H1 Keep on the Shadowfell Encounter Level 6 Help - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

H1 Keep on the Shadowfell Encounter Level 6 Help

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
taylordc3
Mar 25, 2009 17:23:39 I'm about to start DMing this module and I've come across a fight I think is impossible for the PCs to survive.

Fights A2 and A3 are right next to eachother attacking the Kobold Lair Outside then inside. The 5 PCs would likely be level 1 still at this point.

A2 is EL 1 with 10 Kobold Minions (L1 Minion), 1 K Skirmisher (L1 Skirmisher), 1 K Dragonshield (L2 Soldier), 1 K Slinger (L1 Artillery). The fact it has 10 minions for level 1 PCs would seem to make it more dangerous than an EL1. But right after A2, the PCs would storm the lair and take on the following:

A3 is EL 6 and 2 waves. Wave 1: 3 L1 Skirmishers, 10 L1 Minions. Wave 2: 2 L2 Soldiers, 1 L3 Artillery, 1 L3 Elite Brute.

The PCs are attacking a lair, and the tactics of the Kobolds are pretty flawless (considering it's their home). How could the PCs possibly surrvive these 2 encounters back-2-back?
#2
the_antra
Mar 25, 2009 21:28:39 I´m also starting to DM this adventure and, like you, I´m also a little afraid of a very likely TPK in the encounter with Irontooth.

From what I´ve been reading all over the internet, there are two possible outcomes: 1) PCs recklessly mix up both encounters and end up with a TPK or 2) PCs act carefully, handling the encounter outside the cave (that´s why the waterfall is there, so the noise won´t reach the enemies in the cave) and, once inside, they focus their attention on Irontooth, specially with powers that weaken or hinder him in any way.

People who managed to hinder Irontooth claim that the encounter was pretty easy, as unbelievable as it sounds.

Cheers!
#3
gregt_314
Mar 25, 2009 21:48:57 Hey guys. I've run this pair of encounters twice. My players were good players and they stomped all over them but I'm well aware that's not the normal experience.

Tips:

(1) The difficulty is VERY heavily affected by party composition and player skill. It's intended that you have one competent defender in the party - if no one rolled a fighter or paladin you're going to have trouble. If you have two, it's a cakewalk. Those narrow openings into the cave either side of the waterfall are powerful natural choke points.

(2) Resist the temptation to let the kobolds outside warn the kobolds inside. When a kobold starts to run, make it very obvious to the players that it's happening and what the consequences will be if it gets away, and make sure they have a full round to do something about it.

(3) Encourage players to take their 5 minute rest outside before proceeding inside.

(4) Make sure that they're coming to the lair straight off an extended rest in the first place! Don't ask them to take a Kobold Ambush prior to their arrival at the outside.

(5) Make sure you fully understand the rules, so that you can help out your players. If you misunderstand the way flanking works, or shifting, or opportunity attacks, you can make the fight significantly harder than it's supposed to be.

(6) Bursting through the waterfall may be dramatic but it's a special form of suicide. Players should enter through the side tunnels. Subtly encourage this as the appropriate strategy.

(7) Remind players how Second Wind works, and that dwarves get it as a minor action.

If you do all of the above you should find that the paired encounters are too easy, if anything. Remember that players will enjoy a fight they barely survive a lot more than something they steamroll, as long as it's not every fight.

My 4E blog, Eleven Foot Pole, is largely dedicated to Keep on the Shadowfell and its numerous problems; feel free to check it out.
#4
the_antra
Mar 25, 2009 22:49:30 Hey, Greg!

Thanks a million for the great tips! I will certainly follow your advice!

And I loved the blog. I will definitely be following it.

Cheers,
Marcio
#5
DevoDog
Mar 26, 2009 7:48:21 I'm not sure yet whether I'll every fully run KOTS (I'm stealing bits and pieces of it for my new campaign).

What I've considered doing is changing the "trigger" for the 2nd wave. Rather than have it being after a set number of rounds, I'm considering having the second wave come when a certain number of opponents remain (probably based on the XP value of the remaining opponents).

