Government Sanctioned Thieves' Guild - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Government Sanctioned Thieves' Guild

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Keiichi_m
Feb 24, 2009 2:58:51 So I was designing and fleshing out guilds in my world when I came to the Thieves’ Guild, I wanted all of my guilds to be government approved and global, so this one struck me as a bit of a challenge, this is what the result was. P.E.A.C.H.

The Guild master is always a secret, so the government can't do much about him. Governments employ thieves for some work that they cannot do on their own. 15% of annual income made by the thieves’ guild is divided and sent to the governments of the world. Because of the above the government allows them to function without harassment because they get free money and access to highly trained rogues, for a modest sum, when needed.

The Thieves Guild keeps crime in line in that they can commit certain crimes (The are not authorized for arson or other such crimes but can steal and kill, murder is for assassination missions) without repercussion so long as they are not caught. Any crime committed by licensed members of the guild without authorization is dealt with by the thieves’ guild and not the law, they are usually harsher by far. The Guild makes life exceedingly difficult for any known thieves outside of the guild until they join (as a global organization they have the man power to do this) as part of the agreement with governments.

Other then this it functions like any other guild with membership benefits and so forth. I usually like to run a fairly realistic game, however, I understand that this really would not work in a real world setting, so skip those arguments, I'm having fun with a fantasy setting that needs no anchor in reality.
#2
nezumi45
Feb 24, 2009 3:28:39 Well actually it would work in realistic settings and has allegedly been practiced in real life. I wont go into politics and such however I have been in games where this idea has been the case and it does add to the story and the roleplay side of things,i.e. its far harder for the paladin to bring an assassin to justice when the government is backing the assassin in the frist place. Adding a mafia quailty to a guild can lead pcs out on sidequests and plot hooks and if it adds to your games feel go with it but i would advise caution a little as with this idea npc stereotypes can be a minefield.
#3
rambaldi
Feb 24, 2009 3:45:26 *steal*

Possibly different governments sponsor different factions all viaing for power and the standard political struggle?
Or different governments sponsor different guilds altogether, always looking to gain more control over them.
#4
Vatras
Feb 24, 2009 5:58:21 (I am not comfortable with global guilds (too much like high-tech megacorporations) and prefer them on a local basis.)

Your idea can work, but there will still be frictions between any government and criminals - doing things against the law is something which no government (who wrote the book after all) can like. Governments also have the job to protect their citizens, that is why they were founded in the first place. So we have a fundamental conflict of interests here.
In addition, almost every other guild - who works honestly for a living - has by definition to be an enemy of the thieves. Since there are vastly more of those guilds than thieves they will use their leverage and influence to get rid of them.
While a government might sometimes want illegal jobs done, under those circumstances it is better to found their own secret service, who is also loyal to those in power and much more reliable than thieves.
To make such a guild viable, they must have something which keeps the others from getting rid of them. It can't be something too powerful either, or the thieves would be the government by then.

The only known example of an "official" thieves guild is found in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books, and even there it is actually under the thumb of the patriarch (like everyone else).
#5
mufflon
Feb 24, 2009 10:58:35
The only known example of an "official" thieves guild is found in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books.

No, it's far from the only example.
#6
Neutronium_Dragon
Feb 24, 2009 11:35:23 A global organization is unlikely to work, both due to logistics, and due to the fact that a government isn't likely to sponsor or abet an organization like that whose loyalties are not to it - or worse, whose loyalties can easily be bought off by another one.
#7
skio
Feb 24, 2009 14:30:31 I have done something similar to my world. Parts of it are ruled by a council of 13 global guilds, one of them is the Guild of Shadows.

The Guild consists of rogues, spies, thugs and assassins. Their illegal activities are unknown to the rest of the Council, and the other Guilds despise them, but keep them in the Council because they prove themselves to be invaluable information gatherers in times of need. And, since the Council is constantly at odds with the Glorious Brotherhood, an organization of nobles and kings that want to take authority off the people's hands, the Shadows' contribution is important.

There is, however no excuses for members arrested for illegal activities. The Guild protects its members, unless their crimes go against the stability of the Council.
#8
Keiichi_m
Feb 24, 2009 19:56:26
A global organization is unlikely to work, both due to logistics, and due to the fact that a government isn't likely to sponsor or abet an organization like that whose loyalties are not to it - or worse, whose loyalties can easily be bought off by another one.

