Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 P1NBACK May 04, 2010 15:16:11	What difference would it make if you just assumed PCs always had surges, and then just stopped tracking them entirely? Seems to me that in my history with 4E, I've very rarely had situations where the PCs were dangerously low on Healing Surges. In addition, they would usually take an extended rest if they were. What's the point?
#2 kazerima May 04, 2010 15:25:50	What difference would it make if you just assumed PCs always had surges, and then just stopped tracking them entirely? Seems to me that in my history with 4E, I've very rarely had situations where the PCs were dangerously low on Healing Surges. In addition, they would usually take an extended rest if they were. What's the point? um.. to make them take an extended rest so they dont have 5000 milestones?
#3 P1NBACK May 04, 2010 15:27:25	um.. to make them take an extended rest so they dont have 5000 milestones? That's it? So, if I said, "Every 4 encounters your **** 'refreshes'. Don't worry about tracking Healing Surges." That would fix the only thing wrong with removing Healing Surges entirely?
#4 kazerima May 04, 2010 15:30:05	um.. to make them take an extended rest so they dont have 5000 milestones? That's it? So, if I said, "Every 4 encounters your **** 'refreshes'. Don't worry about tracking Healing Surges." That would fix the only thing wrong with removing Healing Surges entirely? it essentially gives a sense of definition to the adventuring workday. It makes the party decide whether they should rest in safety or keep going, knowing they may run out of resources. The number of surges dramatically affects how long per day characters can keep going and lets them press their luck if they want to.
#5 salla May 04, 2010 15:30:39	What would be the benefit of removing them?
#6 P1NBACK May 04, 2010 15:33:05	What would be the benefit of removing them? To get rid of this: it essentially gives a sense of definition to the adventuring workday I'm looking to get rid of the "adventuring workday". I want my campaign to be fluid and not rely on "resting" at artibitrary time periods, but focus refreshes of Daily powers on more story-based events and not in-game 'time'.
#7 galkasaur May 04, 2010 15:38:59	What difference would it make if you just assumed PCs always had surges, and then just stopped tracking them entirely? Seems to me that in my history with 4E, I've very rarely had situations where the PCs were dangerously low on Healing Surges. In addition, they would usually take an extended rest if they were. What's the point? Try to push the PC's harder perhaps? I don't think I ever run the entire party out of healing surges before, however, there have been plenty of occasions where at least one PC was dangerously low on surges for a 4th or 5th encounter and it drastically affected their tactics in those fights. So, surges can affect tactics and are an important resource for PC's to keep track of. Especially considering some classes, namely defendres, rely upon their higher number of surges as part of their mechanics it just seem like a poor mechanic to mess with.
#8 kazerima May 04, 2010 15:40:10	What would be the benefit of removing them? To get rid of this: it essentially gives a sense of definition to the adventuring workday I'm looking to get rid of the "adventuring workday". I want my campaign to be fluid and not rely on "resting" at artibitrary time periods, but focus refreshes of Daily powers on more story-based events and not in-game 'time'. So, you basically want your characters to be awake for the duration of the entire campaign?
#9 P1NBACK May 04, 2010 15:43:19	So, you basically want your characters to be awake for the duration of the entire campaign? Huh? PCs would still need sleep... Otherwise they'd be incurring Endurance checks for a "forced march" like situation. Sleep has nothing to do with the mechanics of an extended rest. For example, Warforged characters are _always_ awake for the entire campaign. Do you ban Warforged or something?
