It seems like a guaranteed TPK for a typical party of 5 level 6s.
What are your thoughts?
Is there anyone who has run this module all the way through, who can tell me about how it went for them?
I'm glad someone else looking at this final battle feels this way without even having run it yet. I played through Thunderspire's final battle just a couple nights ago and let me tell you the experience almost completely put me off of D&D.
The final battle in H2 is so outrageous I don't know what the module designers were thinking when they designed it. Our party consisted of A wizard, 2 clerics (1 battle, 1 devoted), a Warlord, and a Rogue. Granted we are a little light on DPS with only 1 striker, but usually that is made up for with the abundence of healing.
*SPOILER*
The encounter starts with you teleporting into a room with 3 doors. 2 of the doors are open and one is locked. We proceeded through a side door to find a Bronze Warder, rather than advancing into his room to fight him we decided to fight him from the room we started in, because he couldn't come into it without having to constantly squeeze. After a couple rounds the Warder left the room he was in via another door, and proceeded to enter the room where the final battle takes place.
Our party then moved to the room that the Bronze warder was in to gain a better view of the room beyond. When we see the final room our hearts sank, not only was there a bronze warder but there were 2 regular monsters (I forget the names about 60 hp average 8 damage a hit and 19 AC) in addition to a shapeshifter (also forget the name, has an attack that is vs will at like +12 or something and makes it so the target cannot use any powers other than at-will powers until they save, once they save they are still dazed until the end of next turn). Basically he has the ability to incapacitate one of your group members almost every round, as long as he doesn't roll poorly.
Lastly, is the final boss, a wizard we had been sent to dispose of. I have to say this is where I completely LOVE (saracasm) the new system of Elite creatures. In previous editions when a Wizard is your enemy you can usually count on the attackers being able to hit the because they don't have insane AC, Fort, and Ref defenses and 180 hp. All of the Wizards defenses were 24+ I believe, his AC was 25 for sure. All the characters in our group have a to hit bonus of about +10-11 (I believe average at 6th), the rogue is the true standout with to hit with a +16-17 when he has combat advantage.
So for the final battle we were expected to run into a room with 2 enemies with 170+ hp and AC of 25, one of which has Resist all 5. Both of those enemies average about 15 points of damage a hit as well (the wizard can hit multiple targets), which is about 3-4 hits to a party of 6th level characters and have +14 (Warder) and +16 minimum (Wizard) to hit. The wizard had abilities that made his to hit get up to +18-20 (no one in the party has better than 22 AC). Additionally, the Wizard had an ability, at-will immediate reaction, whenever he gets attacked (by melee or ranged) he can immediately make himself invisible to the attacker. So our rogue who was our saving grace interms of hitting the Wizard would take a -5 penalty to hit. Lastly, in the room where the wizard is fought there is a pillar that is supposed to shoot lasers or something at the PCs, and there are pillars where the Wizard gets to recharge his spells.
Now, all the being said we did beat the encounter. However, our DM took away the wizards immediate reaction invisibility, and he took out the laser shooting pillar. Also, our DM doesn't really believe in trying to kill PCs, he thinks it is contrary to the nature of the game (despite our desire to have him be more brutal with us). So he does not really make the enemies do the nastiest things they could be doing, quite often he will subsitute a more devastating ability with one that is still effective but doesn't necessarily swing the tide of battle.
I have DM'd before, and while I have not DM'd in 4th yet, my feeling is if I was controling those enemies I could have wiped the floor with the PCs so easily it would have made me laugh. I mean unless the PCs are 'mentally challenged' they will probably not charge into the main room, which is all the better for the wizard. Have the bronze warder block the door to the main room and then pepper in spells at the PCs, he has lightning bolt and shocking burst, lightning bolt is 2d6+9 main target and 1d6+9 to 2 secondary targets, shocking burst is 2d6+9 to a burst 2. So with those two abilities and the pretty much guaranteed hit, just take the PCs hps down about 1/4 then use both those abilities in the same round with an action point, my bet is you'll have 1-2 PCs down with that and the rest very close to death. That could probably be accomplished in the first few rounds of combat as well!!
Oh and by the way, the only way we were able to dispatch the wizard effectively, as it was suicide to enter the room he was in. We had our wizard use his (stinking cloud) or what not, basically does 1d10+Int to anyone who starts their turn in the cloud. He went right after the enemy wizard in inititative, so he would move the could to wherever the wizard was; when the wizard activated he would automatically take damage with no required roll. That spell single handedly took the wizard down about 75% of his health, without the other characters even getting involved with fighting the wizard.
For you flamers who might say "Why are you complaining when you won the fight?" again the DM probably could have used more discretion when controlling the Wizard so that he was eventually avoiding the poison cloud. As well as using some of his more devastating powers in certain situations.