I had actually already considered this and I am trying to find a way for it to work, perhaps it's city based factions that all report to a central guild or something along those lines or one of the largest guilds already in power and governments are trying to control it (Though that would go against the basis of the guild paying off the governments so most likely not.) but I do want it to work on a global scale, any suggestions would be welcome.
#9
the-antediluvian
Feb 24, 2009 20:18:45 I think one of the best ways to do it, would be to have the guild as a two-faced kind of set up, like already suggested. "Officially," the thieves guild isn't a thieves guild at all... it's an information brokering, make things happen, accept any job guild.

The other guilds don't like it, but they need it. Governments need it. They all use it, because this guild is the best at what it does, and this part of the business makes good money. But it's also a thieves guild by nature; members and groups scheme for their own interests, rob and kill who they need to... do what thieves do.

Sometimes a member gets caught. The guild weighs the options; pay his bail, spring him from jail, or let him hang. Eitherway, their official stance should be that "crime is wrong," and that brings in the whole "don't let non-sanctioned members go around stealing, murdering, and generally messing stuff up" ideal. So if someone comes into town, starts thieving, the guild shows up, strong-arm a little, and show him who's who.

Governments sanction it because they're the best at what they do, officially... and unofficially (keeping under the radar, that is.)
#10
the_orius
Feb 24, 2009 20:38:20 just go for a more official blind eye tthe whole thing.

They are allowed to operate, and officially they are a information source.

unofficially they keep other crime down to to axing the competition and while not known to the general public they are allowed to operate and their business fronts are never bothered, but if they are pulling and kind of job its all bets are off. If they are caught the government cant let them go, because that would destabalize the entire idea of laws in the first place.

Hence it makes the orginization that elite; they have mega backing and the government lets them do as they please; but they have to be super god beause if they attract attention they could get caught in the act.

and thats bad for everyones buisness, including there own.
#11
Keiichi_m
Feb 24, 2009 21:08:16 I like the blind eye bit, that should work really well.
#12
waegmund
Feb 26, 2009 8:50:47 You need to be really careful that a guild of "legal thieves" doesn't end up a lot like the Ankh Morpork Guild of Thieves in Terry Pratchett's Discworld, unless you have a somewhat tongue in cheek campaign.
#13
koradzi
Feb 26, 2009 15:15:28 Personally, I would just go ahead and run with the Discworld concept. The government has decided that crime is inevitable, so you might as well have organized crime; regulating crime allows the city fathers to keep it under control; criminals do a better job of punishing unauthorized crime than law enforcement ever did; if the guild gets out of hand, the city fathers know where to find its leaders. Not all that far-fetched, tbh. :P

Put some more thought into this over dinner. To my thinking, a government-sanctioned Thieves' Guild is going to end up becoming the Ankh-Morpork TG pretty much no matter how you spin it; if you really wanna go that route, I'd recommend just going ahead and looking to Terry Prachett for inspiration. If you're gonna steal, you might as well steal from the best, as they say. If you're not married to the idea of the Guild actually being government-subsidized, I can rattle off a few ideas for a legal (or quasi-legal) Thieves' Guild.

1. Thieves' Guild a la Film Noir
The Guild isn't exactly legal - but the government is corrupt. The Guild has simply paid off enough of the right people to get the law to look the other way.

2. Thieves' Guild as Mafia
It's not a "Thieves' Guild," per se; just a perfectly legal organization of businessmen. Most of their money comes from legitimate enterprise - just don't try to muscle in on their territory. Of course, the Guild's leader insists that the rumors that he's connected to any secret criminal organization are fraudulent and slanderous.

3. Thieves' Guild as Old-School KGB
It isn't the Thieves' Guild, it's the Agency: the secret police, spies, and information network. The organization is allowed to keep secrets, even from the people who they report to - no surprise, then, if they're not exactly on the up-and-up.

4. Thieves' Guild as Morag Tong
The God of Thievery is an accepted member of the modern pantheon, and his followers form a time-honored and highly traditional religious organization. They have highly ritualized rules of engagement, and only strike people who refuse to pay "protection" money to them, which is seen as a form of tithing. Being a member of the Thieves' Guild may actually be a respectable, or even honorable, profession.

