It just seemed badly written, or maybe a shoddy editor, whoever he was he should be moved to a new job as there was crucial information missing.
This was easily the weekest module of the series, I HIGHLY reccomend that you skip it.
After our 2nd TPK in boss fights, I had to post here and see if anyone else played in the module (as written, no softball GM) and also had the same experience?
were did you tpk?
It just seemed badly written, or maybe a shoddy editor, whoever he was he should be moved to a new job as there was crucial information missing.
what info did you feel was missing?
A combination of
-assuming PCs think X, and progressing the plot only if they do. (when none of the PCs even think X for an instant)
- Overly hard fights for a 5 person party
-Unclear trap mechanics/hazard
Made me really disappointed with running them. I kept getting excited every time a player would bring one, and say "this time it looks really cool, lets give this one a shot" and we would set down to play. Unfortunatly after the first hour we realized it was just as bad as the pervious one.
That said, I am not going to DM H3 for my group, because I prefer a little more story and plot in my adventures. Nonetheless, I will probably scavenge some encounters for my own scripts.
So - what did your group look like in regard to classes and levels? And in what encounters did you bite the dust?
The bosses were tough, but it was the traps which killed you. And you had no way of escaping the traps (as written)
I got to read the encounter after we died, and it was poorly designed in that 1 trap only shut off when you killed the big boss -oh did I mention the trap kept you from engaging him? The second trap did 4d6 per round if you were in it -oh did I mention he kept knocking you in it? Oh, and also if you missed a skill check you didn't know what would shut it off. Oh and when you did find out what shut it off, you had to use your encounter or daily powers ON THE TRAP and not the big bad guy to shut it off...
etc. etc. etc.
Again...skip this one in the series, the other two were fine, after you figured out you need to increase the treasure that the module gives out. But of course, they didn't write that note in the module either.
And a last rant... I don't need a book of crappy pictures in my module. Please just write more detailed instructions in the encounter and use the extra pages for that. Thanks...
Dead Dead Dead Dead....it was so frustrating.
Since I don't know how to hide spoilers, the only thing I can describe is that we died on the second and third floor Boss fights.
The bosses were tough, but it was the traps which killed you. And you had no way of escaping the traps (as written)
I got to read the encounter after we died, and it was poorly designed in that 1 trap only shut off when you killed the big boss -oh did I mention the trap kept you from engaging him? The second trap did 4d6 per round if you were in it -oh did I mention he kept knocking you in it? Oh, and also if you missed a skill check you didn't know what would shut it off. Oh and when you did find out what shut it off, you had to use your encounter or daily powers ON THE TRAP and not the big bad guy to shut it off...
etc. etc. etc.
Again...skip this one in the series, the other two were fine, after you figured out you need to increase the treasure that the module gives out. But of course, they didn't write that note in the module either.
And a last rant... I don't need a book of crappy pictures in my module. Please just write more detailed instructions in the encounter and use the extra pages for that. Thanks...
Dead Dead Dead Dead....it was so frustrating.
Would you mind referencing the encounter? My copy of Pyramid of Shadows has no trap that does 4d6 damage per round, nor do the 2nd or 3rd floor boss locations contain traps.
Toppling the menhirs ends the hazard, as does killing the monster, whatever comes first.
He might also refer to N3, which looks as if it could be tough.
I suppose he refers to T5 when he mentions the trap doing 4d6. The hazard there attacks all defenses and does 1d6 per defense hit, so that's probably where the 4d6 come from - it's highly unlikely that an attack +13 hits all defenses every time though (and it is only one attack roll compared to all defenses, not four of them either).
Toppling the menhirs ends the hazard, as does killing the monster, whatever comes first.
He might also refer to N3, which looks as if it could be tough.
OK, that does look pretty deadly. But it should be noted that the trap damages any creature within 2 squares, so creative players could use powers to push or slide the monster closer to the trap as well.