In closing D&D to me, is supposed to be about having fun, and doing entertaining and heroic things with your characters. This last battle was in no way fun, in fact it was the opposite, it was boring for the DM (because we had to hide in a room and fight defensively) and it was angering for the players because we were completely ineffective. I would seriously like to know what the module designers at Wizards were thinking when they designed this last encounter.
P.S. In the first module Keep on the Shadowfell, I found it funny because I felt the final battle was outrageous too. Although not as bad as this one, I remember the majority of the party took half their hps in falling damage before the battle even started. This is because everyone but the rogue had horrible athletics checks and the check to enter the final room without falling was like a 15. So everyone but the rogue ended up falling into the final room and having to fight the final battle starting at half hp. Great design sceme in my mind...hey instead of making this final battle a bit harder lets just make it so that the majority of players will have to start the fight at half hp; where is the fun in that?
And my PCs hate when I do that, even when they know I'm doing it to keep them alive, and I feel the same way when I'm a PC. Its like you're getting beaten really bad by someone at bowling, and then he raises your lane's bumper-rails to help you out. It's like... insulting.
SPOILER:
Anyways, to give a more clear view of what the PC's are fighting, since Abattoir's recollection leaves things out, I'm gonna post the basic stats of the final encounter:
Encounter level 10:
1 lvl 11 Elite Artillery
Show
Paldemar: 178 hp, AC 25, NADs: ~24, 1 AP
turns invisible to attacker every time he's targeted as an immediate interrupt (save ends)
Magic Missile: at-will attack +16 vs. Reflex for 2d4+9
Plunder the Mind's Vault: Recharge 5,6; +6 vs. will; deny access to encounter and daily powers of one PC (save ends)
Lightning Bolt: Recharge 5,6; +18 vs. reflex, 2d6+9 to primary, 1d6+9 to two others.
Shock Sphere: Recharge 5, 6; +18 vs. reflex, all in a 5x5 area take 2d6+9 damage
turns invisible to attacker every time he's targeted as an immediate interrupt (save ends)
Magic Missile: at-will attack +16 vs. Reflex for 2d4+9
Plunder the Mind's Vault: Recharge 5,6; +6 vs. will; deny access to encounter and daily powers of one PC (save ends)
Lightning Bolt: Recharge 5,6; +18 vs. reflex, 2d6+9 to primary, 1d6+9 to two others.
Shock Sphere: Recharge 5, 6; +18 vs. reflex, all in a 5x5 area take 2d6+9 damage
Wow, long post, but yeah, that's kind of what I imagine happening if I don't modify the encounter before hand: me having to totally "cheat" to give the PCs a chance.
And my PCs hate when I do that, even when they know I'm doing it to keep them alive, and I feel the same way when I'm a PC. Its like you're getting beaten really bad by someone at bowling, and then he raises your lane's bumper-rails to help you out. It's like... insulting.
SPOILER:
Anyways, to give a more clear view of what the PC's are fighting, since Abattoir's recollection leaves things out, I'm gonna post the basic stats of the final encounter:
Encounter level 10:
1 lvl 11 Elite ArtilleryShowPaldemar: 178 hp, AC 25, NADs: ~24, 1 AP
turns invisible to attacker every time he's targeted as an immediate interrupt (save ends)
Magic Missile: at-will attack +16 vs. Reflex for 2d4+9
Plunder the Mind's Vault: Recharge 5,6; +6 vs. will; deny access to encounter and daily powers of one PC (save ends)
Lightning Bolt: Recharge 5,6; +18 vs. reflex, 2d6+9 to primary, 1d6+9 to two others.
Shock Sphere: Recharge 5, 6; +18 vs. reflex, all in a 5x5 area take 2d6+9 damage
I have 3 thoughts on this (OK 2 thoughts and a question)
A: yeah that sounds painful
B: Can't wait for my somewhat overconfident players to get there (gonna be awhile since we haven't even really started H1 yet let alone H2).
C: Anything that prevents a strategic withdrawal? (don't have that module on hand to look it up atm)
If you're players are over confident and haven't even finished H1, they are in for a nasty surprise with the Kalarel fight (if you play that right). How did they fair on Iron Tooth?
But even compared to Kalarel, Paldamar is... eeesh. The main thing that prevents a strategic withdrawal is that beating him is the main quest. If you run away, it kind of defeats the purpose.
I think the main thing that bugs me about this fight is that everyone is probably gonna spend 50% or more of the fight unable to use anything but at-wills. Taking away a characters powers in 4th edition isn't challenging... it's fun-draining.
