I'd like to start over, essentially from scratch. I'd like the races to mesh with the existing "flavor" of the races, as available in existing products - but I want to look at the "monster race" stats from the Monster Manual 1 as being no more conclusive than prior edition mechanics - "inspiration" at best.
Eventually I'll put it all together into a document (or documents, if there's enough content to split the races out) - but for now, in this thread, I'm really just hoping to share my thoughts as I go, and hopefully get some feedback from the other folks with their fingers on the pulse of 4e racial design.
I wanted to add, per the handful of suggestions that I do so, I did submit a "pitch" for the goblinoid races in the last cycle. It was rejected (which I think is okay to say?), which was fine (all of my pitches were, though it was understandable - most on the grounds of "We don't want feats; we don't want themes; you need to write more of a story to go with these") - but it was interesting that those were declined on grounds that "we have those races in the works for future products already." Good news, for goblin fans, but WotC's recent races leaves me feeling that... I don't expect much to come from the "official" versions. Nothing good, anyways.
Drawing from the Monster Vault (which seems to have the most "official" information, unless someone can point me to a better source), I think we can glean a short list of "qualities" for the races:
From the Monster Vault...
- All Goblinoids: Aggressive and cruel; penchant for taming or otherwise mastering beasts; an ancient empire; diverse and widespread tribes.
- Bugbears: Largest and burliest; "bullies"; surprisingly stealthy; penchant for theft and assassination.
- Goblins: Most common; small, ill-tempered, and wicked; treacherous.
- Hobgoblins: Bellicose and militaristic; most civilized and intelligent; often rule over other goblins.
I'm going to try to stick to these as my "guidelines", as much as possible. Please keep them in mind with suggestions, as we go along.
A Brief Outline
Phase I - Ability Scores
Phase II-A - Bugbear Racial Features
more as they're added...
My (current) proposed ability scores:
Bugbear: +2 Strength; +2 Constitution or Dexterity
Goblin: +2 Dexterity; +2 Constitution or Charisma
Hobgoblin: +2 Constitution; +2 Intelligence or Charisma
Discussion
Bugbear
I think this is the most straightforward of the three races. Str and Dex are obvious choices, given the fluff, and a good fit. Strength is clearly the best fit for the "primary" ability score. The alternate, however, isn't nearly as clear, and I feel like I'm relying on a process of elimination. Int and Wis really don't have any basis at all (though I feel like you can justify Wis on just about any race - which I would guess is why we see it on so many races from WotC). +Cha could only be justified through their "thuggish" tendencies toward intimidation - I feel that benefits tied directly to Intimidate would fit the concept better (though if someone can make the case, I have to admit I'm really intrigued by the idea of a +Str/Cha Bugbear option).
So I've kind of backed into +Con - but I think it works. Con - like Wis - just seems easy to justify on just about anything (especially given the Half-Elf and Halfling; +Con can apparently just mean "confident/resolved"). But I think it fits particularly well with the Bugbear, and puts them in the same "massive brute" category that the other "big warrior races" seem to fit in (particularly Warforged and Goliaths).
Goblin
I have to admit, I find those scores completely disappointing (it's a Halfling - woo?) - but I think they're kind of just what fits. +Dex is the obvious choice (for the primary, too). However, now that I think about it, I'm not really sure where the +Cha is coming from. Not a lot about Goblins suggest +Cha is a good fit - but I think that's kind of a problem with the race as it stands. Nothing really suggests any abilities beyond Dex (though +Str is just out, if I may say so). Not strongly, anyways.
I can kind of understand the +Cha - it goes with the "sneaky and treacherous" vibe of the race. It helps to make them seem "tricksy" (if I can borrow a silly word). +Con is really just getting "backed into" again - I'm not attached to it at all. I can see +Wis or +Int - Wis for more of a "common sense" feel to the race, or Int for more of a "the clever sort of tricky" kind of vibe. I kind of shy away from +Int, though - it just doesn't "feel" right.
I think there's room to "fill in" the Goblin's fluff, to make some different abilities fit. But at the same time... yeah, I really don't know. I feel like Goblin is easily "the hard one" when it comes to this.
