Grab Rules updated for Grabbing-Style Weapons (proposal) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Grab Rules updated for Grabbing-Style Weapons (proposal)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
severion1
Feb 20, 2010 15:00:45 Update to Basic Grab Rule (w/ grabbing weapon)
(1) Grabbing: a new weapon property that applies to the following weapons: man-catcher, whip, net & lasso
(2) A grabbing weapon can be substituted for a free hand in order to perform a standard action 'grab' attempt.
(3) Some grabbing weapons have reach (man-catcher, whip & lasso). While subjecting an opponent to forced movement via the grab, you may forego moving one square and pull your opponent one square closer. If either you or the subject of the grab is forcibly moved so that you are seperated by more distance than the specified weapon reach, the grab is ended.
(4) Man-catchers are unique. When subjecting an opponent to forced movement, they allow the user to slide a grabbed opponent within the reach of the weapon instead of pulling them. While moving a grabbed opponent, a character wielding a man-catcher may forego moving a square and still slide their opponent one square within the reach of the weapon (same strength vs. fortitude attack applies in order to make the attempt).
(5) While using a weapon with the grabbing property in an active grab, that weapon is not available for attack while the grab is sustained. The exception to this is the man-catcher. When using a man-catcher, the wielder may continue to subject the grabbed opponent to attacks with his/her weapon. However, the man-catcher would not be available for attacks on other opponents till the grab ends.

Man-Catcher: Superior two-handed melee weapon
Category: Superior Melee
Prof.: +2
Damage: 1d4
Price: 20gp
Group: Polearm
Properties: Reach, Grabbing

Lasso/Lariat: Superior two-handed range weapon
Category: Superior Range
Prof.: +2
Damage: 0
Range: 2/4
Price: 5 gp
Group: Heavy Thrown, Grabbing, Reach 4 (heavy thrown because they're not designed to be thrown quickly or in multiples, like light thrown weapons; reach 4 because the reach of the weapon equals it's extreme range).

Training:
With training in one of these superior weapons (via the relevant training feat), grabbed opponents suffer a -2 to attempts to escape grabs with the weapons. This bonus increases based on level (-4 at 11th level; -6 at 21st level). This penalty does not stack with the penalties already described in the Net Trap power or the Entangling Whip power. The penalty is designed to reflect the increased leverage you gain by applying one of these weapons to a grabbed opponent. To balance this, training in one-hand free technique should provide a +1 bonus to attack for standard action grab attempts and a +1 to attack toward any power that produces a grab effect. This bonus also would increase based on level (+2 at 11th level; +3 at 21st).

Applying a grabbing weapon to a power with a grab effect
Existing requirements stated in power descriptions are not overridden (e.g. the free hand requirement described for the Brawler build in Martial Powers 2). These powers are designed for particular builds and the advantages of selecting these builds would be impacted if grabbing weapons were an allowed substitution for existing requirements.* In the future, builds specific to using grabbing weapons might be created. One that immediately comes to mind that's not present yet is a "Retiarius" build. For those who don't know, the retiarius was a style of gladiatorial combat that involved the use of a net and trident combination. This could be a new build for the fighter OR designed as an entirely new class around the concept of a Martial Controller.

*- the one caveat to this is the Brawler build could be amended so that powers that explicitly generated grabs with the one-hand requirement would now allow grabbing weapons as an alternative (I'm a bit torn at this point about whether this is a workable solution).

Pulling an opponent from a mount
Grabbed opponents who are mounted (*) must make a saving throw to avoid being dismounted as long as the grab is sustained.
   Lower than 10: Failure. You are dismounted and fall prone in an open space within reach of your opponent or that opponent's grabbing weapon and adjacent to the mount (your choice from the spaces available). If no spaces are available, the dismount result is avoided.
   10 or higher: Success. You remain in the saddle and are not knocked prone or dismounted.

*- There might be some case-by-case interpretation of what the effects of the grab would be while the opponent is mounted. It's possible the attacker would 'stick' to the oppenent as the mount moves around till he/she pulls the opponent from the mount (at which time standard rules would apply) - especially if the mount is significantly larger than the attacker.

