Harpy, as a monster race - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 spreetcg Mar 04, 2011 19:47:13	Harpy Average height:5'0-5'6 average weight:120- 145 +2cha and +2 dex or con +2 bluff, +2 acrobatics size: medium speed: 6 languages: common vison: normal Busrt of flight: You gain the burst of flight racial power .screached ears: you gain rest. 5 thunder, This increases to 10 at 11th and 15 at 21st level fey orgin(you are consitered to be fey for purposes for effects) Scatting screech: you gain the scatting screech power standard; encounter close burst 2: (all creatures)cha +3/6/9 vs. fort special: deafened are immune Hit: cha thunder damage and target is slided 2 squares and suffers and -2 pentalty to attack rolls until end of next turn level 11: 1d4+ cha thunder damage and target is also deafened(save ends) level 21 2d4 + cha thunder damage Bust of flight; move, encounter you suddently flap you broad wings in a short matter of time, substaining it for a minute. You fly your speed +2 and you gain a clumsy fly speed at the end of the movement equal to your speed +2 until end of next turn or if you land before end of next turn. At the end of next turn if you are still in te air, you fall. any thoughts? Im planning to use this as a charcter race and for creating NPCs for dark sun.
#2 rampant Mar 04, 2011 20:21:11	You're pretty light on features, the dazing part of that power is too much lower the damage and find a less potent condition, fly is just asking to host the next round of an old tired debate.
#3 spreetcg Mar 04, 2011 21:17:43	Taking fly away is just taking the flavor of harpy away into the trash, How is that too much damage? its spreaded against targets. I might change the condition but the damage is fine by me.
#4 rampant Mar 04, 2011 21:55:54	1. Considering how much pepper they need, no one gives a damn about a harpy's flavor. 2. I didn't say get rid of flying i just warned you that it inspires 12 page debates, me I'm gonna just tack it up as a major feature as long as it stays clumsy till at least paragon. 3. A d-born gets a close blast 3 (9 squares) with he same damage, yours gives a close burst 2 (16 squares). Also you inflict a status condition, and deal untyped damage. So yeah that power needs to be toned down somewhere. 4. Think up some other features.
#5 natural20username Mar 04, 2011 22:21:00	I'll kick off the predicted round of objections to flying. This doesn't really matter for NPCs, but for PCs, flying creates too much potential for hanging around 20 feet of the ground sniping people. I'm sure that Crimson_Concerto will eventually get around to commenting that dazed is a powerful status condition (which it is). I'd agree with the previous poster that the burst attack IS pretty powerful when comparded to the dragonborn. It deals untyped damage, inflicts a very dangerous status condition, and is a larger area. On a less negative note, I'd vote for letting Harpies use their primary ability score (like for themes) for their attack power, even if it's nonstandard. I personally think it does a lot to avoid pigeonholing.
#6 rampant Mar 04, 2011 22:33:49	There's also the fact that it just saves so much hassle trying to pick out which ability scores should or shouldn't be allowed.
#7 spreetcg Mar 04, 2011 22:59:11	Thnaks for the suggestions. Note on the flying: it's going to stay clumsy through all tiers of play.
#8 rampant Mar 04, 2011 23:05:54	Altitude Limit needs to be cleaned up a bit. Right now you only fall if you forget to say "I end my move".
#9 incenjucar Mar 04, 2011 23:11:36	I would seriously suggest removing flight from the race itself and just giving them access to a racial paragon path that provided it, possibly with utility power options of varying strengths that they can swap their usual utilities for until they reach that path, ala Shades.
#10 salla Mar 04, 2011 23:13:39	I would seriously suggest removing flight from the race itself and just giving them access to a racial paragon path that provided it, possibly with utility power options of varying strengths that they can swap their usual utilities for until they reach that path, ala Shades. It would work fine, I think, as an encounter power a la the Genasi wind-manifestation.
#11 spreetcg Mar 04, 2011 23:21:29	Fixed things up, Put an penaltyfor flying above 30ft from the ground and ending movment. Also, I wouldn't remove flight(clumsy), this is intended as a monster race not a full fleged Pc race. I'm describing not wild-harpys. Just like urban ones.
#12 rampant Mar 04, 2011 23:29:31	Instead of an altitude limit, what if you restricted how long they could stay in the air without landing?
#13 Sabelkatten Mar 05, 2011 4:04:55	Flying isn't inherently unbalanced, but it means the GM has to design all encounters to match the character which adds a lot of extra work. It also tends to make for real unintresting encounters! Clumsy doesn't really help since the problem is having a character that can be completely immune to all enemies unless they to can fly or have better range. For a race that is supposed to fly all the time I'd limit them to having to land at the end of each turn, that gives a lot of mobility but means the enemy can still engage them as normal. Feats can then add some ability to stay in the air for longer periods. For a racial attack I'd give them a defensive controller-style effect instead of damage. Close burst, slide hit targets and give them some temporary penalty (minus to attacks?).
#14 Fireclave Mar 05, 2011 4:23:54	As others have pointed out, the at-will flight (even with the altitude limit) is the biggest issue since its generally too powerful in the hands of PCs, especially before mid-paragon. If you're just intending to use this racial write up for NPCs and monsters (which I would assume from your thread titles), then its a non issue. If you're prepared to handle the consequences of flight in your own games then that's fine, though the race definately won't be balanced compared to standard races. Also the encounter power needs some tweaks. The attack bonus should scale per tier, idealy using the newer +3/+6/+9 standard. And you need to allow more option for determining the attack bonus besides charisma. Either allow three options like the dragonborn's Dragonbreath power, or follow the example set by themes and simply allow the highest stat to apply.