This game is supposed to be fun. This fight is all about taking away most of the PCs more interesting options. (Sorry, you're dazed, and you can't use any power except for your at-will attacks. Hope you make that saving throw... Yeah, I know this is the fourth round this has happened. Wait, where you going? Why you walking away from the table?)
I'm surprised James Wyatt didn't write this. Usually the fun-sapping adventures are his work.
na ill explain this in a nice way.
Ok, For groups thats not use to battling large hard encounters and such would find this possibly a TPK Ending.
But honestly me (One of the biggest experiance players withen 3 towns, but i would rank myself at number 13? maybe a little higher or lower, Played for ...12 Years now?)
And a few other my players ive tought the game to have gotten use to playing in Hard challanges and such.
As such When i played in it and such (I Plan on being a DM And tossing H1 and H2 agest my players and H3) With a group that wasnt As Use to hardcoreish games, We kinda had a problem but i was able to rally the group around and finish it off.
I'll post some of the things i did with my current group at the hobby store (Not my main group, Main group still plays 3E)
If you're players are over confident and haven't even finished H1, they are in for a nasty surprise with the Kalarel fight (if you play that right). How did they fair on Iron Tooth?
But even compared to Kalarel, Paldamar is... eeesh. The main thing that prevents a strategic withdrawal is that beating him is the main quest. If you run away, it kind of defeats the purpose.
I think the main thing that bugs me about this fight is that everyone is probably gonna spend 50% or more of the fight unable to use anything but at-wills. Taking away a characters powers in 4th edition isn't challenging... it's fun-draining.
This game is supposed to be fun. This fight is all about taking away most of the PCs more interesting options. (Sorry, you're dazed, and you can't use any power except for your at-will attacks. Hope you make that saving throw... Yeah, I know this is the fourth round this has happened. Wait, where you going? Why you walking away from the table?)
I'm surprised James Wyatt didn't write this. Usually the fun-sapping adventures are his work.
IronTooth?
the whole kobolt lair?
inside monsters do not go chargein out they wait inside (Says the tactics)
Outside combat isnt that hard We forced the Kobolts to move away from the ****en Magic circle via Warlock
(Group Paladin fighter Warlock Wizard Cleric)
Wizard was able to like auto pwn the whole Minion army without effecting the group (We had a problem with it earlyer in the game)
once we cleared that we kinda didnt use up any encounter powers save 2 (The Wizard used one warlock used one)
So inside battle was kinda easy. People kinda pwned the first wave, Fighter used a burst attack and killed off like 6 Minions in round 1,
We where over with the first wave right when the second wave appared.
Which only was 2 kobolt dragon shields a wyrm prist then iron tooth,
We Tooked out the Dragonshield and Wyrmprist first,
Fighter used Daily villances menace vs iron tooth which helped alot,
The cleric was did use up his 2 healing things in this battle.
But it wasnt very challangeing.
Main problem was just irontooth but it was basicly 5vs1... so we kinda won then rested up
I Think battles should last longer then 2-4 rounds like before, Thus Whats the problem with useing At will powers? Power gamer!
Anyways.
The last battle wasnt super hard,
boundless endurance was beefy for the fighter,
Paladin was able to Dot the Main baddie pretty easy (Used mark then did Eyebite from multyclassing into Warlock) So the fighter just never used his mark on him, And main baddie had a dot on him from 1 round he never was able to lift off.
Fighter tooked on the warriors without much problems and we kind just stayed away from the wight when we notised it wasnt moving away much. and just stayed away from its blast range,
We figured out the Black wall thing attacked so eveyone just had a bow and fired or used Range powers,
well for a while.
Last battle?
Well level 6 characters,
Cleric had Consecrated ground which seemed kinda beefy vs monsters, We ignored the imp sence it was traped in something Thus the nokers kinda got handled easy.
Shield of faith was allso used.
Fighter was useing Unbreakable, which was kinda nice,
i remeber he used rain of steel and some other power, villains menace i think on the statue,
Warth of the gods Paladin (More Cha bonus, he was cha based paladin .. or i should sya I Was sence i was paladin no i didnt do my normal below build)
i dont remeber at all what the warlock used.
i remeber Bigby icy grasp was used by the wizard and quickly became 5 vs 1,
We had some encounter powers left over which we used.
Sure it was hard but once again we where able to quickly make it a 5 vs 1 match thus we where able to swich around (Once again i doted the main baddie with Eyebite) and such once i was able to see him.
Gotta be makeing crap rolls vs it.
At least in my group.
Ph and by all fairness yes our Warlock keept rolling like nat 20's alot, This might help,
but eh. i dont remeber much if any of what powers the warlock used.
Wizard used his ice hold or w/e For a bit enough so that the other mobs died.