#2
severion1
Feb 20, 2010 21:14:41 Considerations for a Martial Controller class (brainstorming)
(just some ideas to throw out there)

(1) I believe the character of such a class would be that a martial controller would operate mainly from the midst of combat, utilizing his weapons, fighting style and tactics to maneuver his opponents around the battlefield. This is opposed to most controllers out there, who typically operate from range. For this reason, I'd think their primary attributes would be dexterity, constitution and wisdom. They'd need dexterity to maneuver quickly and resolve their attacks, constitution to survive close quarters combat, and wisdom to improvise on the battlefield.

(2) I think some martial controllers might be particularly adept at leveraging different types of combat terrain. I could see powers that would temporarily or permanently change squares of terrain to other kinds of terrain (maybe changing a couple of squares of difficult terrain into hindering terrain), powers that added terrain features (throwing obstacles in an opponents way), or that added new temporary or permanent effects to certain spaces (maybe adding/removing cover). They would be adept at using caltrops, marbles, slippery oil/grease, quickly setting traps, etc. They'd use smoke bombs, flash grenades, flash-bangs, etc. to affect concealment. They'd be good at communicating on the battlefield - passing information to allies about terrain to lend benefits to overcoming obstacles.

(3) Other martial controllers might be adept at using grabbing weapons or similar weapons designed to impede or affect an opponent's progress/activity. These martial controllers would have attacks designed to set up opponents for their allies to finish and would be more adept at affecting/disabling a single opponent than counteracting groups of enemies.

(4) Martial controllers would be slippery characters, adept at escapes and aiding escapes, helping allies with saving throws, and performing aid-related actions for allies more effectively than other characters, etc.

#3
severion1
Feb 21, 2010 23:58:18 If the Brawler build were amended to account for grappling weapons, these would be the powers that effect grabs that would be most likely affected. There are plenty of other powers that require one hand free that can be best left as they are to maintain the integrity of the Brawler build.

    - Grappling Strike (lvl 1 at will)
    - Bash and Pinion (lvl 1 encounter)
    - Seize and Stab (lvl 1 daily)
    - Stranglehold (lvl 13 encounter)
    - Relentless Headlock (lvl 15 daily)
    - Trollclaw Grip (lvl 23 encounter)
    - Hold at Bay (lvl 25 daily)
    - Wrenching Assault (lvl 27 encounter) - no hand free means opponent's disarmed weapon would drop to the ground.
    - Neck Snap (lvl 29 daily)

On the one hand, I can see an argument to leave the Brawler as/is. On the other, the focus fo the build is on grabbing and it's a bit redundant to consider an entirely new build angled towards grabbing that just makes the change for allowing grabbing weapons. If we want to get technical, I think a number of the Brawler blinding abilities could also be allowed (retiariaus fighters were known for setting up attacks with their nets to blind their opponents) - but then that lessens the advantages which I think the designers were seeking to encourage a style that kept one hand free. There's plenty of other powers available beyond the Brawler selection that by just making this one amendment to the build, you make the build more flexible and open up some design options that together with the grab proposal above, you should get the best of both worlds and not make things unbalanced.

/shrug I'm just brainstorming here. I'd love some thoughts, feedback and/or considered suggestions if anyone has any feelings on the matter or any other of the stuff I've discussed. Do you guys like it all, like some of it, hate it, etc.?

#4
severion1
Mar 02, 2010 16:47:16 I recently tossed some of these ideas around with a friend of mine who's DM'ing a new 4th ed. campaign for our group. He had some good feedback which I'd like to share here.

The main house rule that he's running is that no house rule shall override the Character Builder. His perspective is that the rules w/i the CB are very carefully balanced (much like well-written code) and that any changes must be very carefully considered so that they don't introduce unwanted 'bugs'. I appreciate this as it filters my ideas through a nice dose of hard-edged skeptical objectivism.

Here's what we decided after chatting. Grabbing with a 'grabbing' style weapon would only be allowed as a standard action attack. We'd forego any modifiers ala those I suggested above due to training. My character is using a net. The use of the net will be modified by the following proviso:

Grabbing with the net: any failed grab attack that involves the net involves letting go of the net and it ending up in the square of your opponent. Any successful grab that is ended except by failing to sustain the grab means letting go of the net and it ending up in the square of your opponent. Retrieving the net from an unoccupied adjacent square is a minor action. Retrieving the net from an occupied square provokes an attack of opportunity with combat advantage.