Hobgoblin
Hobbos are tough, for me, because I have to constantly fight against my own urges to make them perfect for the builds I want (in particular, blade or chain warriors of some type). +Dex was one of their traits in 3e, along with +Con - but really, I don't see anything that would suggest Dex even being on the menu in 4e... which makes me sad.
From their descriptions, it's Int that I think is the clearest fit - which is just awesome, given that their original statblock was just Con/Cha. I think +Int fits their "leadership" angle better too - they're organized, and know how to get things done. More or less, I think Hobgoblin "leadership" of other goblins is more of an Int thing than a Cha thing (if that makes sense).
Now, the other stats? I'm having a hard time with them. While I prefer Int over Cha for them, I don't think I can really deny that Cha is a good fit. As I said, I'm partial to +Dex being somewhere in there - but I think the reasons I want it are just insufficient (and better adressed via feats/themes/paragon paths/whatever). +Con has just as much of a history as +Dex, and is more easily justified (given their militaristic focus on training and combat) - which is why I went with it. Wis isn't even an option, really. Str would make a bit of sense, but it's not something emphasized about the race, and I'm not really happy having them as strong as Bugbears (the same could be said for Dex and Goblins, sadly).
As for primary/secondary stats - well, clearly I'm not very settled on anything at all, here, as you can tell from the above. I... don't really know why I went with Con/Int or Cha, as opposed to Int/Con or Cha - I guess it just made sense to me that the "choice" there was "What kind of 'leader' are you?" But again, Int seems to be the one trait of the class that is strongest (at least, that's how I tend to read the fluff here), so making it the primary would make a lot of sense.
Albeit Kingdoms of Kalamar may have made a good Hobgoblin AND Half-Hobgoblin race(s).
For goblins, I really like Wisdom. I might suggest Dex/ Wis or Cha.
Hobgobs look good, though a part of me really wants Cha to be their primary.
I think that, for Bugbears, you should switch to Dex/Str or Con. For one, that nudges out of the possibility for a double-up, and for another, sneakiness is always mentioned, to the point that that's what I think of when I think of Bugbears.
I don't actually mind the double-up - particularly on Str/Con. But, I see your point. My question, though, would be: wouldn't it be better to emphasize "sneakiness" in particular (probably via features), rather than agility in general?
For goblins, I really like Wisdom. I might suggest Dex/ Wis or Cha.
I have to admit that some "metagame" thinking snuck into these. In particular, I was really trying to avoid Dex/Wis (and, in the Hobbos, not particularly trying to avoid Con/Int).
But: I kind of agree. I like Wis for goblins as well. But I don't feel like I have a very good justification for it - do you mind taking a shot at that? (By which I mean, can you give me a satisfying justification for why they should have +Wis?)
Hobgobs look good, though a part of me really wants Cha to be their primary.
Honestly, now that I filled in my thoughts up there, you can probably tell that I'm really "up in the air" about Hobbos. I really don't know what I want to settle on with them. It feels like there is both too much and too little information on them, at the same time.
Cha as a primary, though, is one setup I think I would disagree with at this point. I think I touch on it on the part I edited into my prior post, but the long and short of it is: I think Int is a better fit for them, and more "primary" to how they're portrayed in (what little we have of) 4e's fluff.
Thoughts? (Also: many thanks on any feedback at all - it always seems like getting feedback can be an absolute pain.)
Phase II-A - Bugbear Racial Features
Now, I'm going to break this down into A/B/C, and spread out each race. First up is Bugbears though.
Now, my previous Bugbear (see the thread linked in the first post) had... issues. I was never really satisfied with it - it was always "Done enough" - not really done.
So, that said, I want to get one thing out right away: I am not including, nor considering, the Oversized racial feature (or anything along similar lines). If Goliaths (/Half-Giants) don't get it, frankly, no race should (and no race should anyways - Crimson_Concerto can field that one, if anyone takes issue with it).
Now, here are a few "concepts" I think might be a good jumping off point for features:
- "A Big Bully"
- "Surprisingly Sneaky"
- "Great Sense of Smell"
(Note that I'm not really thinking about the racial power yet - we'll get to all those later.)
"A Big Bully"
Bugbears are pretty strongly described in this manner, and it only seems fitting that they bear some kind of feature tied to it. Now, a racial bonus to Intimidate (as one of their two +2 racial skill bonuses) is fine - it's a good start - but I think we can do a little more.