Or, I may simply run it as 2 separate back-to-back encounters (with no chance for an extended rest).
#6
luca_bellarosa
Mar 26, 2009 10:49:06 Hi guys,
I just ran yesterday night the encounter you are speaking about.
Well, in the group we had:

*) 2 defenders: a mordenkrad tiefling fighter and an eladrin swordmage
*) 2 leaders: an inspiring half-elf warlord and a Raven Queen dwarf cleric
*) 1 striker: an elf feylock

All second level characters.
For what happened, I suggest you: HELP YOUR PLAYERS AS MUCH AS YOU CAN with hints and advices, because in my group , ONLY ONE SURVIVED (the swordmage, who crawled away).
And I helped them delaying the second wave of other 2 rounds,
Encourage them to use tactics, especially to avoid being surrounded by more than three kobolds; in this case, the have a normal +5 +2 = +7 to attack (if only 3 minions surround you), and this means they could hit even the 19 AC swordmage without a big effort.
My players were "beginners", and they thought their characters were immortal: I proved them wrong with a couple of encounters before, so I thought they learnt the lesson: unfortunately for them, they did not.....
Luca
#7
Jaegar
Mar 26, 2009 15:39:19 My group (of 6) completely annihilated A2. Not even close. None of them were in any danger at any point. The group is quite good at tactics however. The wizard took out over half of the minions, the cleric and rogue took out the skirm, the paladin kept the slinger and two minions busy, and the warlock and ranger dealt with the dragonshield. Going inside will be interesting. I will let you know how that turns out after Sunday evening's game.
#8
Neutronium_Dragon
Mar 26, 2009 20:15:20 One other thing that I've seen come up: The second wave kobolds are not in the area initially and shouldn't be placed in their starting positions until they actually arrive. There've been cases where DMs actually put the second wave kobolds in the marked places on the map under the assumption that they just don't choose to join in until the countdown elapses, which usually created a mess when the PCs did something (like fire an attack off their way) that all but forced the kobold to join in nevertheless.
#9
tricksterpippin
Mar 28, 2009 12:51:03 My group took on that encounter a few months back, the whole thing at once, the party was 2 paladins and 2 rangers (one melee, the other ranged), all level 1. We actually survived with only the melee ranger being dropped, its was a lot of tactical skill and luck though. Just get the melee PC's to get their backs against the wall so the can't be flanked. It was one hell of a fight though
#10
Shiftkitty
Mar 29, 2009 1:01:06 We used the sample PCs, only changing the dwarf and halfling to humans and making the wizard an elf. I ran Irontooth as written and they got through fine. It was rough, but survivable. Just remember, this game isn't "Every Man For Himself". You have to have each others' backs.
#11
jhanzur
Mar 29, 2009 10:34:29 I ran this, but it was quite awhile ago(6 months at least).

As I recall though, the wizard managed to get most of the minions early on. The fighter(who wasn't exactly a competent player) was able to hold his own, while the paladin went in a did some wailing. The Rogue also took care of quite a few, while the Warlord hung back(because he was afraid of water..... *sigh*) They got through the first encounter with very few resources expended.

The second encounter was tough, but was by no means a total wipe. One character was below 0 HP, and everyone had used dailes and stuff, but they weren't really that bad off.
#12
Jaegar
Mar 30, 2009 9:25:09 Well, my group just finished the encounter last night. They did pretty well, the rogue and warlock were the only two in real danger. A very nice use of the cleric's daily kept the paladin alive. She promptly used her daily and dropped a crit on Irontooth. She alone took half of his health in two hits. The wizard did not fare well against the minions, only killing 2 of them (awful rolls).
The group actually had a harder time with the first encounter inside the keep. Those goblin sharpshooters are NASTY (+9 to hit, 1d8+4 is quite brutal). And they rolled nice, very nice :D .
#13
taylordc3
Apr 22, 2009 17:17:31 I decided to re-do the combats and rush the PCs to Level 2.

A2 - Outside: Changed the Slinger to a Vermin Handler. There are 2 less Minions.

A3 – Inside the Lair:

1st Wave OK [Grant Milestone 1 midway through combat]

2nd Wave 1 War Priest and 1 Chieftan [Do not allow multiple action points to be used as they haven’t taken a short rest.]