#10 gargs454 May 04, 2010 15:45:34	As with all things in life, there's pro's and cons to both approaches.  One advantage not mentioned to the use of healing surges is that it helps to separate the beefier PCs from the runts.  Additionally, it makes the leaders a bit more important.  Sure, they'll still be highly useful for their in-combat healing ability, but they are not nearly as useful due to the unlimited healing out of combat.  In fact, the Bard Class Feature Song of Rest is rendered meaningless except for a few feats and items.  Certain feats are made obsolete by this as well (Restful Healing (or whatever it is) for example).  Finally, the limit on surges does create a sense of tension in the campaign -- "Do we press on, despite being low on resources, or do we rest up and hope the hostages are not killed in the next 6 hours?"  In my personal experiences I've had the PCs roll the dice and go another encounter with little to no surges.  One instance in particular resulted in the fighter dying since he only had one surge at the start of combat. On the flip side, doing away with the limit of surges makes it somewhat easier to design adventures/dungeons.  You no longer have to worry about "How far into the dungeon can my party get without resting?" and "Where do I need to give them a place to hole up?"  This does have the nice benefit of allowing the adventure to flow more freely. To me, the big problem revolves around when the dailies refresh.  I think the PCs really need to know what conditions will trigger their refreshing in order to be able to strategize the combats.  If you know that you have at least 3 more encounters before you'll get a chance to rest, you'll be more conservative with your dailies.  OTOH, if you know that your powers will refresh after this fight, then you can let loose with everything you got. In the end it really depends on your group.  If your players are never really low on surges, then removing the limit will not have a huge effect.  You should though give a boost of some sort to Bards since part of their balance is based on the Song of Rest class feature.
#11 P1NBACK May 04, 2010 15:45:49	Try to push the PC's harder perhaps? I don't think I ever run the entire party out of healing surges before, however, there have been plenty of occasions where at least one PC was dangerously low on surges for a 4th or 5th encounter and it drastically affected their tactics in those fights. So, surges can affect tactics and are an important resource for PC's to keep track of. Especially considering some classes, namely defendres, rely upon their higher number of surges as part of their mechanics it just seem like a poor mechanic to mess with. This is the exact opposite of the effect I'm looking for. I'm not looking to make the "4th or 5th" encounter of a "day" hard... It's kind of pointless right? So, as a DM, you're suggesting I have to force 4 or 5 encounters in a "day" to make Healing Surges worth tracking? ...
#12 kazerima May 04, 2010 15:51:25	So, you basically want your characters to be awake for the duration of the entire campaign? Huh? PCs would still need sleep... Otherwise they'd be incurring Endurance checks for a "forced march" like situation. Sleep has nothing to do with the mechanics of an extended rest. For example, Warforged characters are _always_ awake for the entire campaign. Do you ban Warforged or something?  no, instead that's just a special trait of being a warforged. It's like Eladrin having longswords or Drow having darkvision. Also, an extended rest is traditionally a time when the characters sleep, exausted from the events of the day.
#13 P1NBACK May 04, 2010 15:55:39	Good post. You have a ton of points. I'll respond one thing at a time. One advantage not mentioned to the use of healing surges is that it helps to separate the beefier PCs from the runts. I'll write a short skit to show you how pointless this is. The PCs end an encounter... PC 1: Damn. That was a hard fight. PC 2: Yeah. Anyone need healing? PC 3: I do! But, that puts me down to 1 surge! We need to rest. PC 4: I'm still good with 8 surges. Barely hurt. Ha! PC 3: Yeah, like I said... I am at 1 surge. All PCs: Ok. Let's rest. Additionally, it makes the leaders a bit more important.  Sure, they'll still be highly useful for their in-combat healing ability, but they are not nearly as useful due to the unlimited healing out of combat. In fact, the Bard Class Feature Song of Rest is rendered meaningless except for a few feats and items.  Certain feats are made obsolete by this as well (Restful Healing (or whatever it is) for example). I've never seen one player take the Restful Healing feat. Secondly, most of the time the players are taking a "longer" short rest to maximize their healing. There's only so many times a DM can "interrupt" the short rest. And, then, it's back to the maximizing. That's just plain simple smart moves by the players. The bard's class feature is of little effect here. Finally, the limit on surges does create a sense of tension in the campaign -- "Do we press on, despite being low on resources, or do we rest up and hope the hostages are not killed in the next 6 hours?"  In my personal experiences I've had the PCs roll the dice and go another encounter with little to no surges.  