It's possible one might apply a similar rule to other grabbing weapons, but this one is simple and works nicely for the net (it also fits well with the historical application of the weapon, which pleases a simulationist like myself). This is especially nice because it doesn't conflict with our house rule that no house rules shall conflict with the output from the Character Builder. It adds a bit more flexibility in the use of the net w/o affecting individual powers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 severion1 Feb 20, 2010 15:00:45	Update to Basic Grab Rule (w/ grabbing weapon) (1) Grabbing: a new weapon property that applies to the following weapons: man-catcher, whip, net & lasso (2) A grabbing weapon can be substituted for a free hand in order to perform a standard action 'grab' attempt. (3) Some grabbing weapons have reach (man-catcher, whip & lasso). While subjecting an opponent to forced movement via the grab, you may forego moving one square and pull your opponent one square closer. If either you or the subject of the grab is forcibly moved so that you are seperated by more distance than the specified weapon reach, the grab is ended. (4) Man-catchers are unique. When subjecting an opponent to forced movement, they allow the user to slide a grabbed opponent within the reach of the weapon instead of pulling them. While moving a grabbed opponent, a character wielding a man-catcher may forego moving a square and still slide their opponent one square within the reach of the weapon (same strength vs. fortitude attack applies in order to make the attempt). (5) While using a weapon with the grabbing property in an active grab, that weapon is not available for attack while the grab is sustained. The exception to this is the man-catcher. When using a man-catcher, the wielder may continue to subject the grabbed opponent to attacks with his/her weapon. However, the man-catcher would not be available for attacks on other opponents till the grab ends. Man-Catcher: Superior two-handed melee weapon Category: Superior Melee Prof.: +2 Damage: 1d4 Price: 20gp Group: Polearm Properties: Reach, Grabbing Lasso/Lariat: Superior two-handed range weapon Category: Superior Range Prof.: +2 Damage: 0 Range: 2/4 Price: 5 gp Group: Heavy Thrown, Grabbing, Reach 4 (heavy thrown because they're not designed to be thrown quickly or in multiples, like light thrown weapons; reach 4 because the reach of the weapon equals it's extreme range). Training: With training in one of these superior weapons (via the relevant training feat), grabbed opponents suffer a -2 to attempts to escape grabs with the weapons. This bonus increases based on level (-4 at 11th level; -6 at 21st level). This penalty does not stack with the penalties already described in the Net Trap power or the Entangling Whip power. The penalty is designed to reflect the increased leverage you gain by applying one of these weapons to a grabbed opponent. To balance this, training in one-hand free technique should provide a +1 bonus to attack for standard action grab attempts and a +1 to attack toward any power that produces a grab effect. This bonus also would increase based on level (+2 at 11th level; +3 at 21st). Applying a grabbing weapon to a power with a grab effect Existing requirements stated in power descriptions are not overridden (e.g. the free hand requirement described for the Brawler build in Martial Powers 2). These powers are designed for particular builds and the advantages of selecting these builds would be impacted if grabbing weapons were an allowed substitution for existing requirements.* In the future, builds specific to using grabbing weapons might be created. One that immediately comes to mind that's not present yet is a "Retiarius" build. For those who don't know, the retiarius was a style of gladiatorial combat that involved the use of a net and trident combination. This could be a new build for the fighter OR designed as an entirely new class around the concept of a Martial Controller. - the one caveat to this is the Brawler build could be amended so that powers that explicitly generated grabs with the one-hand requirement would now allow grabbing weapons as an alternative (I'm a bit torn at this point about whether this is a workable solution). Pulling an opponent from a mount Grabbed opponents who are mounted () must make a saving throw to avoid being dismounted as long as the grab is sustained. Lower than 10: Failure. You are dismounted and fall prone in an open space within reach of your opponent or that opponent's grabbing weapon and adjacent to the mount (your choice from the spaces available). If no spaces are available, the dismount result is avoided. 10 or higher: Success. You remain in the saddle and are not knocked prone or dismounted. *- There might be some case-by-case interpretation of what the effects of the grab would be while the opponent is mounted. It's possible the attacker would 'stick' to the oppenent as the mount moves around till he/she pulls the opponent from the mount (at which time standard rules would apply) - especially if the mount is significantly larger than the attacker.