I really like how the goliath's Powerful Athlete feature conveys the idea of being better at a skill, without falling back on training or flat skill bonuses. I think we can do something similar here, with Intimidate.
The only catch is, like Powerful Athlete, I think it needs to only affect a subset of what the skill can do. In addition to that, I'm still wary of the Intimidate skill in combat. I don't mind it, personally, but I know it bugs a lot of people.
So I'm thinking something like:
Brutish Disposition: When you make an Intimidate check outside of combat, roll twice and use either result.
It's very potent, I know - but I think it may work despite that. I'd love to hear some takes on it.
"Surprisingly Sneaky"
So much of the fluff is devoted to Bugbears being sneaky - just like being "bullies". I think this aspect is kind of a direct parallel to the Intimidate one - a racial +2 bonus is a shoe-in, but something more feels necessary, given how important it is.
Now, here's my one thing: Bugbears may be sneaky, but I don't actually want them to be the most sneaky of the races. Hell, I think Goblins should be just as good at it. That may seem a bit... contradictory, with my previous paragraph, but I tend to read the Bugbear's "sneakiness" as: "surprisingly sneaky (for their size)".
Now, that said, we could do another skill-related feature - but honestly, I'd rather save that for the "bully" aspect and the Intimidate skill. I think we can give some kind of combat bonus under this concept - some way to encourage Bugbears to play sneaky, by given them a bonus when they do it.
Now, I'm really not sure how I should go about that. My first thought was something like this:
Savage Stalker: You gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against targets you are hidden from.
That seems like... well, it doesn't feel right, at all. It's something that any character could use - but which only certain builds will actually use. It would be almost completely useless on a defender, for instance.
Now, we could broaden it's conditions: Just give it whenever you have combat advantage against a target. That's far more common, and something nearly everyone will have easy access to. It might be too much though.
At that point though, I wonder if the +attack is too much - a switch to +2(/4/6 at paragon and epic, respectively) might be better? Maybe? Then again, static damage bonuses tend to get... abused.
Anyways, I like the concept, but I'm not attached to it - any other "sneaky" suggestions?
"Great Sense of Smell"
This may just be a personal thing - I would really like to see Bugbears with the Scent ability - only represented in some way manageable under 4e. I had a feat (two, maybe), that tried to portray the concept in my previous version. Those mechanics might work as a feature, but again, they move into the "modifying skill checks" space, and I'd rather not put more than one of that type of feature on the race (and I'd prefer it to be the feature associated with Intimidate).
So, after playing around a bit (and cutting the long process of elimination and brainstorming down a bit), I'm kind of liking this:
Scent (Aura 2): Any hidden creature that enters the aura or starts its turn within the aura must make a Stealth check to remain hidden from you.
It's... I have no way to really describe it at the moment. To me, it seems fantastic. But I think I may be going loopy at this point, from writing so damn much in this post.
In Conclusion
To summarize, these are my "first draft" of features for the Bugbear.
- Brutish Disposition: When you make an Intimidate check outside of combat, roll twice and use either result.
- Savage Stalker: You gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against targets you are hidden from.
- Scent (Aura 2): Any hidden creature that enters the aura or starts its turn within the aura must make a Stealth check to remain hidden from you.
Also, gives goblinoids a bit of uniqueness to claim as their own, that they've got the only +Str Small race.
I'm pretty ok with the ability scores as they stand, but I had an idea for scent. What if you just make them aware of the presence and location of any creature in the aura. A hidden creature would still be hard to hit, but you'd know roughly were to aim. I'm honestly not sure which one is more powerful or problematic, but it's a possible alternative.
I'm fond of goblins getting +Dex and +Str-or-Cha, actually.
Yeah, I'd considered that too, but it really just doesn't pass my "Whose is bigger?" test.
"Does it make sense that the ___-est example of Race A is as ____ as the ____-est example of Race B."
Or, for +Str Goblins:
"Does it make sense that the strongest example of a goblin is as strong as the strongest example of a Goliath?"
For me, the answer is a resounding No.
I had an idea for scent. What if you just make them aware of the presence and location of any creature in the aura. A hidden creature would still be hard to hit, but you'd know roughly were to aim. I'm honestly not sure which one is more powerful or problematic, but it's a possible alternative.