#15 alitain Mar 05, 2011 13:21:52	blah, flying is fine. It's not honestly that much work for a DM. Ranged monsters can focus on the flier. Otherwise, alititude limit should be fine. If they can only fly a couple squares above the group it'll keep them from say flying over a dark chasm and whatnot, or just flying up an incredible tall wall or mountain cliff. You can have feets to increase or enhance it. In our game right now all our character can fly, through various means because several of our battles function in the air(dragons, gotta love'em), and it's fine. Sometimes we're also in areas that keep our flying dampened and all, depending on the DM. No biggie, works out fine and it's never been hard for him to work out. Even when we fight enemies that don't fly it still works fine and isn't abusive.
#16 natural20username Mar 05, 2011 18:28:17	@Alitain Disagree. Problems: All encounters must include archers. Therefore that rules out any solo with no ranged capabilities, rules out many monster races that wouldn't make sense for them to have ranged attacks. Altitude limits help, and if the altitude limit was say 5 feet off the ground, the fact that melee monsters would still have a place in the adventure would make it totally fine. It doesn't make it harder for the DM to run encounters, it just cuts off lots of adventure plots.
#17 alitain Mar 05, 2011 18:37:31	@Alitain Disagree. Problems: All encounters must include archers. Therefore that rules out any solo with no ranged capabilities, rules out many monster races that wouldn't make sense for them to have ranged attacks. Altitude limits help, and if the altitude limit was say 5 feet off the ground, the fact that melee monsters would still have a place in the adventure would make it totally fine. It doesn't make it harder for the DM to run encounters, it just cuts off lots of adventure plots. I've never run, or been in, a solo fight that didn't have other enemies. So don't know about that, but honestly it isn't hard to add a ranged attack to the monster, flavored to fit. Whether it's just a crossbow, magic bolt, etc. And an altitude limit of 5 ft is a waste aside from floating over trap squares and dirty floors, I'd say at least 15ft you get some height so it feels like you can actually fly, without being able to soar into the heavens. And if the DM doesn't want to include ranged monsters in combat, then the melee monsters can jump for the harpy and yank it down. Then if it tries to fly while adjacent, OA is provoked and makes things less easy for the harpy to fly away again if the enemy keeps on it. Look I'm not saying it's easy having a flying PC, but it also isn't that big a deal either.
#18 spreetcg Mar 05, 2011 19:12:35	I agree with alitain, an altitude limit of 15 ft would work. I would make this only apply to Pc's and certain NPC harpies.
#19 natural20username Mar 06, 2011 8:27:51	I'm not sure I made my point clear, flying is OK, but should be considered in the category of creating a chaotic evil PC. This means that your DM should be completely cool with it before you consider rolling up a harpy PC.
#20 Crimson_Concerto Mar 07, 2011 0:43:09	speed: 6, fly 8(clumsy) altitude limit(15 ft.):You can fly up to three squares above the ground that is below you. If you fly to a altitude above 15 ft. you suddenly crash(NPC's may or not have this). Absolutely broken. Frankly, I have no idea why there's even any sort of debate about this. At-will flight could have an altitude limit of zero and still be absolutely broken on a PC race if for no other reason than because it allows a character to completely ignore difficult terrain. The closest existing feature to that would be the Elf's Wild Step, and it's limited to shifts. Also, even if you could balance it with an altitude limit (which you can't), that altitude limit would be 5. Otherwise, the race would effectively be immune to the melee attacks of a lot of medium creatures, which is broken. If you want your race to have flight, then make that your race's encounter power. Flying isn't inherently unbalanced, but it means the GM has to design all encounters to match the character which adds a lot of extra work. That is the definition of unbalanced. If it were balanced, then the DM wouldn't have to go out of their way to balance it, now would they? Taking fly away is just taking the flavor of harpy away into the trash... Taking away massive size is just taking the flavor of the Tarrasque away into the trash, which is exactly why the Tarrasque should never be a PC race. Seriously, if a race concept must be mechanically broken in order to remain thematically accurate, then that race concept is not suitable to be a PC race, and that's that. If you want to make some half-harpies or pseudo-harpies or what have you that can have this flight removed, then you can get somewhere, but otherwise, this is doomed to brokenness. Scatting screech: standard; encounter close burst 2: (all creatures)cha +3/6/9 vs. fort special: deafened are immune Hit: cha thunder damage and target is slided 2 squares and suffers and -2 pentalty to attack rolls until end of next turn level 11: 1d4+ cha thunder damage and target is also deafened(save ends) level 21 2d4 + cha thunder damage A) Standard Action racial powers are bad. They interfere with character action economies in ways that are difficult to compromise with their class and party roles. Note that most existing racial attack powers are minor actions. The singular existing standard action racial power, the Minotaur's Goring Charge, is viewed as being horrifically designed in quite a number of ways, standard action use being one of them, so it will not function as an excuse to repeat that mistake. B) It is considered very bad form for an attack racial power to only allow a single ability score option to attack and/or damage. You should have at least three ability score options. C) You don't add additional effects at later levels when you're scaling a racial power up. If the effects that the power had at first level were not not such that they were suitable and useful all the way to level 30, then it was not a very good effect. D) You do not attach a (save ends) effect to an encounter power, especially not an effect like deafened. People have a massive tendency to underestimate a lot of conditions, and deafened is one of them. -10 penalty to Perception checks (save ends) is ridiculous for an encounter power.