Lasted 2 rounds i beleve,
Then me and the fighter kinda just started grappling him to prevent actions while the Cleric Laserd / Healed Warlock did w/e, Think he ended up helping out on the last round randomly.
And Wizard just keep blasting away as well.
Grapple is your friend when its like 5 vs 1, Becouse it makes the other 3 still be able to do things (Like in this case the cleric started healing).
helps prevent some actions going on and such.
And me i just Kinda keep engaging via tossing Rocks at the guy to keep my dot up. (Tho in all fairness i Lost my Bow and started useing a sling)
Ya cleric healed then jumped in and such. was kinda funny watching the whole Grappling going on.
Sure it meant he couldnt move, Which was the nice thing coz then we just got into the right posistion and attacked,
When fighter failed Cleric ended up makeing his attack, Warlock jumped in randomly and like i mentioned he was rolling high.
Now that i remeber how good the Warlock was rolling now it dos come to mind this battle might have been hard without thouse good rolls.
Im going to make me own 5 person level 6 team and try that encountero ut to see how it would have worked.
*SPOILER*
The encounter starts with you teleporting into a room with 3 doors. 2 of the doors are open and one is locked. We proceeded through a side door to find a Bronze Warder, rather than advancing into his room to fight him we decided to fight him from the room we started in, because he couldn't come into it without having to constantly squeeze. After a couple rounds the Warder left the room he was in via another door, and proceeded to enter the room where the final battle takes place.
Smart, Move nme into your battle ground,
Our party then moved to the room that the Bronze warder was in to gain a better view of the room beyond. When we see the final room our hearts sank, not only was there a bronze warder but there were 2 regular monsters (I forget the names about 60 hp average 8 damage a hit and 19 AC) in addition to a shapeshifter (also forget the name, has an attack that is vs will at like +12 or something and makes it so the target cannot use any powers other than at-will powers until they save, once they save they are still dazed until the end of next turn). Basically he has the ability to incapacitate one of your group members almost every round, as long as he doesn't roll poorly.
There is only 1 Broze Warder i just bought the H2 and it states 1 Bronze Warder, WHERE did number 2 pop up?
Lastly, is the final boss, a wizard we had been sent to dispose of. I have to say this is where I completely LOVE (saracasm) the new system of Elite creatures. In previous editions when a Wizard is your enemy you can usually count on the attackers being able to hit the because they don't have insane AC, Fort, and Ref defenses and 180 hp. All of the Wizards defenses were 24+ I believe, his AC was 25 for sure. All the characters in our group have a to hit bonus of about +10-11 (I believe average at 6th), the rogue is the true standout with to hit with a +16-17 when he has combat advantage.
Er, +3 Half level, +2 Magic item, = +5 +2 From weapon ... at least, with +3Mod at least = +10 Yes, But our group at +12-13 To hit, And the Striping of our Warlock, He helped alot,
25/23/24/24. Saving Throws are kinda easy to make so we never had a problem with the Plunder the mind vault. power
So for the final battle we were expected to run into a room with 2 enemies with 170+ hp and AC of 25, one of which has Resist all 5. Both of those enemies average about 15 points of damage a hit as well (the wizard can hit multiple targets), which is about 3-4 hits to a party of 6th level characters and have +14 (Warder) and +16 minimum (Wizard) to hit. The wizard had abilities that made his to hit get up to +18-20 (no one in the party has better than 22 AC). Additionally, the Wizard had an ability, at-will immediate reaction, whenever he gets attacked (by melee or ranged) he can immediately make himself invisible to the attacker. So our rogue who was our saving grace interms of hitting the Wizard would take a -5 penalty to hit. Lastly, in the room where the wizard is fought there is a pillar that is supposed to shoot lasers or something at the PCs, and there are pillars where the Wizard gets to recharge his spells.
Again where did number 2 Broze Warder Come from??? now that im looking at the book, Why was the imp on level 3 With the boss? Something the DM Did i dunno. But the imp was in the cage on level 3, Same area basicly however. We just keep the Doors cloused for for the baddie,
Oh our group was kinda gay and Rested before each level ...
Now, all the being said we did beat the encounter. However, our DM took away the wizards immediate reaction invisibility, and he took out the laser shooting pillar. Also, our DM doesn't really believe in trying to kill PCs, he thinks it is contrary to the nature of the game (despite our desire to have him be more brutal with us). So he does not really make the enemies do the nastiest things they could be doing, quite often he will subsitute a more devastating ability with one that is still effective but doesn't necessarily swing the tide of battle.
