Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Krusk Dec 06, 2008 14:59:12	For my setting two distinct types of Orcs exist. The Gray and Green. Gray is the warlord, green the barbarian. (class and flavor). Orc are also a PC race, in the same manner of common-ness as elves and eladrin. (low and high elves). Here is the writeup for the race, mostly I'm concerned about balance if anyone has any suggestions or feedback on it. Orcs While the goblinoids are an unorganized threat, the orcs are anything but. They occupy the city of Guwhati, and from here constantly war with the surrounding areas. Orcs come in the cunning Gray variety, and the brutal Green variety. While the goblinoids worry about wealth and are constantly turning on themselves, the orcs are clearly united under a great king for a common cause; the destruction of the other races, who they see as having wronged them for any of a hundred reasons. Green Orc Average Height: 6 0˝ – 6 5˝ Average Weight: 200–230 lb. Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-light Languages: Black Speech and Choice of one other Skill Modifiers: +2 Endurance, +2 Intimidate Bloodrage: The first time a Green Orc is bloodied during an encounter, they gain their Constitution modifier + 1/2 level in temporary HP. Orc Weapon Proficency: You gain proficiency with the battleaxe and the handaxe. Running Charge: When you charge, add 2 to your speed. Warrior’s Surge: You can use warrior’s surge as an encounter power.(as in the MM) Gray Orc Average Height: 5 10˝ – 6 3˝ Average Weight: 190–220 lb. Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-light Languages: Black Speech and Choice of one other Skill Modifiers: +2 History, +2 Insight Orc Weapon Proficency: You gain proficiency with the battleaxe and the handaxe. Drillmaster: All allies that can see and hear you gain a +1 bonus to intiiative checks. Lead the Troops: You can use lead the troops as an encounter power. Lead the Troops Encounter Power Immediate Interrupt Close Burst 5 Trigger: One creature other than you within range makes an attack Effect: You can re-roll the attack roll using the original modifiers, the attacker must accept the result of this re-roll even if it worse ---- Also added one racial feat for now. Orc Champion [Orc] You gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with all axes and spears
#2 wyld_mutation Dec 06, 2008 16:07:11	... One word Underpowered. Compare that to ANY PC race in the PhB. I suupose you intend to beef them up a bit? Where should it start?
#3 Krusk Dec 06, 2008 16:19:37	Thats what I thought. But I figured better to veer on the side of suck than too good. Also didn't say which way I thought, so I could get some opinions. I'm thinking of adding some sort of skill boost, but I can't think of anything that really reflects the races affinity for tactical warfare. The closest I can come to is a +2 bonus to insight, and possibly perception? Any ideas?
#4 wyld_mutation Dec 06, 2008 16:37:37	Give two racial features (besides the power) and two +2 skill boosts and it's EXACTLY the same as any PhB race. Other possibilities are Athletics and Endurance. I'd go Insight and Athletics myself...
#5 kuonji Dec 06, 2008 18:37:11	I'm a bit confused by your racial power. Whose modifiers do you use when making the attack roll, the Grey Orc's or the original attacker's? I also do not like the wording of the Trigger. Perhaps "an attack roll that does not hit" or something. As it stands now, if Bob and Jerry are players, and Bob is upset with Jerry over something, Bob could decide to reroll Jerry's critical hit. Not that I'm implying that's how your players would use it, but "do not like" is not a very specific triggering condition. I think Wyld_Mutation is right on with Insight/Endurance or Insight/Athletics for the skill bonuses.
#6 Lord_Ventnor Dec 06, 2008 22:21:56	For skills, I guess I'd say +2 History and +2 Insight, but that's just me.