#21 Sabelkatten Mar 07, 2011 2:06:56	Flying isn't inherently unbalanced, but it means the GM has to design all encounters to match the character which adds a lot of extra work. That is the definition of unbalanced. If it were balanced, then the DM wouldn't have to go out of their way to balance it, now would they? By that definition almost any ability is unbalanced. F.ex. you shouldn't allow ranged weapons at all, since the DM has to keep those in mind when designing encounters as well. And of course permanent flight should not be available at any level if it is unbalanced! The only workable definition of balance in a RPG I've seen is "all characters contributes just as much to the party". A flying character doesn't by default contribute more. But the GM already has a lot to keep in mind when designing encounters, and adding a big thing like a flying character adds a lot to his workload. That is bad! Btw, flight to ignore all difficult terrain doesn't have any of those problems. It's just a powerful feature in general, but downgrade the rest of the features and that's not a problem.
#22 Crimson_Concerto Mar 07, 2011 2:26:13	By that definition almost any ability is unbalanced. No, that's an incredible stretch. you shouldn't allow ranged weapons at all, since the DM has to keep those in mind when designing encounters as well. But the DM doesn't have to keep that in mind when designing encounter, at least not the vast majority of the time. The system is built with ranged weapons in mind. The system is not built with unlimited flight at level 1 in mind; in fact is was specifically and deliberately designed without that possibility in mind. And of course permanent flight should not be available at any level if it is unbalanced! It's not necessarily unbalanced at higher levels. There are plenty of things that are brokenly good at early levels while not being that big of a deal at later levels. Flight is one of them. The only workable definition of balance in a RPG I've seen is "all characters contributes just as much to the party". A flying character doesn't by default contribute more. Yes, it does. It contributes a level of mobility that is absolutely unprecedented. There are no racial features or even total combined racial packages in general that contribute so much to what a party can do. I challenge you to find me any other existing racial feature with so much utility. The closest you may get is Changeling Disguise. Btw, flight to ignore all difficult terrain doesn't have any of those problems. Ignoring difficult terrain is just the easiest way to illustrate that it's overpowered. We all also know that the Elf racial feature Wild Step is pretty nice. Flight is a racial feature with so much utility that ignoring difficult terrain is generally overlooked as minor among everything that it can do. It's just a powerful feature in general, but downgrade the rest of the features and that's not a problem. It could be the only feature that a race got and the race would still be overpowered because of it.
#23 rampant Mar 07, 2011 2:35:13	As a monster write up for making enemy harpy fighters/clerics/wizards, the flight wouldn't be a problem (the song power still needs fixing), in fact you could use the harpy's flight ability right out of the book. In fact it might be even simpler to use the dmg templates to create them from the monster stats rather than trying to go through the character class. The problem lies in when we try to give any sort of perma flight to low level characters. You'll notice that even the winged paragon paths don't hand out full unlimited combat flight. That's because given the importance of positioning in this edition the ability to simply fly over obstructing terrain and enemies is incredibly powerful. It's akin to phasing a lot of the time, you wouldn't hand out permanent phasing to a level 1 character would you?
#24 Sabelkatten Mar 07, 2011 2:44:41	By that definition almost any ability is unbalanced. No, that's an incredible stretch. you shouldn't allow ranged weapons at all, since the DM has to keep those in mind when designing encounters as well. But the DM doesn't have to keep that in mind when designing encounter, at least not the vast majority of the time. The system is built with ranged weapons in mind. The system is not built with unlimited flight at level 1 in mind; in fact is was specifically and deliberately designed without that possibility in mind. Since the only things you need to counter a flying character is flying monster and/or monsters with ranged attacks, and both of those things exist from level 1 and up, the system is actually able to handle it. And of course permanent flight should not be available at any level if it is unbalanced! It's not necessarily unbalanced at higher levels. There are plenty of things that are brokenly good at early levels while not being that big of a deal at later levels. Flight is one of them. Nope, doesn't fly. If there is even one monster that can't fight a flying character at the levels where PCs can get permanent flight by the rules it's just as much a "problem" as it is at level 1. The GM still has to select which monsters can make a playable encounter. The only workable definition of balance in a RPG I've seen is "all characters contributes just as much to the party". A flying character doesn't by default contribute more. Yes, it does. It contributes a level of mobility that is absolutely unprecedented. There are no racial features or even total combined racial packages in general that contribute so much to what a party can do. I challenge you to find me any other existing racial feature with so much utility. The closest you may get is Changeling Disguise. Teleport. Flight won't let you get through a tiny hole in a wall, teleport will. Flight lets a PC get away without climbing, jumping or swimming in many circumstances. Real big, might get you a few free successes at skill challenges. Btw, flight to ignore all difficult terrain doesn't have any of those problems. Ignoring difficult terrain is just the easiest way to illustrate that it's overpowered. We all also know that the Elf racial feature Wild Step is pretty nice. Flight is a racial feature with so much utility that ignoring difficult terrain is generally overlooked as minor among everything that it can do. So? I wasn't talking about how ignoring difficult terrain was minor in comparision to what else flight could do, I was talking about how ignoring difficult terrain doesn't cause any additional problems for the GM. It's a really big feature, but that's all it is. It's just a powerful feature in general, but downgrade the rest of the features and that's not a problem. It could be the only feature that a race got and the race would still be overpowered because of it. So you're saying that for an elf to be able to ignore difficult terrain when making normal moves is worth giving up both the racial power and the perception bonus? And it would still be overpowered? I don't think you'll find a lot of people who'd agree with you!