One instance in particular resulted in the fighter dying since he only had one surge at the start of combat. In my experiences, you must either press on or rest anyways. There's not a real choice here if the hostages are killed if we don't press on. We'll press on. Ok. ... No hostages? Ok. We'll rest. This is exactly what I'm talking about. And, again, as a DM, if I have to invent "time crunches" for every day of adventuring, that's not the system I want to use. On the flip side, doing away with the limit of surges makes it somewhat easier to design adventures/dungeons.  You no longer have to worry about "How far into the dungeon can my party get without resting?" and "Where do I need to give them a place to hole up?"  This does have the nice benefit of allowing the adventure to flow more freely. Exactly. Especially because I want to run a campaign _not_ set in a dungeon. To me, the big problem revolves around when the dailies refresh.  I think the PCs really need to know what conditions will trigger their refreshing in order to be able to strategize the combats.  If you know that you have at least 3 more encounters before you'll get a chance to rest, you'll be more conservative with your dailies.  OTOH, if you know that your powers will refresh after this fight, then you can let loose with everything you got. I've got a separate solution for Dailies which use a different refresh system entirely. In the end it really depends on your group.  If your players are never really low on surges, then removing the limit will not have a huge effect.  You should though give a boost of some sort to Bards since part of their balance is based on the Song of Rest class feature.  This is what I wanted to know. Thanks!
#14 P1NBACK May 04, 2010 15:57:18	no, instead that's just a special trait of being a warforged. It's like Eladrin having longswords or Drow having darkvision. Also, an extended rest is traditionally a time when the characters sleep, exausted from the events of the day. Right. I still plan to have sleeping. This has nothing to do with "refreshing" healing surges.
#15 galkasaur May 04, 2010 16:32:55	Try to push the PC's harder perhaps? I don't think I ever run the entire party out of healing surges before, however, there have been plenty of occasions where at least one PC was dangerously low on surges for a 4th or 5th encounter and it drastically affected their tactics in those fights. So, surges can affect tactics and are an important resource for PC's to keep track of. Especially considering some classes, namely defendres, rely upon their higher number of surges as part of their mechanics it just seem like a poor mechanic to mess with. This is the exact opposite of the effect I'm looking for. I'm not looking to make the "4th or 5th" encounter of a "day" hard... It's kind of pointless right? So, as a DM, you're suggesting I have to force 4 or 5 encounters in a "day" to make Healing Surges worth tracking? ... I'm suggesting that Healing Surges are as tactical a resource as Daily Powers and that they serve their purpose by entering into the party's calculations of what they can handle and how to approach combat. Accordingly, the party is challenged by considering throughout the day how to utilize their pool of surges and adjust tactics accordingly. Challenging the PC's is part of encounter design and their available surges are a part of that design and add to the challenge. It's not about making the 4th encounter 'hard' it's about challenging the PC's in tactical thinking, which Healing Surges play a part of. Depending on the campaign and particular adventure sometimes there are consequences to taking longer to finish a particular mission and Healing Surges are just another resource that factors in to whether PC's will accomplish a particular goal or not.
#16 gargs454 May 04, 2010 16:44:25	I've never seen one player take the Restful Healing feat. Secondly, most of the time the players are taking a "longer" short rest to maximize their healing. There's only so many times a DM can "interrupt" the short rest. And, then, it's back to the maximizing. That's just plain simple smart moves by the players. The bard's class feature is of little effect here. Thing is, with or without the restful healing feat, if your party is stringing together short rests (a mechanic I agree with btw) the leaders still help here.  The can use their assorted healing/majestic/inspiring words to conserve the use of healing surges.  This is particularly where the Song of Rest comes in.  A 1st level Bard for instance, would heal HS + 8 HPs, and possibly add 4 temps on top of it.  This is probably equal to or greater than 2 surges for most characters, with the only exceptions likely to be High Con Wardens (and even then you only come up about 1 HP short of 2 full surges).  Other things to consider are that there are some powers that allow a character to "spend" a Healing Surge in order to get some other effect (I know fighters have this for instance) and obviously limited surges are part of the give and take of these powers.  Additionally a number of items and powers offer up "surgeless" healing, which becomes a lot less powerful if there's no limit to the number of surges in a day.  Finally, I initially forgot artificers.  Their schtick is that their healing infusions do not require the recipient to spend a healing surge.  This is fairly important because the amount of the heal is partially balanced by the fact that its surgeless healing for the recipient. All this being said, as I said before, if none of this effects your party (no surgeless healing, no artificers/clerics, no PCs using powers that are powered by spent surges, etc.) then it really is up to you.  You just need to keep in mind that a number of potential characters and items will be less powerful as a result.