Y'know, I was going to say "That seems like a straight upgrade to the ability," but I'm not sure that's true.
If I understand you right, you would automatically know the locations of creatures - but they would still be invisible (even if they were just hidden)?
I kind of like that, though I'm not so much a fan of automatic detection. I think it might work okay in combat - but I'm a bit wary of its utility in other circumstances.
Show
Goblin
Average Height: 3’4”-3’8”
Average Weight: 40-55 lb.
Ability Score: +2 Dexterity, +Charisma or +2 Wisdom
Size: Small
Speed: 6
Vision: Low-light
Languages: Common, Goblin
Skill Bonuses: +2 Stealth, +2 Thievery
Cowardly: When you’re bloodied, you gain a +1 racial bonus to your speed.
Devious Scamper: You gain a +2 racial bonus to speed during the first round of an encounter.
Goblin Vigor: You gain a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against disease.
Nimble Step: When you shift, you gain a +1 racial bonus to AC and Reflex until the beginning of your next turn.
Opportunistic Dodge: You have the opportunistic dodge power.
Opportunistic Dodge
You avoid the enemy’s blow and cleverly slink past his defenses.
Encounter
Immediate Reaction Personal
Trigger: An enemy misses you with an attack.
Effect: You can shift 1 square and gain combat advantage against the triggering enemy until the end of your next turn.
Goblin Feats
Deadly Dodge
Prerequisite: Goblin race, opportunistic dodge power
Benefit: When you use your opportunistic dodge racial power, you gain a (feat?) bonus equal to your Dexterity modifier to damage rolls against the triggering enemy until the end of your next turn.
Goblin Weapon Training
Prerequisite: Goblin race
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all one-handed superior weapons with the off-hand property and a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with off-hand weapons.
Quick Feint
Prerequisite: Goblin race, trained in Bluff
Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to gain combat advantage as a minor action.
You gain a +2 feat bonus to Bluff checks.
Speaking of which, while the Ability Score and Bugbear Feature ideas simmer, I'll move on to Goblins.
Phase II-B - Goblin Racial Features
Like the Bugbear, here are a few concepts that I think might serve as good "jumping off points" for racial features.
- "Coward by Nature"
- "Strength in Numbers"
- "Wicked Little Bastard"
"Coward by Nature"
A straightforward idea. First thought is: something that triggers on Bloodied.
Mythril_Sage gives one good example: "When you are bloodied, you gain a +1 racial bonus to your speed."
It's a good take on it, though... it doesn't really feel that cowardly to me. +1 Speed is a fairly aggressive feature - even if only when bloodied.
I was considering something like: "The first time you are bloodied during an encounter, you can shift 3 squares as a free action." In my prior version, I offered a feat that let the goblin shake off marks when he shifted to a square not adjacent to any other creature - we could include that here, in some fashion. Or perhaps restrict the shift so that you cannot end it adjacent to an enemy.
Maybe use the name Coward's Retreat?
The Githzerai's Shifting Fortunes feature is what I'm comparing to here, mostly. That feature lets the Githzerai shift 3 when they use their Second Wind. I think that trigger matches up well to "first bloodied".
EDIT: Actually, I think the "and not adjacent to an enemy" limitation - while flavorful - doesn't really do anything but limit which classes it's viable with. I'm thinking cutting the limitation is a "duh".
"Strength in Numbers"
This isn't an idea unique to goblins - not by a long shot. Something should be easy to come up with, and should fit well. I'd like to avoid something keyed off of flanking, or Aid Another, though. No strong reason for that - just a preference. I had a feat for this before, that could easily switch to a feature.
Safety in Numbers: When you use a Second Wind or Total Defense action, you gain an additional bonus to all defenses equal to the number of allies adjacent to you.
Something more aggressive might also be viable - after all, they're supposed to be more dangerous in large numbers. Maybe something like: You gain a racial bonus to saves against Fear effects and damage from critical hits. This bonus is equal to the number of allies within 5 squares of you (to a maximum of +5).
That seems like it would come up rarely enough to offset the (slight, but noticable) amount of extra time it may take to check the distance of each ally.