#7 Krusk Dec 07, 2008 0:24:57	Give two racial features (besides the power) and two +2 skill boosts and it's EXACTLY the same as any PhB race. Other possibilities are Athletics and Endurance. I'd go Insight and Athletics myself... Keep in mind it has to be comparative in power to the MM orc race, which is basically this with a different power and the charge thing. So I think two racial features is a bit much, personally. I'm a bit confused by your racial power. Whose modifiers do you use when making the attack roll, the Grey Orc's or the original attacker's? I also do not like the wording of the Trigger. Perhaps "an attack roll that does not hit" or something. As it stands now, if Bob and Jerry are players, and Bob is upset with Jerry over something, Bob could decide to reroll Jerry's critical hit. Not that I'm implying that's how your players would use it, but "do not like" is not a very specific triggering condition. I worded it as I did on purpose. I expressly wanted to leave it open for Bob if he really wants to. Keep in mind this is for an orc army. Orc leader might be abusing orc subordinate just a little too much. Orc ally subordinate decides to spin and attack Orc leader. Orc leader uses their intimidating stare to force jerry to loose out on that crit vs orc leader. As for who rolls with what modifiers, I think there are some other powers that use similar phrasing. I will look into a better way to say "you get to reroll your allys attack using their mods." For skills, I guess I'd say +2 History and +2 Insight, but that's just me. I like history for the military tactics aspect, but im not sure if I can imagine them sitting around reading about past things. (of course the reason it is only +2 could be they just study tactics, and not all of history)
#8 wyld_mutation Dec 07, 2008 9:00:26	Keep in mind that the MM races aren;t meant for PC use. PC races have a power and 2-3 racial abilities.
#9 Krusk Dec 07, 2008 11:50:03	Keep in mind that the MM races aren;t meant for PC use. PC races have a power and 2-3 racial abilities. Yeah, but I let players use them as PC races if they want until an official PC race is released. Are you suggesting the MM orc needs a bump in power to be equal to the PHB races?
#10 Fedosu Dec 07, 2008 17:06:50	Are you suggesting the MM orc needs a bump in power to be equal to the PHB races? Yes
#11 Krusk Dec 07, 2008 19:44:41	/\ If you think so, then consider reworking the MM orc as part of PEACHing my new race. I would love to hear suggestions.
#12 Fedosu Dec 07, 2008 20:41:29	To fill out the MM Orc I would first give them +2 endurance and +2 intimidate. Given the fact that most of the Orcs in the MM use axes I would give them a weapon proficiency similar to the dwarves except handaxes and battleaxes instead of warhammer and throwing hammer. I'm not sure what their other feature would be, something that would give them an advantage when bloodied perhaps (but there's an awful lot of that floating around already). It might also help to think about what classes these ability modifiers will lend the race to and create racial features that might improve that synergy. Green Orcs (str, con) are going to make ideal fighters and barbarians, while Grey Orcs (str, int) are going to make good warlords and swordmages. So the green orcs are likely going to be taking a lot of damage, so perhaps when they're bloodied they get a defence bonus of some sort to allow them to last longer (this fits in with the text in the MM that says they "give no thought to retreat or surrender." so they'd likely be tough nuts to crack toward the end of a battle). You might also want to give the two races a feature in common to tie them together a little bit, similar to the githyanki and githzerai both possessing the danger sense feature. This would make a lot of sense given that from your description above the races live together in one society. So maybe they both get the axe proficiency I mentioned above. Green Orc Average Height: 6 0˝ – 6 5˝ Average Weight: 200–230 lb. Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-light Languages: Black Speech and Choice of one other Skill Modifiers: +2 Endurance, +2 Intimidate Bloodthick Skin: While you are bloodied, gain a +1 bonus to AC. Orcish Weapon Proficency: You gain proficiency with the battleaxe and the handaxe. Running Charge: When you charge, add 2 to your speed. Warrior’s Surge: You can use warrior’s surge as an encounter power. Gray Orc Average Height: 6 0˝ – 6 5˝ Average Weight: 190–220 lb. Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Intelligence Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-light Languages: Black Speech and Choice of one other Skill Modifiers: +2 History, +2 Insight Orcish Weapon Proficency: You gain proficiency with the battleaxe and the handaxe. Lead the Troops: You can use lead the troops as an encounter power. Though the grey still needs a couple of features. Lead the troops might be better worded like this, I believe it retains your intended functionality: Lead the Troops Encounter Power Immediate Interrupt Ranged 5 Trigger: One creature other than you within range makes an attack Effect: You can re-roll the attack roll using the original modifiers, the attacker must accept the result of this re-roll even if it worse.