Save ends is kinda easy to over come and such,
I have DM'd before, and while I have not DM'd in 4th yet, my feeling is if I was controling those enemies I could have wiped the floor with the PCs so easily it would have made me laugh. I mean unless the PCs are 'mentally challenged' they will probably not charge into the main room, which is all the better for the wizard. Have the bronze warder block the door to the main room and then pepper in spells at the PCs, he has lightning bolt and shocking burst, lightning bolt is 2d6+9 main target and 1d6+9 to 2 secondary targets, shocking burst is 2d6+9 to a burst 2. So with those two abilities and the pretty much guaranteed hit, just take the PCs hps down about 1/4 then use both those abilities in the same round with an action point, my bet is you'll have 1-2 PCs down with that and the rest very close to death. That could probably be accomplished in the first few rounds of combat as well!!
My players where able to deal with the Norkers and the other controller guy Easy peezy, Of course my group rested before each level which was kinda gay i would admit, But Made us get eveything back and fully ready for the next thing (We got paranoid of the battles) thus no problems the thing was the Bronze warder and Paldemar, we kinda learned to lower the numbers as quickly as possible and save the big guns for well Mr Biggie, So when Paldemar and Bronze warder do open doors and such we had alot of our powers ready.
Oh and by the way, the only way we were able to dispatch the wizard effectively, as it was suicide to enter the room he was in. We had our wizard use his (stinking cloud) or what not, basically does 1d10+Int to anyone who starts their turn in the cloud. He went right after the enemy wizard in inititative, so he would move the could to wherever the wizard was; when the wizard activated he would automatically take damage with no required roll. That spell single handedly took the wizard down about 75% of his health, without the other characters even getting involved with fighting the wizard.
Group was Dwarf Fighter Dragon born Paladin (Me) Thifling Warlock, Human cleric and Elf or Eldrein Wizard? (Which had the teleport thing and +2 to int? eledrin right?) so he just kinda did the whole teleport thing,
Oh and we used all our action points on him. and yes by resting i mean we played cards intell we could regain the use of Extended rest ... hehe
For you flamers who might say "Why are you complaining when you won the fight?" again the DM probably could have used more discretion when controlling the Wizard so that he was eventually avoiding the poison cloud. As well as using some of his more devastating powers in certain situations.
I am Kinda a flamer but not for the same reasons. I Admit it. but i enjoy challanges. and my flaming remarks are meant to be Funny jokes, But i cant import Emotion on the internet ...
In closing D&D to me, is supposed to be about having fun, and doing entertaining and heroic things with your characters. This last battle was in no way fun, in fact it was the opposite, it was boring for the DM (because we had to hide in a room and fight defensively) and it was angering for the players because we were completely ineffective. I would seriously like to know what the module designers at Wizards were thinking when they designed this last encounter.
I Kinda consider this power gameing but w/e floats your boat
P.S. In the first module Keep on the Shadowfell, I found it funny because I felt the final battle was outrageous too. Although not as bad as this one, I remember the majority of the party took half their hps in falling damage before the battle even started. This is because everyone but the rogue had horrible athletics checks and the check to enter the final room without falling was like a 15. So everyone but the rogue ended up falling into the final room and having to fight the final battle starting at half hp. Great design sceme in my mind...hey instead of making this final battle a bit harder lets just make it so that the majority of players will have to start the fight at half hp; where is the fun in that?
The fact that the Wight or w/e cant target you then and we kinda surprized him Was nice, So we wernt nearly as high and was ableto make the dc kinda easy by taking 10's and such, But i can see if there sitting ther waiting for you. But normaly the tastics called for "Casting ritual not wanting to be disturbed" And we where up higher when he was paying attiontion to the group. Didnt know we where comming so it allowed us to get in clouse.
some responces in Bold
The +hit of a defender of 6th level could be +14 (+5 for strenght + 3 for weapon + 3 for level + 1 for weapon focus + 2 for magic bonus). If he can get combat advantage the bonus could go to +16 before any circumstance bonus can be added. If the master runs also some optional encounters the party can be of 7th level when they face Paldemar. This will mean some HP more and an encounter power for each player.
This said, the encounter is very difficult (10 lvl with 6-7 level PCs).
I'm gonna start this module soon as my party is going to face Kalarel on Friday. The last encounter seems difficult, anyway it doesn't seems that bad.
The +hit of a defender of 6th level could be +14 (+5 for strenght + 3 for weapon + 3 for level + 1 for weapon focus + 2 for magic bonus). If he can get combat advantage the bonus could go to +16 before any circumstance bonus can be added. If the master runs also some optional encounters the party can be of 7th level when they face Paldemar. This will mean some HP more and an encounter power for each player.
This said, the encounter is very difficult (10 lvl with 6-7 level PCs).
