Massive: You have a 2 square by 2 square fighting space. You take no penalties to attack for squeezing, and do not grant combat advantage when you squeeze. While squeezing you have a speed of 4 (actually, 3/4th your regular speed rounded down, but I am writing this entry for a race with a speed of 6).
I would then make the Half-Giant look something like this:
Half-Giant (Goliath)
Racial Traits
Average Height: 8’8”-9’9”
Average Weight: 580-740 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonus: +2 Athletics, +2 Endurance
Mercurial Personality: You have a +1 racial bonus to Will.
Massive: You have a 2 square by 2 square fighting space. For the purpose of squeezing you are considered to be a large sized creature. However, you take no penalties to attack from squeezing, and do not grant combat advantage when you squeeze. Additionally, while squeezing you have a speed of 4. For the purposes of the grab and bull rush rules you are also considered to be a large creature.
Giant’s Endurance: You gain the Giant’s Endurance racial encounter power (this power is identical to the Goliath's racial encounter power).
Does something like this look balanced? Basically, powerful athlete is given up for massive.
Certainly making something large size, with the ability to wield large weapons, and a constant reach of 2, would be overpowered. And "oversized," with its ability to use large weapons, would be overpowered as well.
If you think that those are the major reasons why a large size PC race would be overpowered, I'm afraid that you're mistaken. The major problems with large size when it comes to why its inappropriate for PCs stem directly from the fact that it takes up more than one square. Basically, the very property of granting more adjacent spaces is problematic enough on its own to prevent large size from ever being balanced on a PC race.
But what about a feature of the large size that is fairly "power neutral," in the sense that it can be both a benefit and a penalty depending on the tactics used by the PCs and the NPCs? Taking up a 2 by 2 square fighting space grants some benefits (increased close burst size, can threaten 12 squares instead of 8, and you control 3 extra squares that enemies can not move into), but it also grants a number of penalties (12 people can attack you, and instead of having 3 pairs of flankers able to attack you at a time you can have 5 pairs of flankers able to attack you at a time, and when attacking an NPC in melee you take up one extra spot that an ally could be using to attack as well).
Balance does not work like that. You can't just try to balance bonuses with penalties because that will fail. That sort of balancing was thrown out after 3.5 and isn't supposed to make any appearance in 4E exactly because it doesn't do what you want it to do. What you want it to theoretically do is to provide enough penalties that the bonuses are effectively cancelled out, but what actually happens in practice is that people will simply play characters that take maximum advantage of the bonuses while finding as many ways as possible to minimize the disadvantages. What do you do when you have a race that gives +2 STR but -2 INT? You play a character that uses STR but doesn't care about INT. You squeeze every drop of benefit out of the bonus while completely avoiding any options that would even bring the penalty into play. Furthermore, this has the problem that your original racial power draft had of being almost totally useless to non-melee characters, which is not good racial design, only worse because at least the racial power had a push effect that ranged characters might have been able to make use of once in a blue moon.
Your idea with the racial power before was a bit flawed in its execution but at least had the potential to go somewhere balanced eventually if done correctly. Taking up a 2x2 square all of the time is never going to be balanced. I hate to sound like a negative nancy again, and I do want to help you, but I'm not going to lie to you.
but it also grants a number of penalties (12 people can attack you, and instead of having 3 pairs of flankers able to attack you at a time you can have 5 pairs of flankers able to attack you at a time, and when attacking an NPC in melee you take up one extra spot that an ally could be using to attack as well).
Having more enemies attacking them (and enemies being physically unable to get by) is exactly what a Defender wants, and there are very easy to acquire feats that prevent enemies from benefitting from flanking, including Uncanny Dodge, Eyes in the Back of Your Head, and Ubiquitous Shield, at least one of which any Defender is likely to have.
A PC taking up 2x2 squares cannot end well. Don't do this.
Which brings me to a question:
Why do you need the Half Giant to be mechanically larger than other races? Why can't they just be described larger? I just don't really get the need.
Take a look at the Small races and see how WotC thinking like that (that they must be mechanically smaller, rather than just described smaller) led to screwing over a large number of races.
Oh, and if 12 people can attack you, you can have 6 pairs of flankers. ;)
Oh, and if 12 people can attack you, you can have 6 pairs of flankers. ;)
You think that is the worst of my typo? Take a look at the sentence again. Not only did I type 5 instead of 6, but I typed 3 instead of 4. 8 people surround you, you can have 4 sets of flankers. Now, how I managed to consistently hit 1 number less than I intended, and how I didn't notice it, is way beyond me.
Anyways, I am going to come back to this thread tomorrow. I have some major issues with the claim that simply being 2 squares by 2 squares is overpowered in and of itself, and I don't think there is a problem with the way small characters were handled, but I am exhausted. I need sleep. So, we will discuss tomorrow.
If you think that those are the major reasons why a large size PC race would be overpowered, I'm afraid that you're mistaken. The major problems with large size when it comes to why its inappropriate for PCs stem directly from the fact that it takes up more than one square. Basically, the very property of granting more adjacent spaces is problematic enough on its own to prevent large size from ever being balanced on a PC race.
I really don't agree with you. If you care to make an argument instead of just claiming it is so I will listen though...
Balance does not work like that. You can't just try to balance bonuses with penalties because that will fail. That sort of balancing was thrown out after 3.5 and isn't supposed to make any appearance in 4E exactly because it doesn't do what you want it to do. What you want it to theoretically do is to provide enough penalties that the bonuses are effectively cancelled out, but what actually happens in practice is that people will simply play characters that take maximum advantage of the bonuses while finding as many ways as possible to minimize the disadvantages. What do you do when you have a race that gives +2 STR but -2 INT? You play a character that uses STR but doesn't care about INT. You squeeze every drop of benefit out of the bonus while completely avoiding any options that would even bring the penalty into play. Furthermore, this has the problem that your original racial power draft had of being almost totally useless to non-melee characters, which is not good racial design, only worse because at least the racial power had a push effect that ranged characters might have been able to make use of once in a blue moon.
And I don't agree with this either. You can ignore penalties to stats by building a character that doesn't need those stats. You can not build a melee a character that can ignore the tactical problems that being large brings alongside it. It doesn't matter how you build a character, the fact that 3 people can all flank you together (meaning you don't need even numbers of people to flank you anymore) is a disadvantage. The fact that two extra pairs of people can flank you is a disadvantage. The fact that 4 extra people can attack you is a disadvantage. And unlike disadvantages in stats, these can't just be ignored. Of course, a party can play in a manner that tries to set up the field of battle in its favor. But, as a DM, I can do the same. Considering the fact that I make the terrain, I actually have an easier time of it than he players do. Saying that a player will just be able to ignore the penalties of taking up a 2 square by 2 square fighting space strikes me as being counter-intuitive. Maybe I am missing something...
but it also grants a number of penalties (12 people can attack you, and instead of having 3 pairs of flankers able to attack you at a time you can have 5 pairs of flankers able to attack you at a time, and when attacking an NPC in melee you take up one extra spot that an ally could be using to attack as well).