There's a few thoughts off the top of my head. Honestly, though, I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing. It's a fantasy setting - the players can suspend their disbelief.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Keiichi_m Feb 24, 2009 2:58:51	So I was designing and fleshing out guilds in my world when I came to the Thieves’ Guild, I wanted all of my guilds to be government approved and global, so this one struck me as a bit of a challenge, this is what the result was. P.E.A.C.H. The Guild master is always a secret, so the government can't do much about him. Governments employ thieves for some work that they cannot do on their own. 15% of annual income made by the thieves’ guild is divided and sent to the governments of the world. Because of the above the government allows them to function without harassment because they get free money and access to highly trained rogues, for a modest sum, when needed. The Thieves Guild keeps crime in line in that they can commit certain crimes (The are not authorized for arson or other such crimes but can steal and kill, murder is for assassination missions) without repercussion so long as they are not caught. Any crime committed by licensed members of the guild without authorization is dealt with by the thieves’ guild and not the law, they are usually harsher by far. The Guild makes life exceedingly difficult for any known thieves outside of the guild until they join (as a global organization they have the man power to do this) as part of the agreement with governments. Other then this it functions like any other guild with membership benefits and so forth. I usually like to run a fairly realistic game, however, I understand that this really would not work in a real world setting, so skip those arguments, I'm having fun with a fantasy setting that needs no anchor in reality.
#2 nezumi45 Feb 24, 2009 3:28:39	Well actually it would work in realistic settings and has allegedly been practiced in real life. I wont go into politics and such however I have been in games where this idea has been the case and it does add to the story and the roleplay side of things,i.e. its far harder for the paladin to bring an assassin to justice when the government is backing the assassin in the frist place. Adding a mafia quailty to a guild can lead pcs out on sidequests and plot hooks and if it adds to your games feel go with it but i would advise caution a little as with this idea npc stereotypes can be a minefield.
#3 rambaldi Feb 24, 2009 3:45:26	steal Possibly different governments sponsor different factions all viaing for power and the standard political struggle? Or different governments sponsor different guilds altogether, always looking to gain more control over them.
#4 Vatras Feb 24, 2009 5:58:21	(I am not comfortable with global guilds (too much like high-tech megacorporations) and prefer them on a local basis.) Your idea can work, but there will still be frictions between any government and criminals - doing things against the law is something which no government (who wrote the book after all) can like. Governments also have the job to protect their citizens, that is why they were founded in the first place. So we have a fundamental conflict of interests here. In addition, almost every other guild - who works honestly for a living - has by definition to be an enemy of the thieves. Since there are vastly more of those guilds than thieves they will use their leverage and influence to get rid of them. While a government might sometimes want illegal jobs done, under those circumstances it is better to found their own secret service, who is also loyal to those in power and much more reliable than thieves. To make such a guild viable, they must have something which keeps the others from getting rid of them. It can't be something too powerful either, or the thieves would be the government by then. The only known example of an "official" thieves guild is found in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books, and even there it is actually under the thumb of the patriarch (like everyone else).
#5 mufflon Feb 24, 2009 10:58:35	The only known example of an "official" thieves guild is found in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. No, it's far from the only example.
#6 Neutronium_Dragon Feb 24, 2009 11:35:23	A global organization is unlikely to work, both due to logistics, and due to the fact that a government isn't likely to sponsor or abet an organization like that whose loyalties are not to it - or worse, whose loyalties can easily be bought off by another one.
#7 skio Feb 24, 2009 14:30:31	I have done something similar to my world. Parts of it are ruled by a council of 13 global guilds, one of them is the Guild of Shadows. The Guild consists of rogues, spies, thugs and assassins. Their illegal activities are unknown to the rest of the Council, and the other Guilds despise them, but keep them in the Council because they prove themselves to be invaluable information gatherers in times of need. And, since the Council is constantly at odds with the Glorious Brotherhood, an organization of nobles and kings that want to take authority off the people's hands, the Shadows' contribution is important. There is, however no excuses for members arrested for illegal activities. The Guild protects its members, unless their crimes go against the stability of the Council.