I'm adding in ways for the hazards to be destroyed and also I'm thinking of weakening the numerous attacks that make PCs forget all their powers.
My PCs have a tendency to frequently fail 3+ saves in a row, and it seems that all the "forget you power" attacks are gonna do is frustrate them and sap away fun.
To answer korgoth's question
1) We didn't kill the bronze warder in it's starting room, we got it down to somewhere between 1/2 to 2/3 hitpoints before the GM had it retreat to the main room since we had been "overly" effective in controlling the encounter.
2) I play a Battle Cleric 21 strength, wield a +1 bastard sword and use a shield for AC 22 melee attack bonus of +12, so I could hit Paldemar with a 13 in melee, unfortunately I was too busy with healing and controlling the spiritual hammer to engage him in melee and my ranged attack is much weaker at 8 versus reflex.
3) The imp you refer to was the level 6 controller which was described to our group as a wraith.
The 2 level 3 artillery dropped quickly, they weren't a problem, the controller and Paldemar spent a significant portion of the battle running around and kept our wizard busy moving stinking cloud and flaming sphere active, he eventually dropped the flaming sphere but as Abattior said, the stinking cloud did 75% of the damage to the Paldemar and the level 6 controller. The bronze warder gave the rogue and warlord a tremendous pounding while Paldemar blasted the party.
From my perspective, the GM has to be very careful to pull his punches to avoid a TPK from this encounter. The most frustrating moment in the encounter for me was when I had to remind the GM that the hit Paldemar had just scored actually should be considered a miss because 1's automatically miss. Overall all of the players felt inept at the end of the encounter and the GM was disappointed as well.
As a side note Korgoth, there is a distinct difference between flaming and snide and or whitty remarks and your comments don't cross that threshold
.I am in Abattior's gaming group and I was quite dismayed after that final encounter. In my opinion mmorg's make up for weak AI by making overly powerful encounters, this model shouldn't apply in a pen and paper game where the GM is just as smart as the player.
To answer korgoth's question
1) We didn't kill the bronze warder in it's starting room, we got it down to somewhere between 1/2 to 2/3 hitpoints before the GM had it retreat to the main room since we had been "overly" effective in controlling the encounter.
2) I play a Battle Cleric 21 strength, wield a +1 bastard sword and use a shield for AC 22 melee attack bonus of +12, so I could hit Paldemar with a 13 in melee, unfortunately I was too busy with healing and controlling the spiritual hammer to engage him in melee and my ranged attack is much weaker at 8 versus reflex.
3) The imp you refer to was the level 6 controller which was described to our group as a wraith.
The 2 level 3 artillery dropped quickly, they weren't a problem, the controller and Paldemar spent a significant portion of the battle running around and kept our wizard busy moving stinking cloud and flaming sphere active, he eventually dropped the flaming sphere but as Abattior said, the stinking cloud did 75% of the damage to the Paldemar and the level 6 controller. The bronze warder gave the rogue and warlord a tremendous pounding while Paldemar blasted the party.
From my perspective, the GM has to be very careful to pull his punches to avoid a TPK from this encounter. The most frustrating moment in the encounter for me was when I had to remind the GM that the hit Paldemar had just scored actually should be considered a miss because 1's automatically miss. Overall all of the players felt inept at the end of the encounter and the GM was disappointed as well.
As a side note Korgoth, there is a distinct difference between flaming and snide and or whitty remarks and your comments don't cross that threshold
It sounds like your GM cut back too, if that's all you fought. No Enigma of Vecna denying you your encounter powers? No "hazards" that attack everyone in the room? What about that elite norker berserker?
H2 provides some random encounters, a couple of quests, and plenty of "forced encounters" (i.e. the entire Proving Grounds). My PCs are just this side of 7th, and they will likely level when they defeat the first level of Paldemar's tower, giving them a few more hp, and an encounter power.
The final boss is supposed to be tough, and while Paldemar's encounter seems almost too hard, I don't think it's a guaranteed TPK. Good tactics prevail in 4e, and adventure BBEG fights are supposed to push PCs to their tactical limits.
Paldemar himself is crazy hard, but his allies all have weaknesses:
Norker Slingers: low AC and hp, which is easy pickings for a striker. Two good hits and they're done.
Norker Berserker: high hp, but easy to hit. A wizard with Magic Missile teamed up with a ranged striker should do the trick.
Bronze Warder: This one's tough, but he's relatively slow and can't shift. He should be the controller's main target.
Enigma: Almost everything this guy has is ranged, so lock him down with a defender. He does have one attack that pushes 3, but the Paladin or Fighter mark will keep his attention off more vulnerable characters.
Paldemar: Keep this guy in melee! Invisibility only grants a -5 to hit, and while that's a pain, at least you know where he is until he moves. Not only that, but his only melee attack is his staff, which deals so little damage, you really don't have to worry about it.