Having more enemies attacking them (and enemies being physically unable to get by) is exactly what a Defender wants, and there are very easy to acquire feats that prevent enemies from benefitting from flanking, including Uncanny Dodge, Eyes in the Back of Your Head, and Ubiquitous Shield, at least one of which any Defender is likely to have.
A PC taking up 2x2 squares cannot end well. Don't do this.
Which brings me to a question:
Why do you need the Half Giant to be mechanically larger than other races? Why can't they just be described larger? I just don't really get the need.
Take a look at the Small races and see how WotC thinking like that (that they must be mechanically smaller, rather than just described smaller) led to screwing over a large number of races.
Oh, and if 12 people can attack you, you can have 6 pairs of flankers. ;)
See, I disagree with you on philosophic principles here. I like what WotC did with small races in 4e. I kind of wish they had given the small size some sort of minor advantage as well (+1 to Reflex or something), but they ended up building that sort of advantage into the stat block of any race of small size... so really, I am ok with what they did. And I do feel that mechanics should model the narrative of the story. That is the whole point of roleplaying games. When a roleplaying game stops doing that it stops being a roleplaying game and becomes a board game. At that point in time, it stops being a game I want to play (as a roleplaying game). Thankfully, I don't feel 4e has done that. I actually really enjoy 4e. And I don't believe that a 2 square by 2 square fighting base can't work in 4e. Certainly, permanent reach and threatening reach are a little more problematic, as is the ability to wield large sized weapons, but a massive character would get none of that.
See, I disagree with you on philosophic principles here. I like what WotC did with small races in 4e.
You like that they penalized small race's weapon choice for no reason and gave them no compensation whatsoever?
Giving them a weapon restriction doesn't really simulate anything either, since what it ends up doing is making them deal less damage with weapons. Damage is already totally arbitrary and non-simulatory, since it interacts with the system for hit points, which are themselves, arbitrary and non-simulatory.
In other words, the penalty for being small is 100% mechanical and has no basis in game world reality.
I kind of wish they had given the small size some sort of minor advantage as well (+1 to Reflex or something), but they ended up building that sort of advantage into the stat block of any race of small size...
I don't see the advantages for say, the Halfling or Gnome, but if you do, I guess that's cool.
so really, I am ok with what they did. And I do feel that mechanics should model the narrative of the story. That is the whole point of roleplaying games. When a roleplaying game stops doing that it stops being a roleplaying game and becomes a board game.
On the other hand, I realize that life isn't fair, but fun games must be. So, you have to take some liberties and abstractions.
And I don't believe that a 2 square by 2 square fighting base can't work in 4e.
Then, why, do you think, has it not been done already? The earliest power that can even replicate such a thing is epic. This is clearly a big deal issue.
Certainly, permanent reach and threatening reach are a little more problematic, as is the ability to wield large sized weapons, but a massive character would get none of that.
Tell that to an implement using class. They could not care less about reach and weapon size, but they would drool over significantly larger close burst spells.
There's also the fact that permanent reach is attainable already in the system by the Goliath with a Paragon Path, and Threatening Reach is also given in late heroic/early paragon in various incarnations. On the other hand, increasing your size to 2x2 is not done until epic with, I believe only a single swordmage power (this is by memory, though, so don't sue me here) and an epic destiny feature for the Beast Form focused druid.
Taking up more space in a game where tactical positioning is so important is a tremendously big deal. Especially for a defender or close burst user. The downsides are just not sufficient.
You like that they penalized small race's weapon choice for no reason and gave them no compensation whatsoever?
Giving them a weapon restriction doesn't really simulate anything either, since what it ends up doing is making them deal less damage with weapons. Damage is already totally arbitrary and non-simulatory, since it interacts with the system for hit points, which are themselves, arbitrary and non-simulatory.
In other words, the penalty for being small is 100% mechanical and has no basis in game world reality.
We will have to agree to disagree. The mechanic, like all of the 4e mechanics, is certainly abstract. But telling small characters that they can't wield the largest of weapons certainly does manage to fulfill a narrative nod to their small size.
I don't see the advantages for say, the Halfling or Gnome, but if you do, I guess that's cool.
I certainly do see advantages to those races. They are very potent races to play. Not the best choice for two-handed weapon wielding characters... but I am ok with that.
On the other hand, I realize that life isn't fair, but fun games must be. So, you have to take some liberties and abstractions.
That is fine. You are welcome to that opinion. For the most part I agree. But when the (RP) game stops modeling the narrative it is telling, I stop wanting to play the (RP) game.
Then, why, do you think, has it not been done already?
Because some players make such a big deal about it? A big deal that I do not think is justified. Because the developers never considered making someone take up a 2 square by 2 square space without giving them the other benefits of being large? Any number of possible reasons.
The earliest power that can even replicate such a thing is epic. This is clearly a big deal issue.
The epic level powers that do this also grant other benefits. And the designers themselves have noted that some of the things that they relegated to higher tiers probably should not have been... this is why a number of paragon tier/epic tier feats are being brought down to heroic tier with the essentials line products.
Tell that to an implement using class. They could not care less about reach and weapon size, but they would drool over significantly larger close burst spells.
Unfortunately, they are not going to drool over the other features of the Half-Giant stat block. So, it sounds like what I am doing gives people a reason to play a half-giant as a spellcaster despite really poor spellcasting stats, while still leaving half-giants as a primarily melee based race. Excellent!
Taking up more space in a game where tactical positioning is so important is a tremendously big deal. Especially for a defender or close burst user. The downsides are just not sufficient.
I don't agree. Especially considering the fact that along with the downsides, I also removed the Powerful Athlete racial feature.
If you think that those are the major reasons why a large size PC race would be overpowered, I'm afraid that you're mistaken. The major problems with large size when it comes to why its inappropriate for PCs stem directly from the fact that it takes up more than one square. Basically, the very property of granting more adjacent spaces is problematic enough on its own to prevent large size from ever being balanced on a PC race.
I really don't agree with you. If you care to make an argument instead of just claiming it is so I will listen though...
Like Dave, I would also like to hear the reasons for this.
