Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bone_naga Jun 03, 2009 18:38:17	The grab option seems a little weak to me. There doesn't seem to be much incentive to use it except in very specific circumstances. I ruled that whenever you grab a target, you can use him to gain cover, but I'm not sure if that's enough. I want it to be a viable option without making it broken. What's your experience with grab? Do your players use it? Do you have houserules to improve it?
#2 Rustmonster Jun 03, 2009 23:12:24	The only problem I have with it is using a Skill to escape. The math and scaling for Skills is much different than that for Attack and Defenses, so it doesn't work properly. I'd rather have it as a Save Ends effect, personally.
#3 darkerdreams Jun 04, 2009 2:12:07	My players have had little use for grabs, unless a creature is obnoxiously mobile they're better off using their hands for something else (2 handed weapon, sword'n'board). I (as DM) have learned that grabs are generally only worthwhile when the creature involved have abilities that make their grab worthwhile. Not something that's actually going to see any use in my game, but that I amused myself by making; Show Grappler [Multiclass Grappler] You may attempt a Grab as a melee basic attack. You may use the Pin at-will attack; Pin Feat Power You bind your victim in a powerful grip. At-Will ? Martial Standard Action Melee touch Targets: One creature you have grabbed. Requirement: You must have both hands empty (aside from the grabbed target). Attack: Strength vs. Reflex Hit: You shift into the target's square. The target is Prone and Restrained. If they successfully break your Grab they instead are no longer Restrained, but remain Grabbed. If you end the Grab they are no longer Restrained. Grappler Novice Prerequisite: 4th-level, Grappler Benefit: You can swap one 3rd-level or higher encounter power you know for the Crushing Grip attack power. Crushing Grip Feat Power You bind your victim in a powerful grip. Daily ? Martial Standard Action Melee touch Targets: One creature which is currently Restrained because you have used the Pin power on it. Requirement: You must have both hands empty (aside from the grabbed target). Attack: Strength vs. Fortitude Hit: The target suffers Strength modifier ongoing damage and cannot break the Grab (save ends). 15th-level: Increase ongoing damage to twice Strength modifier. 25th-level: Increase ongoing damage to three times Strength modifier. Grappler Expert Prerequisite: 8th-level, Grappler Benefit: You can swap one 6th-level or higher encounter power you know for the Iron Grip utility power. Iron Grip Feat Power Your rippling muscles hold your victims fast. [b]Daily ? Martial, Stance Minor Action Personal Effect: As long as you maintain this stance you gain a bonus to your defenses equal to your Strength modifier against attempts to escape your Grab. Further attempts to escape your Grab require a Standard action rather than a Move action. Grappler Specialist Prerequisite: 10th-level, Grappler Benefit: You can swap one 9th-level or higher daily power you know for the either the Choke Hold daily power. Choke Hold Feat Power You bind your victim in a powerful grip. Daily ? Martial Standard Action Melee touch Targets: One creature which is currently Restrained because you have used the Pin power on it. Requirement: You must have both hands empty (aside from the grabbed target). Attack: Strength vs. Fortitude Hit: The target suffers Strength modifier ongoing damage and cannot break the Grab (save ends). First Failed Saving Throw: Slowed (save ends). Second Failed Saving Throw: Weakened (save ends). Third Failed Saving Throw: Dazed (save ends). Fourth Failed Saving Throw: Surprised (save ends). Fifth Failed Saving Throw: Stunned (save ends). Sixth Failed Saving Throw: Unconscious (save ends). 15th-level: Increase ongoing damage to twice Strength modifier. 25th-level: Increase ongoing damage to three times Strength modifier.
#4 bone_naga Jun 04, 2009 19:37:22	What if the action required for a grab was changed from a standard to a move action? You give up your movement to take away theirs?
#5 Polis Jun 05, 2009 15:51:04	While grab isn't that great it can be used with an action point to move a target the same turn you grab it. Although a large waste of an action point it is one way to move an opponent and deny them a move action next round. Best part is if you move them into difficult terrain or grab them in difficult terrain they cannot shift after escaping. Also, for some weird reason, you can grab, action point, and then bull rush. I believe since you shift with the bull rush you maintain the grab. Anyone have a cliff they want to hang someone off of?
#6 nil_athelion Jun 08, 2009 4:48:24	I've been pondering this problem with the new zombie I'm designing. They have a special vs. Ref attack they can make as a free action after any melee hit, grabbing the opponent. They give a -5 to any attempt to escape the grab. They can use a minor action to move one square and pull the grabbed target into their former square (which provokes an OA, representing a PC flailing at the zombie that is dragging them towards the others). But as great as that all is, someone just hits with their Footwork Lure, and bam, they are free. Or with their Tide of Iron. Or most controller powers that move things around. Part of me says this is as it should be, but I'm really disappointed on how weak the grab mechanic is in 4E. My PC was trying to grab someone earlier, and without weapon prof or enchantment bonuses, hitting someone's fortitude just wasn't working out for me. Everything about it is just very, very weak. While I dream of hanging someone off a cliff, I know that the numbers are just never going to work out.
#7 AbdulAlhazred Jun 08, 2009 11:57:07	If it is too hard to get out of a grab then it will eclipse other similar forms of control. It is true, certain characters will have an easy time getting out of grabs, others will have a hard time. Overall I think it would be pretty difficult to gain and maintain a hold on someone in the middle of a melee. I don't really see why you couldn't grab someone and hold them over the edge of a cliff or somesuch now. You can move at half speed while grabbing someone. Grab them, move over to the cliff edge. Now they're dangling. Seems to work. They can try to escape, but it wouldn't be advisable!
#8 Saric Jun 08, 2009 13:36:48	This is why a character who wants to grab monsters more effectively picks up the improved grab feat from phb2. It takes care of the math problem to initiate a grab. Also not all monsters do not have athletics/acrobatics trained as a skill. The ones that do, will probably escape in a cinch. The problem with grabbing is how easy it is to escape, since its hard to keep up both your fortitude and your reflex defense at a decent pace unless you specifically have the stats/feats/items to boost them to make it harder for any potential escapees.
#9 Shamanstarr Jun 09, 2009 17:22:10	Not that I've Houseruled it yet, but I have been contemplating making Grab instead of an Immobilize condition, a Restrained one except that you can be pulled, pushed, or slide by the grabbing creature obviously. Seems to me that makes more sense for a grab. When I grab someone, I attempt to keep them from acting, restraining them, and I think they would grand combat advantage, have minuses to hit anyone except whomever grabbed them. Can still give them the escape option for a grab, and obviously, restrained means they are also immobilized while restrained. New Condition Suggestion: GRABBED: -Grant Combat Advantage to everyone but the grabber. -Target is Immobilized -Target can only be forced to move by the grabber (pull, push, slide) -Target takes a -2 to atk rolls against anyone but the grabbing creature Just My 2 cents worth. Seuss