As for the room, stay away from the Statue of Vecna! The mosaic on the floor does grant +2 to saving throws, but only for worshipers of Vecna (I would rule that the Bronze Warder can't worship a deity, but your DM may differ). The Idol of Vecna sucks, but staying out of range negates it.
A TPK is definitely possible, but if your PCs are smart, and can figure out who they need to be attacking, they should survive. (On that note, if you've gone through H1, and made it this far in H2, your PCs should know which enemies to attack based on their character's role, and which power to use.)
I ran thunderspire pretty much when it came out for a tough party of 4. I wasn't ready for the difficulty of the last encounter. Fortunately, my players were tactical aces, and they survived (barely). But they were angry, rather than thrilled.
So I'd have to concur with those saying the encounter needs some some tweaking. Personally I'd be loath to remove any of those hp, those that are so much fun for the players to hack through. But there are certain features that need fixing.
The first thing i'd recommend, again to concur with something someone said, give the players some concrete ways to deal with those (give 'em hp and Defs, decide how they target: line of effect or line of sight). The Crystal Pillars aren't so bad, they just buff P's attacks which should (cuz he's the BBEG) hit most of the time. The Symbol is ok, for the same reasons: it buffs but only a bit.
The idol and the statue are the problem. They both are described as having their eyes symbolically prominent. You could decide that the eyes in some way (visible to the players) project their effects from the eyes and require line of sight. The players can then try to take out the eye "projectors" or block them (with a cape, wall of Fog, Hunger of Hadar, etc..). The idol is just damage, the statue is the problem: it attacks everyone on their turn in its area, and dazes them. That's crippling, especially for mobility-specialized strikers.
With P. (I fear to say his name) drop his Defs or trade out the immediate interrupt for an imm interrupt attack instead. An effective AC of 30 is way to high to deal with for a level 7 character. And the players will probably split up so maybe only 1 PC will be on P.
The Warder is an incredible challenge with the other stuff hitting a fan at the same time. Its AC is a problem. My players survived cuz they tag teamed it (Ranger and Taclord), immobilized (Villain's Menace) and pounded on it for 5 rounds. Which was strategy they had cooked up from fighting Warders before, so they knew they had to take it down fast.
There are many effects requiring saves and with a 45% of failure and maybe more then 2 applying to a character in a round so they will probably fail at least one and PCs may spend a round or two wallowing in conditions rather than taking meaningful actions. My players had a pally and the taclord so they could grant each other crucial extra saves.
I guess I'm suggesting not to nerf it too much, and maybe rather than fudging rolls or underplaying the villain's stratetgy, try helping the player's with their strategy (reminding them of their abilities that grant saves) and making quite clear where the threats emanating at them are coming from and how. (You can always secretly fudge if that doesn't work.)
The rest of the denizens in the room aren't all that dangerous. But if your players have some good control powers then can they prevent all the lesser baddies coming down on them at once.
I guess, most of all, know your players' strengths and weaknesses and help them capitalize on them.
Personally I find massively difficult encounters thrilling, on either side of the table. Like I said, my players were initially angry and felt cheated. I was awestruck by their brilliant back-against-the wall teamwork and strategy. When I pointed out how brilliant they had been they cheered up, but I would have liked them to have enjoyed it as much as I did at the time. So, I think really difficult encounters like this can be a blast so long as the players are, particularly in a psychological sense, prepared and willing.
Hope that helps.
I am sure that our tactics left room for improvement, but as a whole I felt our group played the encounter fairly well. As a GM, if you play the encounter smart and utilize all of the npc's and room abilities to the best of the abilities, you are pretty much guaranteed a TPK. Basically it is up to the GM to determine how much to dumb down the npcs. So I do not consider the encounter balanced, since PC tactics really aren't teh deciding factor on victory in the encounter, moreso if the GM decided to pull the NPC's punches or not.
For Kali-ma, I would recommend giving the PC's the opportunity to make 7th, it'll help a little, but there aren't any bonuses to hit or defense from that level. Our GM only gave us magic items from the module so we didn't have +2 weapons to help.
The enigma is what I refered to as the wight, it was annoying but our wizard kept it on the run. Our warlord/striker were focused on the warder and other melee type npc's that were in the encounter.
Also, how well did your group make use of action points? If you know that you've entered the "boss fight" of the adventure then you probably want to burn those APs early on to whittle down the opposition, unless you have some reason to expect that reinforcements are going to arrive partway through.
(Though many groups still seem to have the problem of forgetting about APs...)
Level 7 does give you an additional encounter power though, which can be a big help in a tough fight.