EDIT: An after-the-fact thought: I like the bonus that scales by the number of allies, but I want to point out that its power varies based on the size of the party. I'm not sure how folks would feel about that. I'm not sure how I feel about that. On one hand, we have plenty of material (damn near all of it) that is balanced around a mostly-full party (4-6 characters, more or less). On the other hand, I don't think a feature that is useless without nearby allies is a good idea.
What about, instead:
You gain a +2 racial bonus to saves against Fear effects and to damage from critical hits. If at least three allies are within 5 squares of you, this bonus increases to +5.
?
"Wicked Little Bastard"
This idea - focusing on the "wickedness" and "treacherousness" of goblins - might actually get sufficiently covered under "Strength in Numbers", if we go the more aggressive route there. Still, might as well brainstorm, right? Something that keys off of combat advantage would make sense - but really, I think like it might be too much. Really, I guess I'm just tossing this idea out there - I don't really have an idea for it at the moment.
In Conclusion
To summarize, these are my "first draft" of features for the Goblin.
- Coward's Retreat: The first time you are bloodied during an encounter, you can shift 3 squares to a square not adjacent to any enemies as a free action.
- Strength in Numbers: You gain a racial bonus to saves against Fear effects and damage from critical hits. This bonus is equal to the number of allies within 5 squares of you (to a maximum of +5).
1.) Savage Stalker (Bugbear): - This feature seems way too limited - but at the same time, the race already has two fairly significant features, and will have a racial power. It's a good bonus, that will rarely come up - except for a few particular builds. I... Hm. I just don't know. I also don't know if it could just be removed - or if I should replace it with something else.
2.) Coward's Retreat (Goblin): - After mulling it over, I am removing the "not adjacent to an enemy" clause. It's just unduly limiting on the feature.
3.) Strength in Numbers (Goblin): - I really have no idea what I want to do with this. I think a "number of allies" based aspect would be very neat, and very thematic - but it doesn't feel like very good design.
Maybe I should lay out some alternative mechanics...
- V1(as-is now): You gain a racial bonus to saves against Fear effects and damage from critical hits. This bonus is equal to the number of allies within 5 squares of you (to a maximum of +5).
- V2 (preferred change, at the moment): You gain a +2 racial bonus to saves against Fear effects and to damage from critical hits. If at least three allies are within 5 squares of you, this bonus increases to +5.
- V3 (CA + Fear): You gain combat advantage against any enemy adjacent to two or more allies. In addition, if at least three allies are within 5 squares of you, you gain a +5 bonus to saves against Fear effects.
- V4 (Damagexallies): When you have combat advantage against an enemy, you gain a bonus to damage rolls against that enemy equal to the number of allies within 5 squares of you (to a maximum of +5).
- V5 (Damage+allies): You gain a +2 racial bonus on damage rolls against enemies you have combat advantage against. If at least three allies are within 5 squares of you, this bonus increases to +5.
Meh, just tossing ideas out.
My thoughts on ability scores
Goblins: Dex, Wis or Con
Goblin ability score explained: Dex -well not much neads said there we know that reason; -- Con - the little buggers r liek cockroaches swarming in numbers and just don't seam to die, they get picked on non stop by larger goblinoids and makes sence that they would have built up a resistence to such thrashings.
I saved wisdom for last but here it is- Goblins are picked on often and by nature are the weakest of there kind, so where others focus on tactics and brute power goblins have learned to thinck fast, the quick Wit of the goblins have saved them from many would be deaths at the hands of there larger bropthren and also contributes to there crafty sneaky ways. Personaly I have always sean goblins as perceptive and quick witted perhaps not the birhgtest nor the strongest but deadly sneaky little buggers who become a huge pain in numbers anyhows I forget the rest so leave this post with just the idea for goblins since there my fave of the goblinoids anyhows
If you saw an angry giant heading your way, I think you'd run too!
Goblins are really canny actually, they're likely to try and con you if they think it is to their advantage.
Hence that's why I strongly suggest Wisdom and Charisma as secondaries to Dexterity. It allows them a lot of flavorfully appropriate classes.
Now really, who wouldn't want to play a ninja/assassin goblin?
The little backstabbers aren't cowards if the deck is in their favor.Thoughts on Phase I - Ability Scores:
I agree fully with the Bugbear as you have it - I've always seen them as "enforcers" - plenty of brute strength and then either really tough or really sneaky.