#17 darkwing_bmf May 04, 2010 16:53:41	The limited resources (dailies and healing surges) exist so that non-BBEG fights provide a challenge. Not only do you have to win against the lesser enemies, which is ususally a given if you can blow all of your dalies and healing surges, but you have to win in a way that leaves you enough resources to defeat the main enemy (this is what makes it challenging). On the other hand, many (most?) DMs will let you have an extened rest if you need it so the adventure can keep going without TPK. If that is the case then there's not much of a point in worrying about resource management.
#18 ekio May 04, 2010 17:23:56	Depends on the game you're running. I can't imagine not having healing surges in my game. I run a typical sand box low resource oh-man-I-have-enough-money-to-buy-a-horse kind of game.  Healing surges are like a currency for our game. Whatever the PCs decide to do, healing surges kind of limit what they can do for that particular day. Then again, as we play 4e, healing surges aren't merely a means to regain hit points. They're a metaphor as to how much **** they can do in one day. They represent fatigue, bad food, uncomfortable lodgings or the general nuances of being an adventurer. A failed endurance check after a day or two without food? You start out with your maximum set of healing surges minus one or two. If they fail a check to determine if something in the wilderness is poisonous, then they might lose a healing surge for the adverse effects. (I want to somehow homebrew a benefit to sleeping in an inn rather than in a camp, but I'm not sure how to go about that.) One time, they were in a cave looking for an ancient artifact that could break a pact with a certain devil the 15 year old wizard summoned naively and one of the ways out caved in. I ruled that after an hour of physically/metaphysically clearing a way through, participants would lose a healing surge to represent the work they put into it. (By no means do I gank people's healing surges willy-nilly. Only when the situation really calls for it.) But they might not be important for your game. I don't know anything about your game, but I can see healing surges being less important in a more traditional go here, do this, come home kind of adventure. Your call though. I think healing surges are important for the feel of my nitty gritty game. They're a means to a way of consequences and really lends itself to a feeling of tension within a story.
#19 stargazer_dragon May 04, 2010 21:02:06	I think useing in game ways to refresh a few healing surges would be better then removing them, healing surges are very ingrained into 4th ed as mentioned many things use healing surges. here is a short and by no means full list of some Potions class effects Deseases a lot of skill chalenges Healing powers and effects some status effects. traps and hazzrds out of combat So lets start with class effects, The paladin for instence relies on healing surges, it represents the power he is transfering to the other person to use lay on hands, Also think of a dwarf- how much more powerfull would a dwarf be if there were no healing surges. Pluss groups would definatly be able to adventure a LOT longer making stuff like out of combat hazards trap encounters and minion battlkes more or less a wast of time since these things wouldn't effectivly take anything away from the party. further there are a lot of deseases that effects healing surges without them these deseases would have to be remade Also potions could be used infinitly, just think of say the potion belt that allows potion use to be a free action, without surges chars could stock up on potions and make hard battles seam so much less dificult effectivly giving themselves a regen 10 (more if you let them use more then 1 potion use free action a turn) I could go on forever about why healing surges should not be removed, I could sugest instead that like you altered daily power recovery also alter healing surge recovery. Since you don't like players having to rest to recover healing surges then make a difrent way to recover them like perhaps whenever they recover dailies or any number of other things. Also as was pointed out to me there are ways to recover healing surges in game besides extended rests. Removing healing surges would have a large game balence issue on a huge number of effects
#20 Bandikoot May 04, 2010 21:41:35	While I think simply removing healing surges all together will probably create some unintended consequences, a number of which various people have already listed above, I can also see what you are trying to get at.  There are times where the 4 encounters then rest system stretches my suspension of disbelief to the breaking point in a dynamic system. For example, the PCs try to sneak into The Bad Dude's castle and get noticed halfway up the stairs.  They have  few fights and say "Rats, I'm out of healing surges.  We need to rest.  The maid's closet looks good."  Apparently all the guards and such are supposed to do nothing for the next 8 hours?  It's like smacking a hornets nest and then taking a nap under the tree.  You might try letting the PCs have infinte surges outside of combat, but those spent in combat must come from their predetermined amount.  It would still allow healing surges lost to diseases/failed skill challenges/etc to have some meaning, but it would also allow your party to have 8-10 fights between rests.  BTW, IIRC the potion bandolier just lets you retrieve one as a free action but you still have to do whatever to use it.