3rd Wave (after short rest) Irontooth and 2 Dragonshields. [Grant Milestone 2]

This worked out well. The Chieftan and War Preist gave them something different to fight than things they'd fought before and kept the XP appropriate. It got tense at times, but Irontooth wasn't as bad as he would have been otherwise if they all didn't get a chance to gang up on him.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 taylordc3 Mar 25, 2009 17:23:39	I'm about to start DMing this module and I've come across a fight I think is impossible for the PCs to survive. Fights A2 and A3 are right next to eachother attacking the Kobold Lair Outside then inside. The 5 PCs would likely be level 1 still at this point. A2 is EL 1 with 10 Kobold Minions (L1 Minion), 1 K Skirmisher (L1 Skirmisher), 1 K Dragonshield (L2 Soldier), 1 K Slinger (L1 Artillery). The fact it has 10 minions for level 1 PCs would seem to make it more dangerous than an EL1. But right after A2, the PCs would storm the lair and take on the following: A3 is EL 6 and 2 waves. Wave 1: 3 L1 Skirmishers, 10 L1 Minions. Wave 2: 2 L2 Soldiers, 1 L3 Artillery, 1 L3 Elite Brute. The PCs are attacking a lair, and the tactics of the Kobolds are pretty flawless (considering it's their home). How could the PCs possibly surrvive these 2 encounters back-2-back?
#2 the_antra Mar 25, 2009 21:28:39	I´m also starting to DM this adventure and, like you, I´m also a little afraid of a very likely TPK in the encounter with Irontooth. From what I´ve been reading all over the internet, there are two possible outcomes: 1) PCs recklessly mix up both encounters and end up with a TPK or 2) PCs act carefully, handling the encounter outside the cave (that´s why the waterfall is there, so the noise won´t reach the enemies in the cave) and, once inside, they focus their attention on Irontooth, specially with powers that weaken or hinder him in any way. People who managed to hinder Irontooth claim that the encounter was pretty easy, as unbelievable as it sounds. Cheers!
#3 gregt_314 Mar 25, 2009 21:48:57	Hey guys. I've run this pair of encounters twice. My players were good players and they stomped all over them but I'm well aware that's not the normal experience. Tips: (1) The difficulty is VERY heavily affected by party composition and player skill. It's intended that you have one competent defender in the party - if no one rolled a fighter or paladin you're going to have trouble. If you have two, it's a cakewalk. Those narrow openings into the cave either side of the waterfall are powerful natural choke points. (2) Resist the temptation to let the kobolds outside warn the kobolds inside. When a kobold starts to run, make it very obvious to the players that it's happening and what the consequences will be if it gets away, and make sure they have a full round to do something about it. (3) Encourage players to take their 5 minute rest outside before proceeding inside. (4) Make sure that they're coming to the lair straight off an extended rest in the first place! Don't ask them to take a Kobold Ambush prior to their arrival at the outside. (5) Make sure you fully understand the rules, so that you can help out your players. If you misunderstand the way flanking works, or shifting, or opportunity attacks, you can make the fight significantly harder than it's supposed to be. (6) Bursting through the waterfall may be dramatic but it's a special form of suicide. Players should enter through the side tunnels. Subtly encourage this as the appropriate strategy. (7) Remind players how Second Wind works, and that dwarves get it as a minor action. If you do all of the above you should find that the paired encounters are too easy, if anything. Remember that players will enjoy a fight they barely survive a lot more than something they steamroll, as long as it's not every fight. My 4E blog, Eleven Foot Pole, is largely dedicated to Keep on the Shadowfell and its numerous problems; feel free to check it out.
#4 the_antra Mar 25, 2009 22:49:30	Hey, Greg! Thanks a million for the great tips! I will certainly follow your advice! And I loved the blog. I will definitely be following it. Cheers, Marcio
#5 DevoDog Mar 26, 2009 7:48:21	I'm not sure yet whether I'll every fully run KOTS (I'm stealing bits and pieces of it for my new campaign). What I've considered doing is changing the "trigger" for the 2nd wave. Rather than have it being after a set number of rounds, I'm considering having the second wave come when a certain number of opponents remain (probably based on the XP value of the remaining opponents). Or, I may simply run it as 2 separate back-to-back encounters (with no chance for an extended rest).