Unlike Dave, I do personally disagree with what was done with small races in 4e (and I don't really have a problem with large creatures being simply described as such). That being said, I still just don't understand why a 2x2 creature is imbalanced.
Pros:
-Close burst attacks cover ~50% more area
-Blocks/hinders enemy movement over a larger area
Cons:
-Easier to flank
-harder to move without being blocked/attacked
In general, I'd say it pretty much cancels out. However, a defender-type character benefits more, while a ranged character suffers.
It comes down to the actually important things about game balance:
-Alternative A should not be so clearly superior to alternate B (C, D, E...) that it's the only logical choice for mission X.
-Alternative A should not be so inferior to alternative B (C, D, E...) in missions other than X that it will never get used for anything but X.
With a STR/CON base a large race will really only be useful for melee defender roles, since everything in it works towards that and now against other roles. It will, however, most likely be clearly superior to every other race in that role!
Interestingly a, say, DEX/WIS large race would pretty much only suffer from the cons of large size - making it unbalanced in the other direction...
However a temporary size increase isn't unbalancing in itself. The character will temporarly get a bit more striking area and block the enemy more effectively, that's just a bit more controller-style bonus than usual for racial powers.
It will really suck for ranged characters thought, since they'll never benefit from it at all. And I'm am even stronger proponent than most that all races should be resonably playable in all roles!
So I'd go with a variant of the "1 turn per encounter growth", but make it even more impressive!
Giant Stature
Encounter, Personal
Minor Action
Until the start of your next turn you grow to large size. If there is not enough space for you to grow the smallest possible number of medium or larger creatures around you must shift 1 square to make room, if they cannot shift you push them, if you cannot push them the use of your power fails.
While large you gain one extra squre reach and all your attacks are increased one die size. You also suffer a -1 penalty to all defenses.
This gives it a generally useful bonus as even ranged strikers will get a damage boost, even if they don't get anything else. Melee characters will benefit more, but also be harder hit by the defense penalty.
I also don't agree that this race will be the best melee defenders. I think races like dwarves, mul, or warforged are at least as appealing as defenders as this race is. They get plenty of benefits that this race does not, and probably have more staying power. Having 12 people capable of attacking you, and having your enemies flank you easier, is a mixed benefit as a defender. On one hand you will be able to draw aggro more easily, and this really does help you defend your party better. On the other hand you will get hit a whole lot more often, and you will drop in combat a whole lot more quickly.
I have gotten a bunch of negative feedback in this thread. But I have gotten a bunch of positive feedback on the similar thread I made in the Dark Sun forums. I think I am going to playtest this one and decide for myself in game. The arguments that this would be overpowered just ring hollow to my ears. I might be wrong. I fully admit that! But I am just not seeing it right now.
If you think that those are the major reasons why a large size PC race would be overpowered, I'm afraid that you're mistaken. The major problems with large size when it comes to why its inappropriate for PCs stem directly from the fact that it takes up more than one square. Basically, the very property of granting more adjacent spaces is problematic enough on its own to prevent large size from ever being balanced on a PC race.
I really don't agree with you. If you care to make an argument instead of just claiming it is so I will listen though...
You actually pretty much make the argument for me in the next part when you show how the larger base has so many significant advantages and disadvantages. Once you realize that trying to balance such significant advantages with such significant disadvantages doesn't work the way that it should, then it becomes obvious why a larger base is inherently inappropriate to permanently grant to a race.
You can not build a melee a character that can ignore the tactical problems that being large brings alongside it.
No, but you can easily minimize those problems and even reverse them into benefits themselves.
It doesn't matter how you build a character, the fact that 3 people can all flank you together (meaning you don't need even numbers of people to flank you anymore) is a disadvantage. The fact that two extra pairs of people can flank you is a disadvantage. The fact that 4 extra people can attack you is a disadvantage. And unlike disadvantages in stats, these can't just be ignored.
But what it I play a character that wants to be surrounded by as many foes as possible? A characters that would love for enemies to have extra incentive to attack them, extra incentive like easier flanking? Like, say, a Defender? You know, a Fighter, Paladin, Sword-Mage, Warden, or Battlemind? One entire fifth of the existing playable classes? That's not even something difficult to do. That's a lot of characters for which these supposed disadvantages are actually quite the opposite.
Of course, a party can play in a manner that tries to set up the field of battle in its favor. But, as a DM, I can do the same. Considering the fact that I make the terrain, I actually have an easier time of it than he players do.
"It's not unabalnced because the DM can just go out of their way to adjust the game to make it balanced" is an old fallacy on these boards, I believe that it was called the Oberoni Fallacy. The simple fact that the DM has to go out of their way to make something balanced in the context of their game proved that it wasn't balanced to begin with.
I have gotten a bunch of negative feedback in this thread. But I have gotten a bunch of positive feedback on the similar thread I made in the Dark Sun forums.
That's the Dark Sun Forum. This is the Home Brew Forum. Absolutely no offense at all meant to the Dark Sun Focum, but they probably don't have as much experience with home brews as we do over here. We over here on the Home Brew Focus are probably next only to the Character Optimization Forum when it comes to experience in ability to judge what is balanced and well designed, especially when it comes to races, which we get a lot of.
There is no easy way to turn the negatives of a 2 square by 2 square fighting base into benefits, except for not engaging in combat.
And noting that I control the terrain is not a fallacy. I do. I always strugle to make terrain intresting and tactical. It is my job as the DM.
I thank you for your opinions. You have helped me shape my own. But in this case, I don't agree with the popular wisdom of this board. I don't think that a 2 square by 2 square fighting base, on its own, is as broken as you are claiming (or, in fact, broken at all). I agree that large size, with all the benefits that large size brings, is broken. I agree that oversized is broken. But a 2 square by 2 square fighting base on its own? I think it is actually more of a penalty than a good thing. Combined with the other features I implemented in the massive quality, I think it is just enough of a good thing to replace powerful athlete.
So we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I find that the popular wisdom of the Dark Sun board more closely mirrors my own opinions. I am going to playtest this (assuming one of the people playing wants to play a half-giant) and see how it goes.
I would like to sincerely thank you again though! Whether I agree with you or not, you have been a big help. I am also still interested in hearing what anyone thinks (whether they agree with me or not). Who knows, someone might bring something to the table that will change my mind.
That could be interpreted to make them better at slipping through small spaces than smaller creatures.
Well my primary objection is to the wording. That bit about not taking attack penalties while squeezing seems strange.
That could be interpreted to make them better at slipping through small spaces than smaller creatures.