#21 brashnir May 04, 2010 23:34:55	Good post. You have a ton of points. I'll respond one thing at a time. One advantage not mentioned to the use of healing surges is that it helps to separate the beefier PCs from the runts. I'll write a short skit to show you how pointless this is. The PCs end an encounter... PC 1: Damn. That was a hard fight. PC 2: Yeah. Anyone need healing? PC 3: I do! But, that puts me down to 1 surge! We need to rest. PC 4: I'm still good with 8 surges. Barely hurt. Ha! PC 3: Yeah, like I said... I am at 1 surge. All PCs: Ok. Let's rest. DM: OK, you set up camp and... Just because the players decide to rest doesn't mean they'll always be able to.  There are plenty of situations where time or location will not allow an easy rest. Besides, if PC 3 has a surge left, he's more than good for another fight.  I've seen my players get through a combat where the entiry PARTY has two surges to start it.  Your players being pansies isn't an indictment of the surge system.
#22 stargazer_dragon May 05, 2010 1:06:39	I have read a ton about complaints that the 4 encounter rest set up that 4ed has doesn't make sence, though I don't mind things as they are you could remove the extended rest compleatly and simply say that after 4 encounteres you regain as if you had rested (though I prefer rechargabl powers and other alt rules)
#23 Krusk May 05, 2010 15:32:41	Really? Your players don't run out of healing surges? My rogues, and casters are always low. Heck sometimes my defenders even run out (paladins specifically, thanks to giving them away). Maybe I do it different than most? During each fight, each PC is going to spend anywhere from 1-3 healing surges. 4 of those in a day kicks us to 4 surges minimum per PC. Not including other random things that cost healing surges, like potions, and some special abilities. After each fight, I let them spend as many as they feel like, and they usually opt to go back to full, costing them another 1-2. So for 4 encounters a day, they are spending minimum 8 healing surges, but on average closer to 10-12. --------- Upside of your idea- Party doesn't care about how many encounters they do, keep chugging away as long as they have powers, and they don't have to track stuff. Downside- Your party has no real incentive to rest or end a day aside from daily powers. (Makes it harder to plan sessions as a DM) Overall I doubt it will mess with too much, and is probably fine to do.
