Has anyone tried to adapt DnD to the Vertigo Universe? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Has anyone tried to adapt DnD to the Vertigo Universe?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
OskarOisinson
Jul 20, 2010 1:17:02 So, I had an idea inspired by these comics (The Sandman, Hellblazer, Lucifer, Books of Magic, Mister E, etc.) for an alternative cosmology to DnD. There would be a lot of overlap but the key difference would be that the cosmology is actually a manifestation of the collective unconscious, and peopled by dream archetypes and their various cultural or anthropomorphised representations. As with the comics, the cosmology would rely a lot on Jungian psychology, Joseph Campbell meta-mythology, and some traces of chaos magic theory.

I was wondering if anyone has ever approached or encountered any of these concepts or materials before in DnD and or if anyone cared to give some insight into how one might make such a cosmology compatible with DnD. One of my ideas was for dreamtime to be an active event, drawing on aboriginal elements such as the dreaming and ley lines as well as oneiromancy (planar travel) rituals, and psychonautics, or astral projection. However, as dreaming, or, in this scenario, being in the dreaming are not the only means of shifting psychic perception, I wonder how everyone would approach things like drug use and the like.

Anyway, let me know your thoughts, even if you're not entirely familiar with all the things I mentioned. Thanks.
#2
malphaeus
Jul 20, 2010 15:58:38 Is this for 3rd or 4th edition?

I'll assume 4th in this reply (3rd and 3.5 would work also, just different things to consider).

Primary considerations would be power sources and how you treat those. Are all powers and power sources tied into collective subconscious? are they all different manifestations of a universal aether/chi/mana/kia?

How do different races effect different aspects of the cosmology? the eladrin dream is going to be very different from the human dream which will be different from the aboleth dream. Would each race have it's own endless/egregore? would some be combined? Is each egregore a manifestation of something fundamental?

In a lot of ways, you don't need to change the mechanics to reflect the shift in cosmology.

D&D isn't necessarily the best game to do a malliable/morphic reality if you want to introduce specific mechanics for chemognosis, astral travel, dream walking, etc. But Overlaying aesthetic qualities shouldn't be too difficult.

Some of the Planescape material from 2e should help with expanded cosmologies and strangenesses. Chemognosis isn't handled well in a lot of games. the Book of vile darkness from 3e deals with drug use a little...but not in the way you'd probably want to implement it.

For interesting materials that have dealt with these themes I'd look at White Wolfs Mage and Changeling Games, Little Fears, Simbedia's Witchcraft, Unknown Armies, and Nephilim.

Hope that helps...best i can give with what I know.
#3
OskarOisinson
Jul 20, 2010 16:50:24 I think as far as power goes, I wouldn't change too much. My thinking is that, as opposed to real-world magic, which is largely auto-psychological and thus, perceptual in its primary effect (with reality manipulation via the willful actualization of contrived subconscious inceptions being a secondary effect), the power of magic in a fantastic setting such as DnD is actual. Magic is not mundane, but it operates in a substantial way even in mundane reality, thus making reality manipulation the direct effect of ritual/gnosis/etc. rather than the secondary effect... Why is this?

I don't know if I can think all this stuff out right now, but I'd like to continue this thread quite a bit. I can see already that it's all going to be VERRRRY meta but if we could figure this out, I would LOVE to use it in a game someday. I'm really not looking to change any mechanics at all, I just want to figure out a cosmology based on 'inner space' rather than 'outer space' such as they exist within the DnD context.

#4
OskarOisinson
Jul 25, 2010 21:08:44 I suppose what I would have people is that I would tell them say in the case of Dream/Morpheus/Oneiros or something that what they recognize is dream, then let the characters fill in the details in their heads. If the entity or whatever was disguised it wouldn't matter because they would have an intentional form then. Likewise, you could use this for environments. It wouldn't be perfect, but one way to fix it, in the case that I have to describe something explicitly, is that I assume they were in a collective dream or unconscious state or in the case of maybe someone else travelling to a personal Hell, index it to that character's particular unconscious.