#6 luca_bellarosa Mar 26, 2009 10:49:06	Hi guys, I just ran yesterday night the encounter you are speaking about. Well, in the group we had: ) 2 defenders: a mordenkrad tiefling fighter and an eladrin swordmage ) 2 leaders: an inspiring half-elf warlord and a Raven Queen dwarf cleric *) 1 striker: an elf feylock All second level characters. For what happened, I suggest you: HELP YOUR PLAYERS AS MUCH AS YOU CAN with hints and advices, because in my group , ONLY ONE SURVIVED (the swordmage, who crawled away). And I helped them delaying the second wave of other 2 rounds, Encourage them to use tactics, especially to avoid being surrounded by more than three kobolds; in this case, the have a normal +5 +2 = +7 to attack (if only 3 minions surround you), and this means they could hit even the 19 AC swordmage without a big effort. My players were "beginners", and they thought their characters were immortal: I proved them wrong with a couple of encounters before, so I thought they learnt the lesson: unfortunately for them, they did not..... Luca
#7 Jaegar Mar 26, 2009 15:39:19	My group (of 6) completely annihilated A2. Not even close. None of them were in any danger at any point. The group is quite good at tactics however. The wizard took out over half of the minions, the cleric and rogue took out the skirm, the paladin kept the slinger and two minions busy, and the warlock and ranger dealt with the dragonshield. Going inside will be interesting. I will let you know how that turns out after Sunday evening's game.
#8 Neutronium_Dragon Mar 26, 2009 20:15:20	One other thing that I've seen come up: The second wave kobolds are not in the area initially and shouldn't be placed in their starting positions until they actually arrive. There've been cases where DMs actually put the second wave kobolds in the marked places on the map under the assumption that they just don't choose to join in until the countdown elapses, which usually created a mess when the PCs did something (like fire an attack off their way) that all but forced the kobold to join in nevertheless.
#9 tricksterpippin Mar 28, 2009 12:51:03	My group took on that encounter a few months back, the whole thing at once, the party was 2 paladins and 2 rangers (one melee, the other ranged), all level 1. We actually survived with only the melee ranger being dropped, its was a lot of tactical skill and luck though. Just get the melee PC's to get their backs against the wall so the can't be flanked. It was one hell of a fight though
#10 Shiftkitty Mar 29, 2009 1:01:06	We used the sample PCs, only changing the dwarf and halfling to humans and making the wizard an elf. I ran Irontooth as written and they got through fine. It was rough, but survivable. Just remember, this game isn't "Every Man For Himself". You have to have each others' backs.
#11 jhanzur Mar 29, 2009 10:34:29	I ran this, but it was quite awhile ago(6 months at least). As I recall though, the wizard managed to get most of the minions early on. The fighter(who wasn't exactly a competent player) was able to hold his own, while the paladin went in a did some wailing. The Rogue also took care of quite a few, while the Warlord hung back(because he was afraid of water..... sigh) They got through the first encounter with very few resources expended. The second encounter was tough, but was by no means a total wipe. One character was below 0 HP, and everyone had used dailes and stuff, but they weren't really that bad off.
#12 Jaegar Mar 30, 2009 9:25:09	Well, my group just finished the encounter last night. They did pretty well, the rogue and warlock were the only two in real danger. A very nice use of the cleric's daily kept the paladin alive. She promptly used her daily and dropped a crit on Irontooth. She alone took half of his health in two hits. The wizard did not fare well against the minions, only killing 2 of them (awful rolls). The group actually had a harder time with the first encounter inside the keep. Those goblin sharpshooters are NASTY (+9 to hit, 1d8+4 is quite brutal). And they rolled nice, very nice :D .
#13 taylordc3 Apr 22, 2009 17:17:31	I decided to re-do the combats and rush the PCs to Level 2. A2 - Outside: Changed the Slinger to a Vermin Handler. There are 2 less Minions. A3 – Inside the Lair: 1st Wave OK [Grant Milestone 1 midway through combat] 2nd Wave 1 War Priest and 1 Chieftan [Do not allow multiple action points to be used as they haven’t taken a short rest.] 3rd Wave (after short rest) Irontooth and 2 Dragonshields. [Grant Milestone 2] This worked out well. The Chieftan and War Preist gave them something different to fight than things they'd fought before and kept the XP appropriate. It got tense at times, but Irontooth wasn't as bad as he would have been otherwise if they all didn't get a chance to gang up on him.