Also, how well did your group make use of action points? If you know that you've entered the "boss fight" of the adventure then you probably want to burn those APs early on to whittle down the opposition, unless you have some reason to expect that reinforcements are going to arrive partway through.
(Though many groups still seem to have the problem of forgetting about APs...)
Also, you are aware that you can only spend 1 AP per encounter, right?
As for AP's I know I burnt mine to when I was going in to rescue the warlord from the bronze guardian, unfortunately I missed with my healing strike which is always disappointing.
I supose I just want to remind GM's to consider the relative strenght of the PC's against the npc's before just allowing them to charge into the encounter. Stinking cloud won the day for us, if it weren't for that we would have been totally wiped out.
Honestly, with my group, I've frequently had to make things tougher. A Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard group, they have been walking through most of H2. Some bad luck with the blood pool room and unluck random encounters on the way back to the Hall were their biggest challenge yet.
This series of modules is designed with the 'default' group in mind. That is, 2 defenders, a striker, a leader, a controller. If you go in with 3 leaders, a striker, and a controller, you're going to have trouble. Encounters can be designed to provide the right level of challenge for your group, but this module series makes certain assumptions about the group and keeps the difficulty level high.
Honestly, with my group, I've frequently had to make things tougher. A Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard group, they have been walking through most of H2. Some bad luck with the blood pool room and unluck random encounters on the way back to the Hall were their biggest challenge yet.
That's great and all, but this isn't about all the other encounter of H2. It's about that one final encounter.
That's great and all, but this isn't about all the other encounter of H2. It's about that one final encounter.
Yes, sorry, should have clarified. They've finished H2. The last encounter took all they had, and there could have been two deaths from failed death saves, but they pulled it off. This is a group of characters that has run from level 1 at the begining of H1 all the way through, with no side treks, treasure and encounters exactly as written (with some difficulty bumps to keep a challenge at times), and no extra experience beyond what is given in the modules. They have had two deaths, during the aforementioned series of unfortunate events, and obtained ressurections at-cost as they were working for the Mages. We're actually moving away from the modules at this point, starting over at level 1 on a custom campaign I'm working on. They want something a little more challenging, a little more tailored to their group, and a little more interconnected and interesting.
Is that more useful information?
We just ran through this and one of things I noticed was that our DM did not play the invisibility as an immediate interrupt. He played it as a free action (so if three people attacked Pad in melee, he was invisible to all three). We won but not without losses. The player whose character died was upset after the battle because of this. It also didn't help that the warder kept attacking him while he was unconscious until he hit neg. bloodied, even though more active threats were engaged with the warder.
How do others play that? Does the monster know the difference between a PC that's down and one that's dead? If I'm down, do I have an obligation to tell the DM when I switch over to dead, or can I let him continue to mutilate my body to suck up attacks and continue defending even in death?
Yes, I'm not stupid. "Burn your APs" was in reference to the whole party, not one character.
In T3 the fight is hard, but some things are not so bad: Paldemar's invisibility power is an immediate power, usable only once per turn, not on everyone attacking him. His major power is Plunder the Mind's Vault, but it will recharge only every 3rd round on average (and he can't take out more than one PC's powers with it, unless a lot of bad rolls are involved). Much depends on where the battle takes place, too. If the players can contain him in his room (or keep him outside the main hall), he has only his high AC to save him.
(He was as good as dead once the rogue and fighter managed to get within melee range; not very hard, one could fey step, the other was "warlorded". The fighter going nova did around 90 damage (including warlord and WoG bonuses), you can imagine the rogue.)
- The whole party can get royally screwed by the emissary of vecna for the rest of the encounter. While i think the party should have skill challenges that have a lasting impact this sounds a little harsh. And the skill challenge is just stupid, they can use 3 skills (all wizard skills btw) an infinite number of times? That isn't a skill challenge is the wizard getting to flex their already powerful abilities.
- The pillars in this room are hazards, but provide zero xp. This room is much more difficult than the xp gives it credit for. I allowed these to be destroyed to force the enigmas out of their hiding places.
- The bronze warders are extremely powerful in closed quarters (which is most of the second floor) along with other hazards as well that provide no xp despite making it more difficult (but at least they alchemy tables work against the warder too).
- The adventure seems to think the party shouldn't or can't rest (it never says it explicitly but doesn't give a single word of what paldemar does if they clear the first two floors and then have to rest before the last floor.
- The last floor has additional hazards that cause damage and status effects on their own turns but do not provide xp. It is one thing if you can turn the hazards against the monsters but these are just dangerous to the pcs.
In conclusion, it needs some tweaking but all in all the whole paldemar leg seems very tacked onto the story. It should just end with the gnolls.