#8 Keiichi_m Feb 24, 2009 19:56:26	A global organization is unlikely to work, both due to logistics, and due to the fact that a government isn't likely to sponsor or abet an organization like that whose loyalties are not to it - or worse, whose loyalties can easily be bought off by another one. I had actually already considered this and I am trying to find a way for it to work, perhaps it's city based factions that all report to a central guild or something along those lines or one of the largest guilds already in power and governments are trying to control it (Though that would go against the basis of the guild paying off the governments so most likely not.) but I do want it to work on a global scale, any suggestions would be welcome.
#9 the-antediluvian Feb 24, 2009 20:18:45	I think one of the best ways to do it, would be to have the guild as a two-faced kind of set up, like already suggested. "Officially," the thieves guild isn't a thieves guild at all... it's an information brokering, make things happen, accept any job guild. The other guilds don't like it, but they need it. Governments need it. They all use it, because this guild is the best at what it does, and this part of the business makes good money. But it's also a thieves guild by nature; members and groups scheme for their own interests, rob and kill who they need to... do what thieves do. Sometimes a member gets caught. The guild weighs the options; pay his bail, spring him from jail, or let him hang. Eitherway, their official stance should be that "crime is wrong," and that brings in the whole "don't let non-sanctioned members go around stealing, murdering, and generally messing stuff up" ideal. So if someone comes into town, starts thieving, the guild shows up, strong-arm a little, and show him who's who. Governments sanction it because they're the best at what they do, officially... and unofficially (keeping under the radar, that is.)
#10 the_orius Feb 24, 2009 20:38:20	just go for a more official blind eye tthe whole thing. They are allowed to operate, and officially they are a information source. unofficially they keep other crime down to to axing the competition and while not known to the general public they are allowed to operate and their business fronts are never bothered, but if they are pulling and kind of job its all bets are off. If they are caught the government cant let them go, because that would destabalize the entire idea of laws in the first place. Hence it makes the orginization that elite; they have mega backing and the government lets them do as they please; but they have to be super god beause if they attract attention they could get caught in the act. and thats bad for everyones buisness, including there own.
#11 Keiichi_m Feb 24, 2009 21:08:16	I like the blind eye bit, that should work really well.
#12 waegmund Feb 26, 2009 8:50:47	You need to be really careful that a guild of "legal thieves" doesn't end up a lot like the Ankh Morpork Guild of Thieves in Terry Pratchett's Discworld, unless you have a somewhat tongue in cheek campaign.
#13 koradzi Feb 26, 2009 15:15:28	Personally, I would just go ahead and run with the Discworld concept. The government has decided that crime is inevitable, so you might as well have organized crime; regulating crime allows the city fathers to keep it under control; criminals do a better job of punishing unauthorized crime than law enforcement ever did; if the guild gets out of hand, the city fathers know where to find its leaders. Not all that far-fetched, tbh. :P Put some more thought into this over dinner. To my thinking, a government-sanctioned Thieves' Guild is going to end up becoming the Ankh-Morpork TG pretty much no matter how you spin it; if you really wanna go that route, I'd recommend just going ahead and looking to Terry Prachett for inspiration. If you're gonna steal, you might as well steal from the best, as they say. If you're not married to the idea of the Guild actually being government-subsidized, I can rattle off a few ideas for a legal (or quasi-legal) Thieves' Guild. 1. Thieves' Guild a la Film Noir The Guild isn't exactly legal - but the government is corrupt. The Guild has simply paid off enough of the right people to get the law to look the other way. 2. Thieves' Guild as Mafia It's not a "Thieves' Guild," per se; just a perfectly legal organization of businessmen. Most of their money comes from legitimate enterprise - just don't try to muscle in on their territory. Of course, the Guild's leader insists that the rumors that he's connected to any secret criminal organization are fraudulent and slanderous. 3. Thieves' Guild as Old-School KGB It isn't the Thieves' Guild, it's the Agency: the secret police, spies, and information network. The organization is allowed to keep secrets, even from the people who they report to - no surprise, then, if they're not exactly on the up-and-up. 4. Thieves' Guild as Morag Tong The God of Thievery is an accepted member of the modern pantheon, and his followers form a time-honored and highly traditional religious organization. They have highly ritualized rules of engagement, and only strike people who refuse to pay "protection" money to them, which is seen as a form of tithing. Being a member of the Thieves' Guild may actually be a respectable, or even honorable, profession. There's a few thoughts off the top of my head. Honestly, though, I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing. It's a fantasy setting - the players can suspend their disbelief.