#24 stargazer_dragon May 05, 2010 16:21:23	my players will fight with no surges and no dailies if the story makes sence for them to keap going, they rest normaly when I tell them eather this would be a greta spot ot rest or when I let them know there chars are fealing tired and need a rest, my players do try to reserv there dailies and surges in case they run into something realy tuff but next to never rest simply to recover them. As a dm I think not worring about extended rests is a pluss as it means they can plan extended rests purely on when it make sence to rest not when the party will need to recover there powers. Though I have ben running by book and only recently toying with rechargable powers I think I might also go ahead and use rechargable surges. I like the idea that player need to reserv there powers/ only use dailies when there actualy needed but I don't want the players to be to afraid to use dailies when they do need them that they wipe tring to save them, currently I recharge powers as such Racial power, recharge 6 Dm rolls at beginning of each round Encounter powers don't normaly recharge Daily powers recharge 6 after each combat (though might reduce the recharge for each aditional encounter that it does not recharge so after 4 encounters of not recharging it would be recharge 2 ) M thinking I might go with something like 1d6 surges recharging at each milestone so on average 3 healing surge every other fight. Not sure how my players would feal about it but think I will run a few test games (though goto wait till I get my group back together again) Was thinking using the above set up then make extended rest recover all HP and count as a encounter but otherwise recharge nothing automaticaly. This would make it so players wouldn't burn everything on those encounters where they are prety sure to have a rest afterwards. So say while traveling they go 2 days then run into a random encounter they know they will probably have a few more safe days of travel so they burn all there dailies and walk the encounter New set up, they travel 2 days run into the same encounter, they know they will probably have a few days rest before the next encounter but there not garenteed to recover there power so they use slightly more but for the most part they rely on encounters and such like usual Also makes the following not so bad, Ok we goto storm the fortress once we enter we won't be able to rest till we kill the boss grab the loot and get out,   Old rules after 4th or 6 encounter, damm I have no surges and all my daily powers are spent (rest of the group likewise prety spent)  we best find someplace to hide and rest or retreat New set up 10+ encounter in finaly at the boss worn but still with a daily or 2 in the group along with a few surges, This is going to be a tuff fight but were not outas everything. Ok so I ranted to much but I am sure people got the idea
#25 hauteclaire May 05, 2010 21:29:41	Well, I'm not exactly sure if you're asking for this house rule because you have a problem with your characters being too good for their challenges or if you want them to be able to push for more encounters than in the standard 4e campaign format. It sounds like you are motivated by the latter, but we cannot completely rule the former out either. Just know that ultimately, the decision is with yourself and how you want your game to feel; but the rules do have a strong impact on how the game is perceived. To illustrate, let us say you say that all players have unlimited healing surges. If that is the only houserule you make, then that means PCs can legitimately be at full hp after every encounter (assuming they survive the fight). This allows you to make incredibly intense, even brutal, encounters because players have to worry less about falling unconscious. They will then perceive themselves as considerably tougher, stronger, and more powerful than other PCs normally think of their characters. If you are aiming for a game packed with action, this is probably ideal; although I would caution that you pay attention to some class abilities that use healing surges and rewrite them so they don't break the game (some epic tier revive abilities). Another alternative is to provide unlimited healing surges, but limit the amount they they can heal between encounters (for example a value equal to half their hp total). This means that players who become bloodied are in more danger of falling unconscious and making death saves because their hp value begins at a lower value. It's a more moderate option that promotes a little more caution from the players , but still encourages them to go find the next fight since they may not become bloodied in the next encounter and be able to heal up to full again. The game may be more exciting as hurt players (those not at full hp) are more desperate to kill the enemies quickly and are less willing to take hits. However, they still feel more powerful because they are essentially taking on a large army of monsters without that full rest. A third option is to completely eliminate healing surges, so players cannot heal unless they use magic powers or magic items. They do not heal outside of combat unless they receive a full rest. Players are much more cautious with this rule and will likely all stock up on healing powers and items. They will also rest more often to recover those dailies necessary to recover their hp; a situation you have voiced displeasure towards. Saying you want to get rid of healing surges is fine and may even be enjoyable depending on the type of campaign, but you should account for how it will change the gameplay. It's only a little thing, but it can change a good action campaign to a great action campaign; or make a good campaign bad. Would you mind sharing how you plan to use the unlimited number of healing surges to help your players and augment their game experience?
#26 Igfig May 06, 2010 15:36:28	What about making healing surges a per-encounter instead of a per-day resource?  You'd retain both the resource management and the unlimited workday.  This is just off the top of my head (so it might not be balanced yet), but I see it working something like this: Fragile classes (like wizards and assassins) get 3 surges. Middling classes (like clerics and bards) get 4 surges. Tough classes (like fighters and barbarians) get 5 surges. At the end of a rest, your healing surges reset to full.  If, during a rest, you spend a healing surge on anything but immediate healing (e.g. recharging a healing infusion or surge-based item, using the Comrade's Succor ritual), you do not regain that surge until the transferred surge is expended. (Otherwise healing infusions would be way too good.) Optional rule: If you have no surges remaining but are offered the chance to spend a healing surge, you can accept a "major wound" (using the disease rules) to immediately regain and spend one healing surge.   (It's not super-common that you'll need to spend more than three surges in a battle, but if you do you shouldn't be stuck with a disadvantage that regular characters don't have.)