#13 Krusk Dec 08, 2008 11:15:44	Wow, some serious thought, and I really do like most of your ideas. One problem I noted. You turned Lead the Troops into a "Immediate Interrupt Ranged 5" being ranged 5 would this not provoke an AoO and basically be useless? This was my reasoning for making it close burst 5, to skirt the AoO that should be incurred. Or am I wrong, and the reason being that because its an Immediate Interrupt it can't be subject to AoOs? Also, bloodthick skin seems sort of lame to me. It just doesn't seem like a dynamic enough power. What do you think of the idea of gaining an ammount of temporary HP, or even real hp the first time they are bloodied during an encounter? Keeps the idea that they can keep on fighting longer without maknig them suddenly harder to hit as they are beaten.
#14 ostrakon Dec 08, 2008 11:28:50	Lead the Troops should be Close Burst 5 so it doesn't provoke OAs. Either way, it's almost strictly better than Elven accuracy. I might even say that they re-roll the attack at a -2 penalty to keep it balanced. Then again, it does use up your immediate reaction, so it might not be too bad.
#15 Krusk Dec 08, 2008 11:36:59	Either way, it's almost strictly better than Elven accuracy. I might even say that they re-roll the attack at a -2 penalty to keep it balanced. Then again, it does use up your immediate reaction, so it might not be too bad. That was my thought as well. Which is why I originally did not give them as many powers. Consider this though, is the race better or worse than an elf overall? thats the important part, not are their racial powers equal to one another.
#16 Fedosu Dec 08, 2008 16:40:19	Yea, you're right, it should be close burst, my bad. Also, yes you're thoughts on bloodthick skin are probably better. I would recommend having it give temp HP for two reasons: first, temp HP mean that you're still bloodied so your status remains the same; and second, real HP isn't commonly given out except from spending healing surges.
#17 Krusk Dec 08, 2008 19:58:57	What do people think of my method for temp hp gain? Good, bad, stupid idea? Green Orc Average Height: 6 0˝ – 6 5˝ Average Weight: 200–230 lb. Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-light Languages: Black Speech and Choice of one other Skill Modifiers: +2 Endurance, +2 Intimidate Bloodrage: The first time a Green Orc is bloodied during an encounter, they gain their level in temporary HP.< New addition Orc Weapon Proficency: You gain proficiency with the battleaxe and the handaxe. Running Charge: When you charge, add 2 to your speed. Warrior’s Surge: You can use warrior’s surge as an encounter power.
#18 Fedosu Dec 09, 2008 1:36:47	The problem with that version is that it's essentially pointless at low levels. It also gets bigger at a much faster rate than most other things in the game. It might be better to make it Con mod + 1/2 level, that way it's more useful early on, and it doesn't just balloon up later. And it's not as if you're then forcing the player to focus on an ability they wouldn't be using otherwise because having a decent Con score is good for absolutely everybody.
#19 Krusk Dec 09, 2008 14:57:33	The problem with that version is that it's essentially pointless at low levels. It also gets bigger at a much faster rate than most other things in the game. It might be better to make it Con mod + 1/2 level, that way it's more useful early on, and it doesn't just balloon up later. And it's not as if you're then forcing the player to focus on an ability they wouldn't be using otherwise because having a decent Con score is good for absolutely everybody. Don't have anything to add, but I wanted to let you know I agree and am changing it. I was bouncing between 1/2 level + con or full level and eventually decided full level, so that no stat reliance exists, but it is a race with a con boost, and your point about how everone wants a decent con swayed me.
#20 Fedosu Dec 09, 2008 23:09:17	So now all that's missing is another feature or two for the grey orc. Any ideas? Maybe they could have a modified charge as well? Intelligent Charge When you charge, you can use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Strength modifier to make your melee basic attack.
#21 Krusk Dec 10, 2008 0:47:42	I am at a complete blank for gray orcs new power. But I am not a fan of intelligent charge. (not to crap on your help). I don't really think it fits the flavor of the orc leader race. What about the option to use str or int for intimidate vs cha? strong enough, broken? opinions? *Scrach the above, I feel like it ought to have a combat related ability, not an additional skill boost.
#22 Fedosu Dec 13, 2008 17:21:09	Okay, so leaderish combat related ability. Maybe they can grant a few free (temp?) hit points when they hit with a daily power. Maybe something that lets them grant saving throws. Let me read through the warlord again and I'll come back with an idea or two.
#23 Krusk Dec 14, 2008 17:32:36	How about an ambient aura of init boost to all allies, or an aura that gives a bonus to move speed in the first round to ally. Sort of a "if we hang around this guy we know he wants us to charge on in there. If we dont he may kill us"