#25 Crimson_Concerto Mar 07, 2011 3:06:11	Since the only things you need to counter a flying character is flying monster and/or monsters with ranged attacks, and both of those things exist from level 1 and up, the system is actually able to handle it. "is able to" =/= "designed to" Nope, doesn't fly. Cute pun. If there is even one monster that can't fight a flying character at the levels where PCs can get permanent flight by the rules it's just as much a "problem" as it is at level 1. I disagree. At higher levels, it's more acceptable for there to be monsters that are completely unable to deal with certain PC abilities. Teleport. Flight won't let you get through a tiny hole in a wall, teleport will. And there are no PC races that can teleport at-will, so there we go. Flight lets a PC get away without climbing, jumping or swimming in many circumstances. Which is another reason why it's broken. It makes the majority of an entire skill entirely obsolete. Even one of the most powerful skill-enhancing racial feature, the Goliath's Powerful Athlete, doesn't make that skill obsolete. So? I wasn't talking about how ignoring difficult terrain was minor in comparision to what else flight could do, I was talking about how ignoring difficult terrain doesn't cause any additional problems for the GM. It's a really big feature, but that's all it is. I know that you weren't talking about it. It's convenient not to talk about it, which is why I brought it up. It's not just a "really big feature"; it's a feature objectively more powerful than another existing racial feature that's already considered to be a really big feature. And that's just a minor part of what flight can grant you. So you're saying that for an elf to be able to ignore difficult terrain when making normal moves is worth giving up both the racial power and the perception bonus? I never said anything of the sort. But we're not just talking about ignoring difficult terrain, are we? No, we're talking about a feature where ignoring difficult terrain is a relatively minor function of its benefit. But yes, it's definitely worth giving up Group Awareness, Low-Light Vision, and that racial weapon proficiency. Racial powers don't count. If a feature would be balanced only by getting rid of all of the rest of the race's other features including its racial power, then it's not appropriate for a PC race. Feel free to replace "racial power" in the previous sentence with standard racial skill bonuses, racial ability score bonuses, and/or etc.
#26 Sabelkatten Mar 07, 2011 9:31:45	CC, could you provide a definition on what you call "unbalanced"? We seem to be talking about different things here. I use "unbalanced" as a substitute for "over-/under-powered" only when talking about a specific comparision. When talking about generalities I (try to) use "unbalanced" only when talking about something that can't be balanced (i.e. "immune to all damage" would be unbalanced in general). A PC race with at-will combat flight would almost certainly be unbalanced compared to the already existing races since it's a very powerful ability. But there's nothing that makes it always unbalanced, since a GM could set up a campaign where the advantage is either neutralized or all other races gets something to counter it with. IOW at-will flight would make pretty much any possible race with it overpowered (in a normal campaign), but it's just power - other races could get more power to compensate and it would be balanced. You seem to be classifying anything above an arbitary level of power as "unbalanced", giving it the same status as the truly "unbalanceable" powers. So you're saying that for an elf to be able to ignore difficult terrain when making normal moves is worth giving up both the racial power and the perception bonus?
#27 rampant Mar 07, 2011 11:35:19	I'm fairly certain ignoring almost all difficult terrain is worth more than that actually.
#28 Fireclave Mar 07, 2011 21:56:13	A PC race with at-will combat flight would almost certainly be unbalanced compared to the already existing races since it's a very powerful ability. But there's nothing that makes it always unbalanced, since a GM could set up a campaign where the advantage is either neutralized or all other races gets something to counter it with. And that's exactly the issue. When discussing whether material is balanced or not it is usually assumed to be in comparison to the status quo and precedents established by the official default game rules and material. Balanced material does not require the players or DM to make additional changes in order to have the introduced material plays nice with the game as written. Racial at-will flight, as you have admited, does require the DM to adjust the game to make the option balanced again. It may not be especially hard to do, and for an experienced DM it may be trivially easy, but that doesn't change the fact at-will flight requires a significant change to normal encounter and adventure design to make sure that the ability does not disrupt the game. That's not to say that such an option can't or should not exist when the gaming group is willing to facilitate those changes and make the proper concessions. That's one of the best things about homebrewing. You can stretch the limits of the normal baseline or ignore it completely, customizing the D&D experience for what is most fun for you and your group. And there is nothing wrong with that. But willingness to make non-conventional options work in one's own campaigns does not make the material balanced for normal play - that is, "balanced". And when asking the community for critiques or publishing for others to use, that normal play will be the baseline assumed unless otherwise indicated.
#29 slobo777a Mar 08, 2011 7:23:23	Or in other words, run a team of harpies through KotS, and count how many of the encounters and story elements would be trivialised by At-Will flight (or whatever PC race ability is under discussion). A "balanced" race should be assumed to not cause problems when used RAW with published material. By that measure, Heroic tier flying characters are a problem. But should be reasonable to present "unbalanced" PC races for critique here, have the unbalanced parts disected to help the designer understand what they need to change to cover their homebrew campaign, and move on . . . such a race should have simple notes added such as "for a fun game you will need to alter encounters to include more flying and range-capable enemies, if a PC uses this race"