Ah, yes. I figure it's meant to be "no penalties (other than movement reduction) when squeezing to medium size". But since the stat block gives their size as "medium", they would actually be better at squeezing through small holes than humans...
I think a better way to write up the race would be to simply give them large size, but limit them to normal-sized weapon and give them a bonus to squeezing.
Personally I'd like to give them a bonus to Grabs and Bull Rush attacks as well, both as attacker and defender. +1 or +2 shouldn't be terribly unbalancing.
Massive: You have a 2 square by 2 square fighting space. You can squeeze into a 1 square fighting space. You take no penalties to attack from squeezing, and do not grant combat advantage when you squeeze. While squeezing you have a speed of 4. For the purposes of the grab and bull rush rules you are considered to be a large creature.
2. Large creatures don't gain any inherent bonuses to grab and bull rush, except that smaller creatures simply cannot grapple a creature more than one size category larger than them.
1. You still have these guys taking no penalties for squeezing, (except a speed drop), I think what you meant to say was that when squeezing this race can operate as a medium creature.
No, I don't need to say that because this race is a medium creature. Massive is a quality that acts as an exception to the rules of the usual medium sized creature. Because the race is medium sized, unless something specifically states otherwise it acts as a medium sized creature. So, stating as much is redundant. I did, however, state that it takes up a 1 square space when squeezing. This means that it can not squeeze into spaces as small as what other medium sized creatures can squeeze into. Alternatively, I could reword it to say that for the purposes of squeezing it counts as a large sized creature, but then list all the ways in which it does not suffer penalties when squeezing.
2. Large creatures don't gain any inherent bonuses to grab and bull rush, except that smaller creatures simply cannot grapple a creature more than one size category larger than them.
I know. That is why I didn't give it any inherent bonuses to grab and bull rush.
This race looks like a boring Goliath only you get to abuse the Large mechanics. Yeah I'm sorry but I'm not seeing it, and I also think that having a larger base is a bad idea for a race. It really, really, really pushes them into the role of a Melee warrior.
Yea. I have heard that claim. But I have not seen anyone present a convincing argument as to why that is true. Which is why I have chosen to ignore that claim and playtest this race as is (in the face of the positive comments it recieved in the Dark Sun forums).
Ok fine, they should still take penalties when squeezing, JUST LIKE A MEDIUM CREATURE.
I see no reason why.
First of all, if they took full penalties for squeezing then this would become too much of a disadvantage and not enough of an advantage (and, overall, it is still supposed to be an advantage. That is why they loose powerful athlete to get this). Any time the party has to travel down a hallway that is only one square thick this race would get the shaft bigtime.
Second of all, them taking less penalties to squeeze shows that they are not as big as a large sized creature, and have an easier time fitting into the same tight spaces that a large sized creature could. Meanwhile, they can only squeeze into the space that a medium sized creature normally fits into, while other medium sized creatures can fit into spaces tighter than a 1 square fighting space. This means they do not come across as being able to squeeze into as tight spaces as medium sized creatures; they are not better at squeezing than medium sized creatures. They simply exist in an interstitial size category where they take up the same fighting space as a large sized creature, can only squeeze into a 1 square fighting space, but take less penalties for squeezing into that space than a large sized creature would because they are not quite as big and bulky.
I am not following you...
Because the way you have it written now they're better at squeezing than tiny creatures.
I am not sure how. There is nothing about what I have written now that allows you to fit into the same fighting space as a tiny creature, or even a medium creature. However, perhaps this would be less confusing...
Massive: You have a 2 square by 2 square fighting space. For the purpose of squeezing you are considered to be a large sized creature. However, you take no penalties to attack from squeezing, and do not grant combat advantage when you squeeze. Additionally, while squeezing you have a speed of 4. For the purposes of the grab and bull rush rules you are also considered to be a large creature.
The problem is that since you take none of the penalties associated with squeezing he actually works better in tight spaces than most characters. He may not be able to get down into the tiny holes but up until that point the big lumbering guy is more agile in the tight passages than his normal sized friends.
Except that that is empirically not true. He is more agile in a 1 square fighting space than a large sized character is. But he is still less agile in a 1 square fighting space than any other medium sized character is (because he takes a speed penalty for fighting in a 1 square fighting space). And he cannot squeeze down into smaller spaces at all, which other medium sized characters can...
I am not sure what you are not getting, but that does not equal to being more agile in tight spaces than medium or smaller characters. It only equals being more agile in tight spaces than large or larger characters.
So not only does the H-G get the benefits of a 2x2 size but if he feels like it, he can be a normal Medium creature at only the cost of 2pts of movement. No CA for squeezing, no attack penalties, just a -2 to speed. Where as anyone else who squeezes suddenly gets hit with much more severe penalties for doing so. It does translate to "Massive Character is better at Squeezing than Anyone else" because it avoids almost all of the drawbacks.
Normally, a Medium character that squeezes into a Small space takes all those penalties for doing so. But with the Massive mechanic, you're allowing a more or less Large race to squeeze (as in the action) without any penalties besides a loss of two points of speed.
So not only does the H-G get the benefits of a 2x2 size but if he feels like it, he can be a normal Medium creature at only the cost of 2pts of movement. No CA for squeezing, no attack penalties, just a -2 to speed. Where as anyone else who squeezes suddenly gets hit with much more severe penalties for doing so. It does translate to "Massive Character is better at Squeezing than Anyone else" because it avoids almost all of the drawbacks.
In fairness, he thinks that his additions to the mechanic have prevented the otherwise medium creature from squeezing into a small space. So, you know, that explains the incredulity.
This is pointless, though, because he is listening to a setting/flavor based community (the Dark Sun forum) rather than a mechanic-based community (the Homebrew forum) in regards to a mechanical issue. I wonder if he asks carpenters about his taxes or graphic designers about his car trouble.
a larger base is inherently inappropriate to permanently grant to a race.
Is this statement applicable to only 4e, or does it also hold true for other rule sets as well?
I'd welcome comments on this idea for others as well.
a larger base is inherently inappropriate to permanently grant to a race.
Is this statement applicable to only 4e, or does it also hold true for other rule sets as well?
Only 4E.
3.5, other editions of D&D, and many other rules systems have design philosophies that are openly supportive of pigeon-holing and also openly supportive of balancing bonuses with penalties. In such contexts, there's no problem with a race having a larger base. This is only a problem in 4E exactly because of the design philosophies in place.
Normally, a Medium character that squeezes into a Small space takes all those penalties for doing so. But with the Massive mechanic, you're allowing a more or less Large race to squeeze (as in the action) without any penalties besides a loss of two points of speed.