Also, there's a little too much charging into danger in 4e for my tastes, players get themselves into problems because they are not cautious enough.
I suppose he refers to T5 when he mentions the trap doing 4d6. The hazard there attacks all defenses and does 1d6 per defense hit, so that's probably where the 4d6 come from - it's highly unlikely that an attack +13 hits all defenses every time though (and it is only one attack roll compared to all defenses, not four of them either).
Toppling the menhirs ends the hazard, as does killing the monster, whatever comes first.
Yeah, unfortunatley I think the response to your frustratoin Zahnb is, "You're doing it wrong."
Granted, some of the encounters required me to read them a few times before I was able to wrap my head around them. Once I did however, everything seemd to fall in palce.
Also, pulling the punches from time to time may be a nessecary tool that you need to employ. Especially if your players are like mine who all feel that the story revolves around the characters, and that the prospect of rolling up a new character mid-campaign holds zero interest or fun.
Honestly tho, this all trancends the edition (and game for that matter). If you feel that something needs to be tweaked or blunted a bit, then do so. I think it even says something to that effect in the DMG.
Are there any solid 3PP adventures for 4e with some good RP elements yet?
I changed the over-all plot to be more of a quest given to the players by Lady of Pain in Sigil, who provided the portal to reach the pyramid, and made it 'a realm unto itself' more feasible.
My players spend their time popping back and forth between Nentir Vale and Sigil now, and things are really working well.
The preview article I read for H3 months ago made it soound really cool, so maybe I'll just steal the premise there instead of buying the adventure. It's not a huge surprise though, I bought H1 and after reading it was shocked at how poor it was, I'm not sure I'll buy another WoTC produced adventure.
Are there any solid 3PP adventures for 4e with some good RP elements yet?
/shrug See I really like H1. Granted its a bit combat heavy, but everything else is good.
Also, so far P1 and P2 are good stories, quite a bit of RP oppertunity in P2 I would say as well.
All a matter of opinion I guess.
However, I would submit that you should buy the module anyway, and tweak it to your liking rather than pass it up.
Doing so supports your FLGS as well as WotC.
I remember several modules as being very good, but that may be the warm glow of the memory of fun sessions. I doubt there will be many like Ravenloft, Oasis of the White Palm, Egg of the Phoenix or The Tree of Life, though.
For instance, a 'trap' that does something unpleasant to any creature that walks past it, but can be destroyed or disarmed, is fine. Conversely, one that does something action-denying to any PC anywhere near it, but ignores the monsters, and can't be shut down or destroyed - not so fine.
I'd rather enjoyed H1 to H3, I think H2 was the best of them all. I liked the fact that the group could face "mini-dungeons" and go back to the Seven-Pillared hall for rest and RP with the locals.
About H3, yes, it was a gygaxian dungeon crawl, but the encounters were kinda fun, and the party "loved to hate" Karavakos.
"We gotta kill him again?!?"
Also loads of fun were had with Vyrellis "Sir Galen (eladrin warlord, carrying the orb) pls tell to the uncouth Dragonman (dragonborn fighter) to shield us from danger, if you please" *pout
I've actually had Vyrellis appear in mortal form at the end of the adventure, and ask the players to bring her back home, which will tie nicely with P1 - King of the Trollhaunt.
My greatest complain about H3 was actually the end fight. Our warlock uses the rod of corruption/rod of reaving combo, and all those minions went down pretty fast. Karavakos himself didn't really have any cool at-will/recharge abilities, so the fight was quite boring/easy.
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That first room was tougher than it had to be, though. The text didn't specify if the PCs "appeared" in the pit or got dropped in. A quick vote had a unanimous vote to drop in from a safe height. We randomized where the PCs would fall, and the drow rogue wound up falling into the waiting jaws of a carrion crawler. Every attempt to get out of the pit was an abyssmal failure. Sure, the d-born could have gotten out with the help of the ettin, but the remarks like "It's head would looks goods on our wall..." kept him from accepting any help.