#2 severion1 Feb 20, 2010 21:14:41	Considerations for a Martial Controller class (brainstorming) (just some ideas to throw out there) (1) I believe the character of such a class would be that a martial controller would operate mainly from the midst of combat, utilizing his weapons, fighting style and tactics to maneuver his opponents around the battlefield. This is opposed to most controllers out there, who typically operate from range. For this reason, I'd think their primary attributes would be dexterity, constitution and wisdom. They'd need dexterity to maneuver quickly and resolve their attacks, constitution to survive close quarters combat, and wisdom to improvise on the battlefield. (2) I think some martial controllers might be particularly adept at leveraging different types of combat terrain. I could see powers that would temporarily or permanently change squares of terrain to other kinds of terrain (maybe changing a couple of squares of difficult terrain into hindering terrain), powers that added terrain features (throwing obstacles in an opponents way), or that added new temporary or permanent effects to certain spaces (maybe adding/removing cover). They would be adept at using caltrops, marbles, slippery oil/grease, quickly setting traps, etc. They'd use smoke bombs, flash grenades, flash-bangs, etc. to affect concealment. They'd be good at communicating on the battlefield - passing information to allies about terrain to lend benefits to overcoming obstacles. (3) Other martial controllers might be adept at using grabbing weapons or similar weapons designed to impede or affect an opponent's progress/activity. These martial controllers would have attacks designed to set up opponents for their allies to finish and would be more adept at affecting/disabling a single opponent than counteracting groups of enemies. (4) Martial controllers would be slippery characters, adept at escapes and aiding escapes, helping allies with saving throws, and performing aid-related actions for allies more effectively than other characters, etc.
#3 severion1 Feb 21, 2010 23:58:18	If the Brawler build were amended to account for grappling weapons, these would be the powers that effect grabs that would be most likely affected. There are plenty of other powers that require one hand free that can be best left as they are to maintain the integrity of the Brawler build. - Grappling Strike (lvl 1 at will) - Bash and Pinion (lvl 1 encounter) - Seize and Stab (lvl 1 daily) - Stranglehold (lvl 13 encounter) - Relentless Headlock (lvl 15 daily) - Trollclaw Grip (lvl 23 encounter) - Hold at Bay (lvl 25 daily) - Wrenching Assault (lvl 27 encounter) - no hand free means opponent's disarmed weapon would drop to the ground. - Neck Snap (lvl 29 daily) On the one hand, I can see an argument to leave the Brawler as/is. On the other, the focus fo the build is on grabbing and it's a bit redundant to consider an entirely new build angled towards grabbing that just makes the change for allowing grabbing weapons. If we want to get technical, I think a number of the Brawler blinding abilities could also be allowed (retiariaus fighters were known for setting up attacks with their nets to blind their opponents) - but then that lessens the advantages which I think the designers were seeking to encourage a style that kept one hand free. There's plenty of other powers available beyond the Brawler selection that by just making this one amendment to the build, you make the build more flexible and open up some design options that together with the grab proposal above, you should get the best of both worlds and not make things unbalanced. /shrug I'm just brainstorming here. I'd love some thoughts, feedback and/or considered suggestions if anyone has any feelings on the matter or any other of the stuff I've discussed. Do you guys like it all, like some of it, hate it, etc.?
#4 severion1 Mar 02, 2010 16:47:16	I recently tossed some of these ideas around with a friend of mine who's DM'ing a new 4th ed. campaign for our group. He had some good feedback which I'd like to share here. The main house rule that he's running is that no house rule shall override the Character Builder. His perspective is that the rules w/i the CB are very carefully balanced (much like well-written code) and that any changes must be very carefully considered so that they don't introduce unwanted 'bugs'. I appreciate this as it filters my ideas through a nice dose of hard-edged skeptical objectivism. Here's what we decided after chatting. Grabbing with a 'grabbing' style weapon would only be allowed as a standard action attack. We'd forego any modifiers ala those I suggested above due to training. My character is using a net. The use of the net will be modified by the following proviso: Grabbing with the net: any failed grab attack that involves the net involves letting go of the net and it ending up in the square of your opponent. Any successful grab that is ended except by failing to sustain the grab means letting go of the net and it ending up in the square of your opponent. Retrieving the net from an unoccupied adjacent square is a minor action. Retrieving the net from an occupied square provokes an attack of opportunity with combat advantage. It's possible one might apply a similar rule to other grabbing weapons, but this one is simple and works nicely for the net (it also fits well with the historical application of the weapon, which pleases a simulationist like myself). This is especially nice because it doesn't conflict with our house rule that no house rules shall conflict with the output from the Character Builder. It adds a bit more flexibility in the use of the net w/o affecting individual powers.