So not only does the H-G get the benefits of a 2x2 size but if he feels like it, he can be a normal Medium creature at only the cost of 2pts of movement. No CA for squeezing, no attack penalties, just a -2 to speed. Where as anyone else who squeezes suddenly gets hit with much more severe penalties for doing so. It does translate to "Massive Character is better at Squeezing than Anyone else" because it avoids almost all of the drawbacks.
Not quite. It translates to a massive character is better at squeezing into a 1 square fighting size than a large character, because it avoids almost all of the drawbacks. It does not translate into the massive character is better at squeezing than all other characters, because smaller sized characters can still squeeze into smaller sized areas than what the massive character is allowed to squeeze into. A normal medium sized character can squeeze into a small space (a burrow, say, as per the RAW). A massive character can not...
In fairness, he thinks that his additions to the mechanic have prevented the otherwise medium creature from squeezing into a small space. So, you know, that explains the incredulity.
This is pointless, though, because he is listening to a setting/flavor based community (the Dark Sun forum) rather than a mechanic-based community (the Homebrew forum) in regards to a mechanical issue. I wonder if he asks carpenters about his taxes or graphic designers about his car trouble.
My additions to the mechanic have stoped the massive creature from squeezing into the same spaces a small character, or even medium character, can squeeze into. For the purposes of squeezing, a massive character is considered to be large. Just like a large character cannot squeeze into anything smaller than a 1 square fighting space, neither can a massive character. It can only squeeze into a 1 square fighting space (or a 5 foot by 5 foot area).
And I am sorry you failed to create a convincing and logical argument. When you do, maybe I will listen to you...
This harsh tone, by the way, doesn't translate to the other people in this thread. Whether I agree or disagree with them, I have found their input helpfull. It is too bad I can't say the same for yours. Since "this is pointless," feel free not to comment on this thread again mlpindustries.
I'm starting to see how a 2x2 base can be problematic.
Can you please explain it to me, because I am still not seeing it. There are a lot of HUGE disadvantages that come with a 2x2 fighting base. Being able to target any one square that the creature inhabits for the purposes of discovering cover and concealment, line of sight, effect, or range. Having 12 people target it in melee instead of 8. Having 6 pairs of flankers target it instead of 4. Having odd numbers of foes be able to flank it all together. I just can not see how this does not equal the benefit of having a larger number of close burst and melee squares potentially targeted. If you remove that bonus as well, a 2x2 square fighting base becomes nothing but a bad thing...
There are a lot of HUGE disadvantages that come with a 2x2 fighting base.
We know. That's a part of the problem. Along with the design philosophy of not trying to balance bonuses with penalties came the design philosophy of not imposing racial penalties at all. The only times this has been violated in 4E is in the case of the Small size weapon restrictions and limitations, and that's why a lot of people around here have even taken to house-ruling those away.
What you appear to be most focused on here is balance, and that sort of perspective works fine in a lot of system, but 4E isn't one of those. There are other design considerations to take into account, and just because something is balanced doesn't mean that it's appropriately designed for PC use in 4E.
If you don't agree, and it's clear that you don't, then fine. You're entitled to your own preferred design philosophies, but when you're trying to design something for 4E, the default assumption is that you're working within its design perameters and considerations. If you're not, then you're going to get called out on it whether your home brew ends up theoretically mechanically balanced or not. If you don't like these design expectations, then I don't know what else to tell you other than that 4E might not be what you're looking for. It bears repeating that there's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's something that you might just have to accept.
I'm starting to see how a 2x2 base can be problematic.
Can you please explain it to me, because I am still not seeing it.
I'm not sure how well I can express it, as I'm just starting to see it myself, but I'll try.
Having a 2x2 base does have advantages and disadvantages (as you've already mentioned). The advantages are good for both defenders and classes that make use of close burst attacks. The disadvantages are bad for classes that need to move a lot or that are not built for defense. (If I analyzed that incorrectly, please let me know).
This is a problem because the racial feature is an asset to some classes/builds while being a liability to other classes/builds. Every offical racial feature I have seen (even the bad ones) is only an asset. Some classes and builds get more mileage out of that asset, but they can all benefit from it. The Dragonborn's fire breath is a good example. Those able to mark enemies they hit get more mileage out of it than others, but everyone who has it still has the benefit of the dragonbreath itself. This is not the case with a 2x2 base.
Another issue is one that others have mentioned. Your stat-block is 100% defnder. It gives bonuses to strength and constitution and athletics and endurance. Alone, this is not so much of a problem (though still a bit of pigeonhole), but coupled with the 2x2 base feature whose disadvantages are mostly beneficial (though occasionally a minor annoyance) to defenders; you might as well slap a defenders only label on the race.
Since you are designing them to fit a specific fluff, I can forgive the stat block stuff as being setting-specific. I do think you need to add another ability score to the block though. Ever since PHB 3, as I understand it, races will start getting one set bonus and one choice from two scores bonus. If I have been unable to spark a glimmer of insight as to why a 2x2 base can be problematic; perhaps converting either the Str or Con bonus to a choice of X or Y (and then looking at the base from the perspective of a non-defender with those primary and secondary attributes) will help.
And just for 2x2 base, it is useful only to Defender classes. A ranger or wizard would find the larger base only a detriment (more room for baddies to stomp the squishy character and harder to maneuver). And really, if the point of the race is to be Large sized, you defeat the purpose by giving them the ability to be Medium at a slightly slower speed at will.
Really, I can't think of what else we can say that's gonna show you the flaw to the Massive mechanic. As far as I can tell, you're just really ignoring us by using the same arguement over and over again.
Making a character use a large (2x2) base means it runs into severe problems in any role that requires movement, which pretty much means anything but defender and some melee leader builds. That could be compensated for by adding some feature that favored those roles (personally I think a large centaur would be workable as long as it gets some bonus to squeezing - high movement would favor just the roles that large size doesn't).
However if the objective isn't to make a well-rounded PC race, but rather a campaign-specific race that is supposed to heavily favor specific roles, then the only important point is actually to make sure that the race in question doesn't get to good at those roles!
Personally I think the current statblock along with (optional!) large size makes this H-G a little to good as a defender, but so far that's just a subjective opinion.
Yes but C-D, by the Massive Mechanic, you're allowing the entire hypothetical Half-Giant race to more or less ignore the entire section on squeezing in the PHB. They completely ignore all the normal rules for squeezing and get none of the drawbacks unless you count the hit to speed as a drawback.
Yes, they can ignore all the normal rules for squeezing. Considering the fact that they loose powerful athlete for this, I do not see why that is a problem.