Bloodied and battered after a hard-won victory, they decided that a room with so many doorways wasn't safe. They headed north into the rat room. Yeah. The team now hates rats.
Bloodied and battered after a hard-won victory, they decided that a room with so many doorways wasn't safe. They headed north into the rat room. Yeah. The team now hates rats.
My biggest gripe with the adventure comes from the fact that every encounter was practically tailormade for for the monsters in question. I know D&D is a fantasy game and you need suspension of disbelief, but the adventure was pushing it really.
Environmental dangers and such can be cool and give a whole encounter a nice twist.
Its logical for monsters to either adapt or chose an enviroment which suits them. But room upon room of encounters like that?
The ridiculous pace at the change of scenery also didn't help.
The fact that you went from a forest to a tomb with undead to a seemingly arcane laboratory just by picking the next door down the hallway so to speak broke the immersion for me when it's supposed to be one enclosed "building/space"
So far I enjoyed 4ed and the 2 adventures that preceded this one, but this one soured up the experience. Luckily PHB2 gave me a new focus.
I doubt there will be many like Ravenloft, Oasis of the White Palm, Egg of the Phoenix or The Tree of Life, though.
Sadly those days of quality are long past.
TSR produced some crap, but there were also alot of gems.
The closest WoTC has ever come was with Red Hand of Doom. 8 years of the 3.x system & only 1 original adventure that'll stand the test of time (not counting "new" versions Ravenloft etc - I doubt the WoTC staff could have written such a thing if they didn't have Hickman's version to work from)....
And the 4e modules aren't looking to break that trend.
BUT H3... I would not submit my players to that. Instead I've decided to keep H3 encounters and plans as mini-dungeons to use latter on. This decision left me with a «leveling gap» (7-10) to be able to play the P series... Arg!
So I've started the P series at level 7 changing encounter levels and all...
You have to be ok with the specially crafted inter-dimensional prison crafted for the mad-wizard whose psyche was sundered into many parts. The prison (which is like a mini-hell) adapts to fit the creatures trapped within, taking on elements of their persona. Some people don't like this reason which was obviously made up so Mearls could throw stuff all into the same dungeon.
Mike Mearls is an encounter crafting genius though. Yeah they're way meta-gamed and staged but that's what you have to be into to play this adventure.
This module also happens to have the most opportunities for role-playing, diplomacy, and faction alliance making of all the 4th edition adventures to date. The NPC characters are pretty well detailed. They each have motivations and personalities etc.
People either love or hate Tomb of Horrors because of the save or die traps. The TOH lovers complain that 4th edition blunts the danger and dumbs things down. This adventure is very deadly but you have a chance to react and save yourself if you're quick thinking. Your DM sounded a little too harsh and they should possibly give you clues if you kept dying all the time.
When I first read about the mega dungeon with different monsters in each room, I personally hated it. Then I read about the whole "interdimensional prison" and how people get there and start influencing their immediate surroundings.
My mind just went BAM! and I kept thinking of this hell-like, dream-like prison, where PCs actually HATE being there and would do anything to get out. Images of claustrophobic movies come to mind: The Chronicles of Riddick, Hellraiser, Aliens 3 and 4, The Cube... heck, even Prison Break!
As I said I didn´t start DMing it yet, but the way I see it this one has a lot of potential to be a great prison adventure. Obviously, the module doesn´t present you with the roleplaying atmosphere and mood (none of the 4e modules do), but that is also a job for the DM and the players.
Also, I had great experiences with "prison modules". One of the best adventures I´ve ever DMed kept my players in a subterranean labyrintn of Vecna for many sessions, with a Lich on their heels and a Beholder on the loose. When they FINALLY managed to get out, the victory cheering and the sighs of relief were priceless. My players still remember that adventure fondly.
It may be a good adventure after all! ;)
Cheers!