#27 maverick2k8 May 09, 2010 13:01:15	Good post. You have a ton of points. I'll respond one thing at a time. One advantage not mentioned to the use of healing surges is that it helps to separate the beefier PCs from the runts. I'll write a short skit to show you how pointless this is. The PCs end an encounter... PC 1: Damn. That was a hard fight. PC 2: Yeah. Anyone need healing? PC 3: I do! But, that puts me down to 1 surge! We need to rest. PC 4: I'm still good with 8 surges. Barely hurt. Ha! PC 3: Yeah, like I said... I am at 1 surge. All PCs: Ok. Let's rest. Additionally, it makes the leaders a bit more important.  Sure, they'll still be highly useful for their in-combat healing ability, but they are not nearly as useful due to the unlimited healing out of combat. In fact, the Bard Class Feature Song of Rest is rendered meaningless except for a few feats and items.  Certain feats are made obsolete by this as well (Restful Healing (or whatever it is) for example). I've never seen one player take the Restful Healing feat. Secondly, most of the time the players are taking a "longer" short rest to maximize their healing. There's only so many times a DM can "interrupt" the short rest. And, then, it's back to the maximizing. That's just plain simple smart moves by the players. The bard's class feature is of little effect here. Finally, the limit on surges does create a sense of tension in the campaign -- "Do we press on, despite being low on resources, or do we rest up and hope the hostages are not killed in the next 6 hours?"  In my personal experiences I've had the PCs roll the dice and go another encounter with little to no surges.  One instance in particular resulted in the fighter dying since he only had one surge at the start of combat. In my experiences, you must either press on or rest anyways. There's not a real choice here if the hostages are killed if we don't press on. We'll press on. Ok. ... No hostages? Ok. We'll rest. This is exactly what I'm talking about. And, again, as a DM, if I have to invent "time crunches" for every day of adventuring, that's not the system I want to use. On the flip side, doing away with the limit of surges makes it somewhat easier to design adventures/dungeons.  You no longer have to worry about "How far into the dungeon can my party get without resting?" and "Where do I need to give them a place to hole up?"  This does have the nice benefit of allowing the adventure to flow more freely. Exactly. Especially because I want to run a campaign _not_ set in a dungeon. To me, the big problem revolves around when the dailies refresh.  I think the PCs really need to know what conditions will trigger their refreshing in order to be able to strategize the combats.  If you know that you have at least 3 more encounters before you'll get a chance to rest, you'll be more conservative with your dailies.  OTOH, if you know that your powers will refresh after this fight, then you can let loose with everything you got. I've got a separate solution for Dailies which use a different refresh system entirely. In the end it really depends on your group.  If your players are never really low on surges, then removing the limit will not have a huge effect.  You should though give a boost of some sort to Bards since part of their balance is based on the Song of Rest class feature.  This is what I wanted to know. Thanks! I have yet to play 4e but from what you're saying that you are wishing they NEVER made 4E. All I have to say on this matter is they made healing surges to counter the fact that in laot of parties the cleric may not even be apart of the party and gave the party a way to heal up with out one.
#28 stargazer_dragon May 09, 2010 13:23:58	actualy they resolved the lack of a healer in many many many more ways then healing surges, healing surges were more then to balence all the extra healing they added into the game becouse without surge limit those healing powers could be used to great effect and make battles super easy, if they had the current set up with a number of healing surges then the game would have nearly infinate healing and a Ton of incombate healing, and without a healing surge value Which is what all there healing powers are based around you would have to rewrite a TON Anyhows to each there own