For Goblins, I would propose +DEX/+WIS or +CHA. Dexterity is the obvious choice for them, as they are universally described as sneaky, quick, and very agile. As you said, the Charisma bonus does help them come across as "tricksy" (loved that btw), which to me is an important part of the Goblin race - they aren't just brutes or mindless goons, but have a sort of cunning and street-savvy way about them. I see them as kind of grifters, always trying to gain your trust, since they can't just overwhelm you physically. Which builds into the Wisdom bonus - they know they're weak, they know they die pretty easily, but most importantly they know how to survive, and that knowing how to survive is not an Intelligence or Constitution attribute, but a Wisdom attribute. In further support of the Wisdom bonus, thematically 4E goblin parties always have a shaman or something like that, and those are always Wisdom based, thematically at least.
For the Hobgoblins, I recommend making Intelligence their primary, for a +INT/+CON or +CHA. In this edition, Hobgoblins are more often found as the leaders and the cunning behind the goblin races, and the ones closest to having their own civilization. This is usually the primary way they are described, and adding to that their being the tacticians in combat groups, I would have to endorse Intelligence being their primary stat. Constitution makes sense for the reasons you stated - the military background and being relatively tough or resilient (comparatively). I say charisma for the same reasons as the Goblins - that kind of tricksy/grifter/gain-your-trust-before-stabbing-you-in-the-back vibe I get from the race.
Thoughts on Phase II - Racial Features:
Bugbears:
"A Big Bully" - While I like what you did with that, I've always thought that certain races would be better suited to using strength than charisma. Since I picture Bugbears as filling the roll of the giant thugs with the crime boss, or the burly bouncer outside of a bar who are intimidating based on their size and strength, rather than any type of personality attribute. My suggestion is that instead of rolling twice for intimidate checks, allow players to substitute a STR bonus in place of a CHA bonus for the roll:
Brutish Disposition: You may replace your Charisma bonus with your Strength bonus when making Intimidate checks.
"Surprisingly Sneaky" - Perhaps something along the lines of the rogue's surprise round power? A bonus to attack during a surprise round sounds fair, is not too powerful (based on frequency of it happening). Maybe they don't take penalties to Sneak when wearing armor that would normally give penalties? Though that is more limited on class or situation than anything...
"Great Sense of Smell" - I've always thought that smell was highly underrated in this game, so this attribute makes me incredibly happy. The direction I'd take it in is a bit different though. I would say that the great sense of smell should help make up for a lack of sight, such that in darkness or when blinded the penalty to actions should be less severe.
Got your scent: When blinded, you only take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
Goblins:
"Coward by Nature" - I like your direction on this, but not the name. Also, I agree that saying "not adjacent to an enemy" is unduly limiting and potentially hazardous to a class. However, if you changed it to "closer to an ally," you would still get the "coward" flavor, and it would (theoretically) be ok with defender classes - you are running to an ally for support, but you're still in between the enemy and the ally. And to mitigate the limitation of direction, let them move while bloody, instead of just when they are first bloodied. After all, it's an encounter power, they can only use it once, right?
Pragmatic retreat: You gain the encounter power "Pragmatic Retreat"
Encounter power Pragmatic Retreat Move Action
Requirement: You are bloodied
Action: You shift up to three squares in the direction of an ally.
"Strength in Numbers" - What if instead of counting how many allies are in proximity, they just get bonuses for assisting/being assisted by allies?
Stronger together: Allies gain a +2 bonus to skill rolls made to aid you. As well, you gain +2 to skill rolls made to aid another.
"Wicked Little Bastard" - I don't particularly like this attribute, as it thematically implies you are playing an "evil" aligned goblin no matter what. That said, it could very easily be some bonus to stealth or thievery. Maybe a "plays dirty" kind of power, like when you crit you can slow the target of your attack (hamstring them), or give them a -2 penalty to attack or defenses (kick them in the groin). I don't really have a feature ready made for this one, just the above suggestions.
Hobgoblins:
Hobgoblins should definitely retain the monster power that gives them the +2 bonus to AC while adjacent to allies, IMO, since that is a defining trait of the monster version of the race. It also gives them kind of a "Roman Legionnaire" type of feel, which plays up the military flavor.
Not sure what the other two features would be, but one should play up the "masters of the goblinoid race" fluff