And just for 2x2 base, it is useful only to Defender classes. A ranger or wizard would find the larger base only a detriment (more room for baddies to stomp the squishy character and harder to maneuver). And really, if the point of the race is to be Large sized, you defeat the purpose by giving them the ability to be Medium at a slightly slower speed at will.
But it is not true that it is only good for a defender class. It is good for any class that is willing to play as a shield for his allies. Certainly, a half-giant of any class will play more like a defender than a lot of other choices. But that is true fo the dwarf as well. So why is this a problem?
Really, I can't think of what else we can say that's gonna show you the flaw to the Massive mechanic. As far as I can tell, you're just really ignoring us by using the same arguement over and over again.
That is because you seem to be approaching this from the point of view of a design philosophy that I neither approve of, nor enjoy. This is why I like the mechanics for small characters, and people like crimson don't. This is why I am fine with the mechanics for minotaurs, and crimson is not. Put plain and simply, I don't think 4e needs to follow that design philosophy in all cases. As an exception based system, exceptions to that philosophy already exist. I don't see the problem with adding one more in...
Whatever. That is fine. Obviously what I want out of this is not part of the "player accepted design philosophy." As long as my group doesn't have a problem with it (in which case I will go with the standard Goliath stats), I think I want to playtest it anyway and see how it turns out.
It'd be like me going and rewriting humans and giving them the racial ability to wipe out entire species in exchange for their third at-will power. I mean really, how often are you using that 3rd at-will and besides, the ability to wipe out entire species is a defining feature of humans. Sure it might not fit the "player accepted design philosophy" but I doubt the players in my group would mind.
Certainly, a half-giant of any class will play more like a defender than a lot of other choices. But that is true fo the dwarf as well. So why is this a problem?
I know that it won't change your mind, but I'm going to go ahead and say this anyways.
The Dwarf may not be perfectly designed, but it doesn't have nearly as many design issues as your Half-Giant has. The Dwarf has no racial features that are detrimental. All of the Dwarf's racial features are bonuses, and most of them are pretty useful to all classes and roles, so while it may not be optimal, a Dwarf Rogue still appreciates the racial bonus to saving throws versus poison, a Dwarf Sorcerer still benefits from not being pushed, pulled, or slid as easily as normal, and a Dwarf Psion still loves being able to use Second Wind as a minor actions instead of as a standard action. Encumbered Speed keeps the Dwarf from perfect design status because it's almost useless to classes that don't wear heavy armor, but at least it isn't any detriment to these classes either, so all things considered, the Dwarf's design is still more than acceptable.
As an exception based system, exceptions to that philosophy already exist. I don't see the problem with adding one more in...
You say that they're exceptions, but I say that they're mistakes. You don't decide to home brew something, balance it against something that it not balance or design it by comparing to something that it poorly designed, and then get away with claiming that the home brew is thus balanced or well designed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
That is because you seem to be approaching this from the point of view of a design philosophy that I neither approve of, nor enjoy. This is why I like the mechanics for small characters, and people like crimson don't. This is why I am fine with the mechanics for minotaurs, and crimson is not. Put plain and simply, I don't think 4e needs to follow that design philosophy in all cases.
Whatever. That is fine. Obviously what I want out of this is not part of the "player accepted design philosophy." As long as my group doesn't have a problem with it (in which case I will go with the standard Goliath stats), I think I want to playtest it anyway and see how it turns out.
That's absolutely fine, but that being the case, you shouldn't be expecting us to give you positive feedback.
In a general sense, I don't like it.
Unlike with most othe races, bad combinations won't be "Well, I'm not getting the full benefits of this race," they'll be "Well, I'm gaining a penalty by taking this race."
That doesn't sit well with me. Honestly, it makes me more uncomfortable than Small does.
So... its okay for them to be 2x2 because they make better meat-shields. And really, losing a reroll to jump or climb checks is not the same as the Massive mechanic. Massive has much more impact on the game then an occasional rerolled skill check.
I disagree with your subjective assessment (but that might be because I run games, and like to play games, that are roughly 50/50 when it comes to combat/non combat encounters. And jump and climb tend to be very useful in combat encounters as well as non-combat encounters).
It'd be like me going and rewriting humans and giving them the racial ability to wipe out entire species in exchange for their third at-will power. I mean really, how often are you using that 3rd at-will and besides, the ability to wipe out entire species is a defining feature of humans. Sure it might not fit the "player accepted design philosophy" but I doubt the players in my group would mind.
Hyperbole doesn't make your argument stronger or more convincing.
I know that it won't change your mind, but I'm going to go ahead and say this anyways.
Oh, I don't know. I just posed the question to my group (as to what they would rather use), and gave them a link to this thread. It is very possible that your arguments will result in us not using this version fo the race, and isntead using the Goliath RAW.
The Dwarf may not be perfectly designed, but it doesn't have nearly as many design issues as your Half-Giant has. The Dwarf has no racial features that are detrimental. All of the Dwarf's racial features are bonuses, and most of them are pretty useful to all classes and roles, so while it may not be optimal, a Dwarf Rogue still appreciates the racial bonus to saving throws versus poison, a Dwarf Sorcerer still benefits from not being pushed, pulled, or slid as easily as normal, and a Dwarf Psion still loves being able to use Second Wind as a minor actions instead of as a standard action. Encumbered Speed keeps the Dwarf from perfect design status because it's almost useless to classes that don't wear heavy armor, but at least it isn't any detriment to these classes either, so all things considered, the Dwarf's design is still more than acceptable.
I guess I just don't agree that a 2x2 base isn't useful to roles other than defender, so long as a player is willing to dable in a style of play in which he still uses himself as a shield for his allies. And as that is what I feel half giants should be doing, because that is what their race was magically designed to do, I am ok with that.
You say that they're exceptions, but I say that they're mistakes. You don't decide to home brew something, balance it against something that it not balance or design it by comparing to something that it poorly designed, and then get away with claiming that the home brew is thus balanced or well designed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Ok, but I don't agree with you. I like the way the dwarf was designed. The thing you don't like I still do. While I appreciate 4e better balanced system, I feel like what you seem to want doesn't equate to balance but to homogenization. I doubt I would like 4e if it perfectly met your expectations...
That's absolutely fine, but that being the case, you shouldn't be expecting us to give you positive feedback.
It took some time and discussion for me to realize that I have a very different design philosophy than you, and want slightly different things from my 4e game experience. And I don't mind the negative feedback. As I said, minus mlpindustries rudeness, and Bran's one foray into hyperbole, I still find this feedback very useful. It might not be what I want to hear, but as I noted, it may still result in our group not using the above stat block (and instead using the Goliath as per the RAW). At the very least I am considering that perhaps I should use the Goliath as per the RAW, and I have posted the question as a vote to my group.