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

spreetcg

Mar 04, 2011 19:47:13

Harpy
Average height:5'0-5'6
average weight:120- 145

+2cha and +2 dex or con
+2 bluff, +2 acrobatics
size: medium
speed: 6
languages: common
vison: normal
Busrt of flight: You gain the burst of flight racial power
.screached ears: you gain rest. 5 thunder, This increases to 10 at 11th and 15 at 21st level
fey orgin(you are consitered to be fey for purposes for effects)
Scatting screech: you gain the scatting screech power
standard; encounter
close burst 2: (all creatures)cha +3/6/9 vs. fort
special: deafened are immune
Hit: cha thunder damage and target is slided 2 squares and suffers and -2 pentalty to attack rolls until end of next turn
level 11: 1d4+ cha thunder damage and target is also deafened(save ends)
level 21 2d4 + cha thunder damage

Bust of flight; move, encounter
you suddently flap you broad wings in a short matter of time, substaining it for a minute.
You fly your speed +2 and you gain a clumsy fly speed at the end of the movement equal to your speed +2 until end of next turn or if you land before end of next turn. At the end of next turn if you are still in te air, you fall.

any thoughts? Im planning to use this as a charcter race and for creating NPCs for dark sun.

rampant

Mar 04, 2011 20:21:11

You're pretty light on features, the dazing part of that power is too much lower the damage and find a less potent condition, fly is just asking to host the next round of an old tired debate.

spreetcg

Mar 04, 2011 21:17:43

Taking fly away is just taking the flavor of harpy away into the trash, How is that too much damage? its spreaded against targets. I might change the condition but the damage is fine by me.

rampant

Mar 04, 2011 21:55:54

1. Considering how much pepper they need, no one gives a damn about a harpy's flavor.
2. I didn't say get rid of flying i just warned you that it inspires 12 page debates, me I'm gonna just tack it up as a major feature as long as it stays clumsy till at least paragon.
3. A d-born gets a close blast 3 (9 squares) with he same damage, yours gives a close burst 2 (16 squares). Also you inflict a status condition, and deal untyped damage. So yeah that power needs to be toned down somewhere.
4. Think up some other features.

natural20username

Mar 04, 2011 22:21:00

I'll kick off the predicted round of objections to flying. This doesn't really matter for NPCs, but for PCs, flying creates too much potential for hanging around 20 feet of the ground sniping people. I'm sure that Crimson_Concerto will eventually get around to commenting that dazed is a powerful status condition (which it is).

I'd agree with the previous poster that the burst attack IS pretty powerful when comparded to the dragonborn. It deals untyped damage, inflicts a very dangerous status condition, and is a larger area.

On a less negative note, I'd vote for letting Harpies use their primary ability score (like for themes) for their attack power, even if it's nonstandard. I personally think it does a lot to avoid pigeonholing.

rampant

Mar 04, 2011 22:33:49

There's also the fact that it just saves so much hassle trying to pick out which ability scores should or shouldn't be allowed.

spreetcg

Mar 04, 2011 22:59:11

Thnaks for the suggestions. Note on the flying: it's going to stay clumsy through all tiers of play.

rampant

Mar 04, 2011 23:05:54

Altitude Limit needs to be cleaned up a bit. Right now you only fall if you forget to say "I end my move".

incenjucar

Mar 04, 2011 23:11:36

I would seriously suggest removing flight from the race itself and just giving them access to a racial paragon path that provided it, possibly with utility power options of varying strengths that they can swap their usual utilities for until they reach that path, ala Shades.

#10

salla

Mar 04, 2011 23:13:39

I would seriously suggest removing flight from the race itself and just giving them access to a racial paragon path that provided it, possibly with utility power options of varying strengths that they can swap their usual utilities for until they reach that path, ala Shades.

It would work fine, I think, as an encounter power a la the Genasi wind-manifestation.

#11

spreetcg

Mar 04, 2011 23:21:29

Fixed things up, Put an penaltyfor flying above 30ft from the ground and ending movment.

Also, I wouldn't remove flight(clumsy), this is intended as a monster race not a full fleged Pc race. I'm describing not wild-harpys. Just like urban ones.

#12

rampant

Mar 04, 2011 23:29:31

Instead of an altitude limit, what if you restricted how long they could stay in the air without landing?

#13

Sabelkatten

Mar 05, 2011 4:04:55

Flying isn't inherently unbalanced, but it means the GM has to design all encounters to match the character which adds a lot of extra work. It also tends to make for real unintresting encounters!

Clumsy doesn't really help since the problem is having a character that can be completely immune to all enemies unless they to can fly or have better range.

For a race that is supposed to fly all the time I'd limit them to having to land at the end of each turn, that gives a lot of mobility but means the enemy can still engage them as normal. Feats can then add some ability to stay in the air for longer periods.

For a racial attack I'd give them a defensive controller-style effect instead of damage. Close burst, slide hit targets and give them some temporary penalty (minus to attacks?).

#14

Fireclave

Mar 05, 2011 4:23:54

As others have pointed out, the at-will flight (even with the altitude limit) is the biggest issue since its generally too powerful in the hands of PCs, especially before mid-paragon. If you're just intending to use this racial write up for NPCs and monsters (which I would assume from your thread titles), then its a non issue. If you're prepared to handle the consequences of flight in your own games then that's fine, though the race definately won't be balanced compared to standard races.

Also the encounter power needs some tweaks. The attack bonus should scale per tier, idealy using the newer +3/+6/+9 standard. And you need to allow more option for determining the attack bonus besides charisma. Either allow three options like the dragonborn's Dragonbreath power, or follow the example set by themes and simply allow the highest stat to apply.

