently written.  There isn't for how you suggested it to be written. Laughing
#47

rampant

Aug 23, 2011 23:43:01
... That's kinda like saying because you burned yourself on a stove, everyone else needs to jump in a bonfire.

A mistake is not a precedent, it's a warning. 

 
#48

Crimson_Concerto

Aug 24, 2011 0:02:07
Rampant's totally right here. Just because the developers did it doesn't mean that it's good. Developer mistakes are to be learned from, not repeated.
#49

greatfrito

Aug 24, 2011 14:47:39
Right, it is something that needs to be changed.  I've been "off" of D&D for a few weeks now (which is my excuse for not going right at it)... but it needs to be different.
#50

rampant

Aug 28, 2011 22:07:31
Next on my list is goblin reflexes.

I know people get tired of hearing this, but static defense bonuses are just about the most boring racial feature to date, and when your competition for the spot is saving throw bonuses that means something.

Consider ripping off the gnoll's pack attack.

Teamwork: You gain a +2/+3/+4 bonus to damage vs enemies who are adjacent to 2 or more of your allies.
#51

wizardmon

Aug 23, 2012 19:53:59
Haha! I have been looking for this on and off for months! I think this is a great thread and that the people here are great people!

Though, I wonder wonder about your choices on ability scores for the hobgoblin. As far as the class spread that the present ability score bonuses offer, the hobgoblin should be "Excellent" at assassin, infernal warlock/hexblade, and firebender (if you use the Avatar 4e rules! xD). And to me does not really fit what a hobgoblin is to me. Besides, its the same ability score bonuses as a kobold!

For a race that "lives for war and bloodshed," should not the primary ability scores reflect this? I really see hobgoblins more frequently in heavy armor than in leather armor, so in my opinion should they not get Strength and not Dexterity. I think Constitution and Charisma are fine, but I wonder if a different pre-determined would be better.

I suggest "Charisma, and either Constitution or Strength." By upgrading from the kobold to dragonborn array, the class spread for the hobgoblin becomes far more appropriate. Warlord, infernal warlock, dragon/storm sorcerer, and others. I know that is not what the Monster Manual offers the Hobgoblin, but there you go. Just my feels on the subject.