I doubt I would like 4e if it perfectly met your expectations...
To be fair, I think that you should actually see a list of the races that I consider to be perfectly designed before drawing such a conclusion:
Deva
Githzerai
Goliath
Human
Mul
Shard-Mind
Warforged
There are plenty of races that are nearly perfect, though, and whose flaws are probably just personal, minor nitpicks...
It seems to me that Cyber-Dave wants the Dark Sun Goliaths to be more Giant like than they are, more in line with the fluff of DS. Right now the Goliath race RAW doesn't "feel" any bigger than a really strong Human because it has no obvious size related racial advantage. The STR & CON bonuses are good, plus the Jump/Climb re-roll and Stone's Endurance are good, but they don't scream BIG MoFo.
On this I agree with Dave.
On the other hand I agree with the posted arguments that the Massive Mechanic is not really a good idea. I don't see a need to argue the point as others already have and I don't have anything to add.
I also noted in Cyber-Dave's racial traits that he changed a Skill Bonus from +2 Nature to +2 Endurance; I disagree with this as being larger does not necessarily give you greater endurance. So I would not support this change.
Here is what I suggest:
Start with the normal Goliath racal traits and add,
Weapon Reach: Because of your great size you gain the Reach property with all weapons except those grouped as Light Blades and Unarmed. Weapons that already have the Reach property are unaffected.
and remove,
Mercurial Personality: +1 racial bonus to Will
and
Skill Bonus: +2 to Nature
So it looks like this:
Half-Giant (Goliath)
Racial Traits
Average Height: 8’8”-9’9”
Average Weight: 580-740 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonus: +2 Athletics
Powerful Athlete: When you make an Athletics check
to jump or climb, roll twice and use either result.
Stone’s Endurance: You have the stone’s endurance power.
Weapon Reach: Because of your great size you gain the Reach property
with all weapons except those grouped as Light Blades and Unarmed.
Weapons that already have the Reach property are unaffected.
So what we get here is a race of obvious great size, but still balanced (at least as far as I can tell).
What do people think?
Also, I didn't change the +2 bonus to nature because of their large size. I changed it because it doesn't fit with the original stats and fluff of the half-giant. Meanwhile, a +2 bonus to Endurance seems to (I think).
Weapon Reach: Because of your great size you gain the Reach property with all weapons except those grouped as Light Blades and Unarmed. Weapons that already have the Reach property are unaffected.
What do people think?
Unfortunately, it's totally useless for ranged-weapon-using classes and implement-using classes. It's basically in the same class as the Oversized racial feature.
However, as I have said before, I am totally in support of coming up with a new feature that would further reflect the massive size of the race. I even recommended such a feature in the first thread. However, that's now what Cyber-Dave actually wants. He says that he wants a feature that would make the race feel bigger, but what he actually wants and now has his heart set on is a feature that actually increases the space that the race takes up.
But, Cyber-David, I'll ask you one more time just to make sure that we're clear:
If we can come up with a viable feature that doesn't actually increase the size of the race but does accomplish the goal of making the race feel bigger, would you accept that as an alternative?
If I agreed that it made the race feel bigger? Yea.
Ah, well now we're getting somewhere! ^_^
All right then, let me see if I can some up with some ideas that you might like...
But I did not think that your last suggest did that in the slightest, nor did I feel that it stood up to the goliath's stone's endurance racial power (which is what you were suggesting your power replace).
That was not the impression that I had gotten from your response to it. The impression that I got was that you didn't like it because it didn't make the character take up more space. If I misunderstood, then I apologize. I don't think that I could be totally to blame for this misunderstanding, though. After all, your response was pretty much just "I don't like it" followed by:
My goal is to find a way to give them a large base for a short period of time. That is what I am looking for help with. I want to find a way to give them a large base for a short period of time.
That was not the impression that I had gotten from your response to it. The impression that I got was that you didn't like it because it didn't make the character take up more space. If I misunderstood, then I apologize. I don't think that I could be totally to blame for this misunderstanding, though...
You are right. I could have been more clear as to the reason why I did not like it. I did not like it, specifically, because I did not think it was well balanced with the existing Goliath power, and because I felt that it mechanically modeled accuracy better than it did size. Sorry I was not more clear about that before.
I think it is probably more broken then what I had originally (if what I had originally was broken).
It's definitely more powerful than other racial abilities, and I think it's still beyond the scope of a 4e race, but it's a lot less overpowered than a 2x2 fighting space. Reach is anemic in 4e compared to earlier editions. I think the reach he suggested (the kind that doesn't further increase the reach of Reach weapons) is probably only really amazing for the Warden (who can punish marks from his reach) and spear/shield fighters. It's threatening reach that's scary.
Here's the thing, the "getting surrounded" issue really seems weird to me. How are enemies getting around this guy? 2x2 is pretty big. Are your combats all in open fields? Large, unobstructed audience chambers?
I think it would be pretty easy to find terrain to protect your "extra flanking squares," especially since you basically have an extra square of reach away from walls and whatnot. And, there are at least three easy to get feats that prevent flanking, that every melee character is probably interested in getting, so this is just not the kind of issue that you're making it into.
As for the burst issue, it's not just +4 spaces. It gets exponentially worse. Burst 1's go from 8 to 12. Burst 2's go from 24 to 32. Burst 3s go from 48 to 60. Burst 5s (most Leader heals, initially) go from 120 to 140 squares. This is a rather big boost.
Ok, let's look at what classes might like this race and why:
Defenders:
Every defender wants to take up more space. Taking up space provides more cover for your allies, it keeps enemies from getting by you, and it gives you more space for bursts and zones and whatnot.
Fighters with close burst attacks are all over this. Imagine Come and Get It, for example. That's 60 squares of enemies coming towards you, and hell, up to 12 of them can fit adjacent, so that's just about the whole battlefield. If you follow that up with an action point and Vorpal Tornado or Scattering swing, that's a lot of screwed enemies. Hell, even just Rain of Steel becomes worse with four extra squares of enemies affected.
Wardens are in heaven. All of their best powers and attacks emanate zones out from them. Form of Winter's Herald now makes 32 squares of difficult terrain. Boiling Cloud gives your allies 12 squares of hiding spaces and your enemies 12 squares of pain.