#15

alitain

Mar 05, 2011 13:21:52

blah, flying is fine. It's not honestly that much work for a DM. Ranged monsters can focus on the flier. Otherwise, alititude limit should be fine. If they can only fly a couple squares above the group it'll keep them from say flying over a dark chasm and whatnot, or just flying up an incredible tall wall or mountain cliff. You can have feets to increase or enhance it.

In our game right now all our character can fly, through various means because several of our battles function in the air(dragons, gotta love'em), and it's fine. Sometimes we're also in areas that keep our flying dampened and all, depending on the DM. No biggie, works out fine and it's never been hard for him to work out. Even when we fight enemies that don't fly it still works fine and isn't abusive.

#16

natural20username

Mar 05, 2011 18:28:17

@Alitain

Disagree.

Problems:
All encounters must include archers. Therefore that rules out any solo with no ranged capabilities, rules out many monster races that wouldn't make sense for them to have ranged attacks. Altitude limits help, and if the altitude limit was say 5 feet off the ground, the fact that melee monsters would still have a place in the adventure would make it totally fine. It doesn't make it harder for the DM to run encounters, it just cuts off lots of adventure plots.

#17

alitain

Mar 05, 2011 18:37:31

@Alitain

Disagree.

Problems:
All encounters must include archers. Therefore that rules out any solo with no ranged capabilities, rules out many monster races that wouldn't make sense for them to have ranged attacks. Altitude limits help, and if the altitude limit was say 5 feet off the ground, the fact that melee monsters would still have a place in the adventure would make it totally fine. It doesn't make it harder for the DM to run encounters, it just cuts off lots of adventure plots.

I've never run, or been in, a solo fight that didn't have other enemies. So don't know about that, but honestly it isn't hard to add a ranged attack to the monster, flavored to fit. Whether it's just a crossbow, magic bolt, etc. And an altitude limit of 5 ft is a waste aside from floating over trap squares and dirty floors, I'd say at least 15ft you get some height so it feels like you can actually fly, without being able to soar into the heavens.

And if the DM doesn't want to include ranged monsters in combat, then the melee monsters can jump for the harpy and yank it down. Then if it tries to fly while adjacent, OA is provoked and makes things less easy for the harpy to fly away again if the enemy keeps on it. Look I'm not saying it's easy having a flying PC, but it also isn't that big a deal either.

#18

spreetcg

Mar 05, 2011 19:12:35

I agree with alitain, an altitude limit of 15 ft would work. I would make this only apply to Pc's and certain NPC harpies.

#19

natural20username

Mar 06, 2011 8:27:51

I'm not sure I made my point clear, flying is OK, but should be considered in the category of creating a chaotic evil PC. This means that your DM should be completely cool with it before you consider rolling up a harpy PC.

#20

Crimson_Concerto

Mar 07, 2011 0:43:09

speed: 6, fly 8(clumsy)
altitude limit(15 ft.):You can fly up to three squares above the ground that is below you. If you fly to a altitude above 15 ft. you suddenly crash(NPC's may or not have this).

Absolutely broken. Frankly, I have no idea why there's even any sort of debate about this. At-will flight could have an altitude limit of zero and still be absolutely broken on a PC race if for no other reason than because it allows a character to completely ignore difficult terrain. The closest existing feature to that would be the Elf's Wild Step, and it's limited to shifts.

Also, even if you could balance it with an altitude limit (which you can't), that altitude limit would be 5. Otherwise, the race would effectively be immune to the melee attacks of a lot of medium creatures, which is broken.

If you want your race to have flight, then make that your race's encounter power.

Flying isn't inherently unbalanced, but it means the GM has to design all encounters to match the character which adds a lot of extra work.

That is the definition of unbalanced. If it were balanced, then the DM wouldn't have to go out of their way to balance it, now would they?

Taking fly away is just taking the flavor of harpy away into the trash...

Taking away massive size is just taking the flavor of the Tarrasque away into the trash, which is exactly why the Tarrasque should never be a PC race. Seriously, if a race concept must be mechanically broken in order to remain thematically accurate, then that race concept is not suitable to be a PC race, and that's that.

If you want to make some half-harpies or pseudo-harpies or what have you that can have this flight removed, then you can get somewhere, but otherwise, this is doomed to brokenness.

Scatting screech:
standard; encounter
close burst 2: (all creatures)cha +3/6/9 vs. fort
special: deafened are immune
Hit: cha thunder damage and target is slided 2 squares and suffers and -2 pentalty to attack rolls until end of next turn
level 11: 1d4+ cha thunder damage and target is also deafened(save ends)
level 21 2d4 + cha thunder damage

A) Standard Action racial powers are bad. They interfere with character action economies in ways that are difficult to compromise with their class and party roles. Note that most existing racial attack powers are minor actions. The singular existing standard action racial power, the Minotaur's Goring Charge, is viewed as being horrifically designed in quite a number of ways, standard action use being one of them, so it will not function as an excuse to repeat that mistake.
B) It is considered very bad form for an attack racial power to only allow a single ability score option to attack and/or damage. You should have at least three ability score options.
C) You don't add additional effects at later levels when you're scaling a racial power up. If the effects that the power had at first level were not not such that they were suitable and useful all the way to level 30, then it was not a very good effect.
D) You do not attach a (save ends) effect to an encounter power, especially not an effect like deafened. People have a massive tendency to underestimate a lot of conditions, and deafened is one of them. -10 penalty to Perception checks (save ends) is ridiculous for an encounter power.