I think with powers, they would use different unconscious interfaces (say a feywild of the mind or a mental abyss) to represent different power sources and their associated cosmology but there would likely have to be something essentially magical about the world.... which is ok, since it's a fantasy rpg anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 OskarOisinson Jul 20, 2010 1:17:02	So, I had an idea inspired by these comics (The Sandman, Hellblazer, Lucifer, Books of Magic, Mister E, etc.) for an alternative cosmology to DnD. There would be a lot of overlap but the key difference would be that the cosmology is actually a manifestation of the collective unconscious, and peopled by dream archetypes and their various cultural or anthropomorphised representations. As with the comics, the cosmology would rely a lot on Jungian psychology, Joseph Campbell meta-mythology, and some traces of chaos magic theory. I was wondering if anyone has ever approached or encountered any of these concepts or materials before in DnD and or if anyone cared to give some insight into how one might make such a cosmology compatible with DnD. One of my ideas was for dreamtime to be an active event, drawing on aboriginal elements such as the dreaming and ley lines as well as oneiromancy (planar travel) rituals, and psychonautics, or astral projection. However, as dreaming, or, in this scenario, being in the dreaming are not the only means of shifting psychic perception, I wonder how everyone would approach things like drug use and the like. Anyway, let me know your thoughts, even if you're not entirely familiar with all the things I mentioned. Thanks.
#2 malphaeus Jul 20, 2010 15:58:38	Is this for 3rd or 4th edition? I'll assume 4th in this reply (3rd and 3.5 would work also, just different things to consider). Primary considerations would be power sources and how you treat those. Are all powers and power sources tied into collective subconscious? are they all different manifestations of a universal aether/chi/mana/kia? How do different races effect different aspects of the cosmology? the eladrin dream is going to be very different from the human dream which will be different from the aboleth dream. Would each race have it's own endless/egregore? would some be combined? Is each egregore a manifestation of something fundamental? In a lot of ways, you don't need to change the mechanics to reflect the shift in cosmology. D&D isn't necessarily the best game to do a malliable/morphic reality if you want to introduce specific mechanics for chemognosis, astral travel, dream walking, etc. But Overlaying aesthetic qualities shouldn't be too difficult. Some of the Planescape material from 2e should help with expanded cosmologies and strangenesses. Chemognosis isn't handled well in a lot of games. the Book of vile darkness from 3e deals with drug use a little...but not in the way you'd probably want to implement it. For interesting materials that have dealt with these themes I'd look at White Wolfs Mage and Changeling Games, Little Fears, Simbedia's Witchcraft, Unknown Armies, and Nephilim. Hope that helps...best i can give with what I know.
#3 OskarOisinson Jul 20, 2010 16:50:24	I think as far as power goes, I wouldn't change too much. My thinking is that, as opposed to real-world magic, which is largely auto-psychological and thus, perceptual in its primary effect (with reality manipulation via the willful actualization of contrived subconscious inceptions being a secondary effect), the power of magic in a fantastic setting such as DnD is actual. Magic is not mundane, but it operates in a substantial way even in mundane reality, thus making reality manipulation the direct effect of ritual/gnosis/etc. rather than the secondary effect... Why is this? I don't know if I can think all this stuff out right now, but I'd like to continue this thread quite a bit. I can see already that it's all going to be VERRRRY meta but if we could figure this out, I would LOVE to use it in a game someday. I'm really not looking to change any mechanics at all, I just want to figure out a cosmology based on 'inner space' rather than 'outer space' such as they exist within the DnD context.
#4 OskarOisinson Jul 25, 2010 21:08:44	I suppose what I would have people is that I would tell them say in the case of Dream/Morpheus/Oneiros or something that what they recognize is dream, then let the characters fill in the details in their heads. If the entity or whatever was disguised it wouldn't matter because they would have an intentional form then. Likewise, you could use this for environments. It wouldn't be perfect, but one way to fix it, in the case that I have to describe something explicitly, is that I assume they were in a collective dream or unconscious state or in the case of maybe someone else travelling to a personal Hell, index it to that character's particular unconscious. I think with powers, they would use different unconscious interfaces (say a feywild of the mind or a mental abyss) to represent different power sources and their associated cosmology but there would likely have to be something essentially magical about the world.... which is ok, since it's a fantasy rpg anyway.