You might think that Swordmages don't care for being so big, and they will miss the Int bonus, but who really cares? Just buy the 18. You'll still have decent Con and you'll have the Strength for the improved Aegis feat. And of course, there's the fact that Swordburst becomes crazy amazing. At base, it's a friendly 12 square attack. With some basic shenanigans (Arcane Admixture Thunder and the boosted Thunder burst size feat...resounding thunder?), that's 32 squares of pain. With Arcane Reach, you can put the Burst somewhere else, and with the thunder thing, it ends up an 6x6 friendly attack you can center anywhere within 2 squares of any of your four spaces.
Strikers:
The assassin sucks, so nobody wants to be them. Avengers may be uninterested since they don't want to be adjacent to other people. Otherwise, every striker wants to be your Half-Giant.
Monks are especially big offenders. They have tons of Close Burst attacks. Flurry eventually hits everyone adjacent, so they like being surrounded. Dragon's Tail becomes a monstrous 12 square attack, and the movement action actually lets you end a square away from the prone guy or ally you switched with (by just swapping your far space for theirs). You also end up with far more options for battlefield coverage after a move like that.
Sorcerer's (Dragon/Cosmic ones, of course) and Warlocks totally want to be a Half Giant. They get either a primary (conlock) or a secondary (str sorc), and then they get to boost the size of all their close bursts.
The same goes for Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians, everyone really. While being flanked is easier if you're dumb about your positioning on the battlefield, it's also significantly easier to flank. Any of your squares can be opposite your ally's, not to mention that you can provide flanking for two different allies at once. And hey, if you don't feel like taking up more space for some reason, just Squeeze. The only penalty is speed, and really, speed means very little for Strikers, since so many of their powers are dedicated to free movement anyway.
Leaders? Extra space for healing, is a big one. Lots of extra space, actually. You know what, this is taking longer than I expected. Let me condense it: Assassins, Avengers, Ranged Rangers, Controllers, and maybe the Shaman are pretty much the only classes that would not want to be a Half-Giant. Virtually everyone else will love it. It's just way too good.
The penalties are just not there, especially when Squeezing is so easy and profitable. I mean, you talked about all the corridors that are 5' across. Well, your Half-Giant can squeeze and block that off. How about corridors that are 10' across? Normally, that chokepoint needs two guys to block it. Not for the Half-Giant. How about a 20' hallway? Standing in the middle makes getting by him OA time. For most defenders, that is basically a death sentence.
So, even though I believe it's far beyond the power level of a racial feature, it is made 10 times worse for your "the penalties balance it out" argument, when all the penalties can be negated by moving 2 squares slower. Actually, not even moving 2 squares slower, since you can still Shift just fine or use powers that generat movement.
I think it is probably more broken then what I had originally (if what I had originally was broken).
It's definitely more powerful than other racial abilities, and I think it's still beyond the scope of a 4e race, but it's a lot less overpowered than a 2x2 fighting space. Reach is anemic in 4e compared to earlier editions. I think the reach he suggested (the kind that doesn't further increase the reach of Reach weapons) is probably only really amazing for the Warden (who can punish marks from his reach) and spear/shield fighters. It's threatening reach that's scary.
Sorry, but I consider the ability to attack 4 extra squares (along with the penalties associated with size) to be a lot less potent than the ability to attack 16 extra squares (with no penalties).
Here's the thing, the "getting surrounded" issue really seems weird to me. How are enemies getting around this guy? 2x2 is pretty big. Are your combats all in open fields? Large, unobstructed audience chambers?
No. But I have yet to see a single map in which a large size character could not be attacked by more people than a medium sized character at any given time. Not to mention, any terrain which blocks people from attacking you is also terrain that reduces the number of active squares that you threaten.
I think it would be pretty easy to find terrain to protect your "extra flanking squares," especially since you basically have an extra square of reach away from walls and whatnot. And, there are at least three easy to get feats that prevent flanking, that every melee character is probably interested in getting, so this is just not the kind of issue that you're making it into.
It is a good deal harder than it is for a medium or small sized character, and I watch our party get flanked frequently enough. A half-giant would find himself flanked more frequently still.
As for the burst issue, it's not just +4 spaces. It gets exponentially worse. Burst 1's go from 8 to 12. Burst 2's go from 24 to 32. Burst 3s go from 48 to 60. Burst 5s (most Leader heals, initially) go from 120 to 140 squares. This is a rather big boost.
No, it does not get exponentially worse. The pattern you just noted is not an exponential pattern of growth. An exponential pattern of growth that started with 4 would look like this: 4,16, 64, 256, 1024, etc. An exponential pattern of growth that started with 2 would look like this: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, etc. Hyperbole does not help your argument.
Ok, let's look at what classes might like this race and why:
In the section following this statement make some convincing arguments. But in the face of your claims that the disadvantages can up and be whisked away (they can't), and your hyperbolic claims (exponential indeed!), I worry that they are suspect.
Anyways, I am currently waiting to see what my group wants. I am probably going to end up scrapping this version as well. Which is too bad. Most of 4e seems like a much better game than earlier editions. But every so often I stumble upon an area like this, where 4e really seems to have lost some of the soul and spirit of using mechanics to narrate a story. It would be really nice to have the mechanics of the half giant actually make them feel like they are, well, half of a giant.
Also, I didn't change the +2 bonus to nature because of their large size. I changed it because it doesn't fit with the original stats and fluff of the half-giant. Meanwhile, a +2 bonus to Endurance seems to (I think).
...then added an incredibly potent race feature on top of that (much stronger than the +2 bonus to a skill which has been lost)...
Okay.
Unfortunately, it's totally useless for ranged-weapon-using classes and implement-using classes. It's basically in the same class as the Oversized racial feature.
Fair enough what if the racial power(s) were more tempoary such as an Encounter power you choose at character creation, something like this:
A choice of Encounter Powers that benefits different class types such as:
An Encounter Power that adds Reach to any normal or At Will melee attack.
Your enemies cannot escape your great size as you reach out to attack them where they think they are safe
An Encounter Power that adds Range to any normal or At Will Ranged attack.
Using your great size you pull your massive bow to it's limits adding range to you're attack
An Encounter Power that allows a caster to cast any normal or At Will without provoking an opportunity attack.
You're hulking mass shields you while you cast your eldritch magic
An Encounter Power that allows you an immediate Save on Push, Pull, Slide or Knockdown.
Like a great mountain range, nothing moves you against your will
These would cover a bonus for all the basic character types and can be explained in terms of physical size. Their not overly powerful because they are only Encounter and only effect normal or At Will attacks (they could easily not effect AWs if it seems too powerful) but are still useful.
It also means that while a Half Giant Wizard is now viable, he's also just going to be Goliath without the Powerful Athlete.