#21

Sabelkatten

Mar 07, 2011 2:06:56

Flying isn't inherently unbalanced, but it means the GM has to design all encounters to match the character which adds a lot of extra work.

That is the definition of unbalanced. If it were balanced, then the DM wouldn't have to go out of their way to balance it, now would they?

By that definition almost any ability is unbalanced. F.ex. you shouldn't allow ranged weapons at all, since the DM has to keep those in mind when designing encounters as well. And of course permanent flight should not be available at any level if it is unbalanced!

The only workable definition of balance in a RPG I've seen is "all characters contributes just as much to the party". A flying character doesn't by default contribute more.

But the GM already has a lot to keep in mind when designing encounters, and adding a big thing like a flying character adds a lot to his workload. That is bad!

Btw, flight to ignore all difficult terrain doesn't have any of those problems. It's just a powerful feature in general, but downgrade the rest of the features and that's not a problem.

#22

Crimson_Concerto

Mar 07, 2011 2:26:13

By that definition almost any ability is unbalanced.

No, that's an incredible stretch.

you shouldn't allow ranged weapons at all, since the DM has to keep those in mind when designing encounters as well.

But the DM doesn't have to keep that in mind when designing encounter, at least not the vast majority of the time. The system is built with ranged weapons in mind. The system is not built with unlimited flight at level 1 in mind; in fact is was specifically and deliberately designed without that possibility in mind.

And of course permanent flight should not be available at any level if it is unbalanced!

It's not necessarily unbalanced at higher levels. There are plenty of things that are brokenly good at early levels while not being that big of a deal at later levels. Flight is one of them.

The only workable definition of balance in a RPG I've seen is "all characters contributes just as much to the party". A flying character doesn't by default contribute more.

Yes, it does. It contributes a level of mobility that is absolutely unprecedented. There are no racial features or even total combined racial packages in general that contribute so much to what a party can do. I challenge you to find me any other existing racial feature with so much utility. The closest you may get is Changeling Disguise.

Btw, flight to ignore all difficult terrain doesn't have any of those problems.

Ignoring difficult terrain is just the easiest way to illustrate that it's overpowered. We all also know that the Elf racial feature Wild Step is pretty nice. Flight is a racial feature with so much utility that ignoring difficult terrain is generally overlooked as minor among everything that it can do.

It's just a powerful feature in general, but downgrade the rest of the features and that's not a problem.

It could be the only feature that a race got and the race would still be overpowered because of it.

#23

rampant

Mar 07, 2011 2:35:13

As a monster write up for making enemy harpy fighters/clerics/wizards, the flight wouldn't be a problem (the song power still needs fixing), in fact you could use the harpy's flight ability right out of the book.

In fact it might be even simpler to use the dmg templates to create them from the monster stats rather than trying to go through the character class.

The problem lies in when we try to give any sort of perma flight to low level characters. You'll notice that even the winged paragon paths don't hand out full unlimited combat flight. That's because given the importance of positioning in this edition the ability to simply fly over obstructing terrain and enemies is incredibly powerful. It's akin to phasing a lot of the time, you wouldn't hand out permanent phasing to a level 1 character would you?

#24

Sabelkatten

Mar 07, 2011 2:44:41

By that definition almost any ability is unbalanced.

No, that's an incredible stretch.

you shouldn't allow ranged weapons at all, since the DM has to keep those in mind when designing encounters as well.

But the DM doesn't have to keep that in mind when designing encounter, at least not the vast majority of the time. The system is built with ranged weapons in mind. The system is not built with unlimited flight at level 1 in mind; in fact is was specifically and deliberately designed without that possibility in mind.

Since the only things you need to counter a flying character is flying monster and/or monsters with ranged attacks, and both of those things exist from level 1 and up, the system is actually able to handle it.

And of course permanent flight should not be available at any level if it is unbalanced!

It's not necessarily unbalanced at higher levels. There are plenty of things that are brokenly good at early levels while not being that big of a deal at later levels. Flight is one of them.

Nope, doesn't fly. If there is even one monster that can't fight a flying character at the levels where PCs can get permanent flight by the rules it's just as much a "problem" as it is at level 1. The GM still has to select which monsters can make a playable encounter.

The only workable definition of balance in a RPG I've seen is "all characters contributes just as much to the party". A flying character doesn't by default contribute more.

Yes, it does. It contributes a level of mobility that is absolutely unprecedented. There are no racial features or even total combined racial packages in general that contribute so much to what a party can do. I challenge you to find me any other existing racial feature with so much utility. The closest you may get is Changeling Disguise.

Teleport. Flight won't let you get through a tiny hole in a wall, teleport will.

Flight lets a PC get away without climbing, jumping or swimming in many circumstances. Real big, might get you a few free successes at skill challenges.

Btw, flight to ignore all difficult terrain doesn't have any of those problems.

Ignoring difficult terrain is just the easiest way to illustrate that it's overpowered. We all also know that the Elf racial feature Wild Step is pretty nice. Flight is a racial feature with so much utility that ignoring difficult terrain is generally overlooked as minor among everything that it can do.

So? I wasn't talking about how ignoring difficult terrain was minor in comparision to what else flight could do, I was talking about how ignoring difficult terrain doesn't cause any additional problems for the GM. It's a really big feature, but that's all it is.

It's just a powerful feature in general, but downgrade the rest of the features and that's not a problem.

It could be the only feature that a race got and the race would still be overpowered because of it.

So you're saying that for an elf to be able to ignore difficult terrain when making normal moves is worth giving up both the racial power and the perception bonus? And it would still be overpowered? I don't think you'll find a lot of people who'd agree with you!

#25

Crimson_Concerto

Mar 07, 2011 3:06:11

Since the only things you need to counter a flying character is flying monster and/or monsters with ranged attacks, and both of those things exist from level 1 and up, the system is actually able to handle it.

"is able to" =/= "designed to"

Nope, doesn't fly.

Cute pun.

If there is even one monster that can't fight a flying character at the levels where PCs can get permanent flight by the rules it's just as much a "problem" as it is at level 1.

I disagree. At higher levels, it's more acceptable for there to be monsters that are completely unable to deal with certain PC abilities.

Teleport. Flight won't let you get through a tiny hole in a wall, teleport will.

And there are no PC races that can teleport at-will, so there we go.

Flight lets a PC get away without climbing, jumping or swimming in many circumstances.

Which is another reason why it's broken. It makes the majority of an entire skill entirely obsolete. Even one of the most powerful skill-enhancing racial feature, the Goliath's Powerful Athlete, doesn't make that skill obsolete.

So? I wasn't talking about how ignoring difficult terrain was minor in comparision to what else flight could do, I was talking about how ignoring difficult terrain doesn't cause any additional problems for the GM. It's a really big feature, but that's all it is.

I know that you weren't talking about it. It's convenient not to talk about it, which is why I brought it up. It's not just a "really big feature"; it's a feature objectively more powerful than another existing racial feature that's already considered to be a really big feature. And that's just a minor part of what flight can grant you.

So you're saying that for an elf to be able to ignore difficult terrain when making normal moves is worth giving up both the racial power and the perception bonus?

I never said anything of the sort*. But we're not just talking about ignoring difficult terrain, are we? No, we're talking about a feature where ignoring difficult terrain is a relatively minor function of its benefit.

*But yes, it's definitely worth giving up Group Awareness, Low-Light Vision, and that racial weapon proficiency.
Racial powers don't count. If a feature would be balanced only by getting rid of all of the rest of the race's other features including its racial power, then it's not appropriate for a PC race. Feel free to replace "racial power" in the previous sentence with standard racial skill bonuses, racial ability score bonuses, and/or etc.

#26

Sabelkatten

Mar 07, 2011 9:31:45

CC, could you provide a definition on what you call "unbalanced"? We seem to be talking about different things here.

I use "unbalanced" as a substitute for "over-/under-powered" only when talking about a specific comparision. When talking about generalities I (try to) use "unbalanced" only when talking about something that can't be balanced (i.e. "immune to all damage" would be unbalanced in general).

A PC race with at-will combat flight would almost certainly be unbalanced compared to the already existing races since it's a very powerful ability. But there's nothing that makes it always unbalanced, since a GM could set up a campaign where the advantage is either neutralized or all other races gets something to counter it with.

IOW at-will flight would make pretty much any possible race with it overpowered (in a normal campaign), but it's just power - other races could get more power to compensate and it would be balanced.

You seem to be classifying anything above an arbitary level of power as "unbalanced", giving it the same status as the truly "unbalanceable" powers.

So you're saying that for an elf to be able to ignore difficult terrain when making normal moves is worth giving up both the racial power and the perception bonus?

#27

rampant

Mar 07, 2011 11:35:19

I'm fairly certain ignoring almost all difficult terrain is worth more than that actually.

#28

Fireclave

Mar 07, 2011 21:56:13

A PC race with at-will combat flight would almost certainly be unbalanced compared to the already existing races since it's a very powerful ability. But there's nothing that makes it always unbalanced, since a GM could set up a campaign where the advantage is either neutralized or all other races gets something to counter it with.

And that's exactly the issue. When discussing whether material is balanced or not it is usually assumed to be in comparison to the status quo and precedents established by the official default game rules and material.

Balanced material does not require the players or DM to make additional changes in order to have the introduced material plays nice with the game as written. Racial at-will flight, as you have admited, does require the DM to adjust the game to make the option balanced again.

It may not be especially hard to do, and for an experienced DM it may be trivially easy, but that doesn't change the fact at-will flight requires a significant change to normal encounter and adventure design to make sure that the ability does not disrupt the game.

That's not to say that such an option can't or should not exist when the gaming group is willing to facilitate those changes and make the proper concessions. That's one of the best things about homebrewing. You can stretch the limits of the normal baseline or ignore it completely, customizing the D&D experience for what is most fun for you and your group. And there is nothing wrong with that.

But willingness to make non-conventional options work in one's own campaigns does not make the material balanced for normal play - that is, "balanced". And when asking the community for critiques or publishing for others to use, that normal play will be the baseline assumed unless otherwise indicated.

#29

slobo777a

Mar 08, 2011 7:23:23

Or in other words, run a team of harpies through KotS, and count how many of the encounters and story elements would be trivialised by At-Will flight (or whatever PC race ability is under discussion).

A "balanced" race should be assumed to not cause problems when used RAW with published material. By that measure, Heroic tier flying characters are a problem.

But should be reasonable to present "unbalanced" PC races for critique here, have the unbalanced parts disected to help the designer understand what they need to change to cover their homebrew campaign, and move on . . . such a race should have simple notes added such as "for a fun game you will need to alter encounters to include more flying and range-capable enemies, if a PC uses this race"